Does Zhan Zhuang make the legs strong?

[ChiDragon]

Yes, zhan zhuang does make the legs very strong. It is the practice that have the legs bent at an angle. It is the contraction of the legs muscles that build up the muscle tone. As result, it helps to the feet to root on the ground and have a better sense of balance. In MMA, a good boxer always have good postures by keeping the body in balance. Furthermore, one leg is always stay put on the floor/ground while the other leg is doing a powerful kick. 

I had stay why boxers win all the time by observing their leg work in the ring. I have observed that a good boxer is always alert and standing in a good horse stand. In addition, it is the breathing control that will help to last for the third round for the kill.

I will show some videos to demonstrate how one is handle the legs well and how some is not so good.

If you have any zhan zhuang experience would like to share, please do so. Thanks!

[ChiDragon]

This video shows the difference in legs strength between the two opponents. The one who kicks and spins the whole body around and fall down has poor leg work. Who bounces around too much will lose lots of energy. If one lose his balance most of the time, one will have weak punches. Thus it is so important to have good leg grounding for a good martial artist to handle the opponent. 

[ChiDragon]

On this video, I would keep my eyes on the legs and balance on both. One can almost predict who is going to be the winner. One can tell who has a kung fu body and who is not.

Edited September 20 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The leg work of a Chen style Taiji practitioner VS a taller regular boxer.

Edited September 20 by ChiDragon

[FluffyGuardian]

Generally speaking, Boxers and MMA fighters do not practice Zhan Zhuang, right?

So, I don't quite get why you'd try to use examples of martial arts that do not practice Zhan Zhuang.

 

That being said, Boxing has great footwork, and footwork is extremely important. 

But, Zhan Zhuang, by itself, does not teach footwork; the word literally translates to mean Standing Post. 

Whether Zhan Zhaung makes the leg strong or not would also depend on what kind of Zhan Zhuang we are talking about here. 

For example, in Taijiquan (such as modern Chen Village), you might see them teach the "tree-hugging" Zhan Zhuang. 

That... does not come from Taijiquan. That is rather modern, imported in. And, that does not develop root. It's too easy. 

The reason why they teach this is because they are teaching like 50-100 people in a workshop, and the teacher just wants to get paid. They don't want to go through each person 1 by 1 to teach something nuanced and detailed. So, they teach a very simple, standardized thing where they don't have to teach much. They may walk around, adjust a hand, talk about Qi, and get paid hundreds of bucks per person. That is why they teach "tree-hugging" Zhan Zhuang because that want something easy to teach and standardized. 

In Taijiquan, pretty much any posture in the form can be practiced as "Zhan Zhuang", and it would be more beneficial than "tree-hugging" zhan zhuang because there is more weight on one leg than the other. 
 

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, FluffyGuardian said:

Generally speaking, Boxers and MMA fighters do not practice Zhan Zhuang, right?

So, I don't quite get why you'd try to use examples of martial arts that do not practice Zhan Zhuang.

That being said, Boxing has great footwork, and footwork is extremely important. 

Good question, I knew someone might challenge that!
That is right, general speaking, boxers do not practice zhan zhuang. However, if they have practiced, then, they will have the advantage over the opponents in the ring. That is why you had made the last statement.

Edited September 21 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

32 minutes ago, FluffyGuardian said:

But, Zhan Zhuang, by itself, does not teach footwork; the word literally translates to mean Standing Post. 

Whether Zhan Zhaung makes the leg strong or not would also depend on what kind of Zhan Zhuang we are talking about here. 

For example, in Taijiquan (such as modern Chen Village), you might see them teach the "tree-hugging" Zhan Zhuang. 

Yes, zhan zhuang is standing on the posts. That is only the description of it. The purpose of standing on the posts with the legs bend and support the body weight. As result, it builds up the muscle tone of the legs. Zhan Zhuang is zhan zhuang, one can rest the hands to side or put them up in the air. It makes no difference, the legs are still bend at a different angle depends how long the practice has been done. To stand with the angle at 90 degree was the goal. Nowadays, not many people can come to that point. Unless one is a real master of kung fu.

The "tree-hugging" Zhan Zhuang is the standard posture in martial arts. I still would like emphasize on zhan zhuang that makes the legs are strong again. It is the practice is mainly on the legs. The contract of the legs muscle will develop muscle tone that will make the legs powerful. As a matter of fact, in Taiji, has the effect of Zhan Zhuang. In most Taiji moves, it require to stand on one leg while lifting the other. One leg has to take the weight of the body as opposed to two legs in zhan zhuang. Hence the weight was doubled on one legs. In return, it puts more stress on one leg. The leg has to react with more contraction to resist the double weight.

Edited September 21 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

45 minutes ago, FluffyGuardian said:

That... does not come from Taijiquan. That is rather modern, imported in. And, that does not develop root. It's too easy. 

Believe it or not, rooting comes with the package of Taiji. You will know what I meant if you have practiced Taiji long enough. Besides, Taiji also makes the hands and arms stronger too. It was the muscle tone that generates the body energy. I think in the third video, one can see the body and leg strength of the Chen Taiji practitioner. 

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, FluffyGuardian said:

But, Zhan Zhuang, by itself, does not teach footwork; the word literally translates to mean Standing Post. 

The original idea of zhan zhuang was really standing on post. So, only some part of the foot is touching the post. It is much harder to keep in balance for a beginner. In order to stay in balance, the practitioner must shift the body weight to the center. That is where the rooting training comes into play. Nowadays, it is too easy for the practitioner to stay in balance by standing with two feet flat on the ground. 

Edited September 21 by ChiDragon

[FluffyGuardian]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Believe it or not, rooting comes with the package of Taiji. You will know what I meant if you have practiced Taiji long enough. Besides, Taiji also makes the hands and arms stronger too. It was the muscle tone that generates the body energy. I think in the third video, one can see the body and leg strength of the Chen Taiji practitioner. 

 

So I am a Chen Taiji practitioner. 

 

However, "Zhan Zhuang" in this particular lineage is so physically demanding that a person won't really last for more than several seconds. There's a very precise alignment and connection unique to this line that hurts like hell. 

 

To put it into context, there are Chen Taiji teachers from other lines who cannot last a fraction of a sequence in the form of this line.

Even a bodybuilder on steriods have struggled to hold a stance for more than several seconds. 

Whether it's an MMA guy, BJJ guy, or whatever athletic background, it's quite interesting how other physical activities (that may even have Zhan Zhuang) does not carry over to this particular way of standing. I have seen people from all kinds of backgrounds trying this out... they all suffer the same fate.

A single sequence of the form is more physically demanding than someone else's entire form. There are teachers who can practice the Chen Taiji form for 40-50 minutes in their own form... yet they cannot even last a single sequence in this form.

So it's quite unique because normally, people would try to practice Zhan Zhuang by holding a stance for like 20-60 minutes. But from our perspective, if a stance can be held for that long, it's too easy, at least based on our method.

Ours is more like 10-30 seconds. 

As a consequence of this practice, although people may say that Taiji has "rooting", from my perspective, most Taiji does not have "root" based on my understanding of "root".

I think for some people, the word "root" and "Sinking" kind of mean the same thing to them. For me, those are two different words with different meanings. Some people can sink, but does not have a root by my standard.

[ChiDragon]

24 minutes ago, FluffyGuardian said:

So I am a Chen Taiji practitioner. 

 

However, "Zhan Zhuang" in this particular lineage is so physically demanding that a person won't really last for more than several seconds. There's a very precise alignment and connection unique to this line that hurts like hell. 

 

To put it into context, there are Chen Taiji teachers from other lines who cannot last a fraction of a sequence in the form of this line.

OK, now, I know why you responded to the thread the way you did. What you are telling me was that no one had practiced Zhan Zhuang yet. I will continue after dinner.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, FluffyGuardian said:

So I am a Chen Taiji practitioner. 

 

However, "Zhan Zhuang" in this particular lineage is so physically demanding that a person won't really last for more than several seconds. There's a very precise alignment and connection unique to this line that hurts like hell. 

 

To put it into context, there are Chen Taiji teachers from other lines who cannot last a fraction of a sequence in the form of this line.

Even a bodybuilder on steriods have struggled to hold a stance for more than several seconds. 
 

First of all, no one can stand the pain in the zhan zhuang position without practiced for sometime. Even just practiced Taiji in the first three months, the movements alone, the leg muscles are very painful. Eventually, the pain will go away after the muscle are used to the stress from contraction.

 

In Taiji, moving the legs one at a time, the stress is only applied to one leg at a time. However, in zhan zhuang, constant stress was placed on both legs. The level of pain depends on the bending angle of the thighs. The lower the angle of the thighs, the more pain there is. The smaller the angle of the thighs with respect to the vertical, it will cause less  pain. Hence, beginners should start with a small angle to have less pain to begin with.

[ChiDragon]

I had practice the Yang style Taiji for about fifty years by now.

This is yours truly. Doing Zhan Zhuang on a slanted 2x4

[FluffyGuardian]

24 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

First of all, no one can stand the pain in the zhan zhuang position without practiced for sometime. Even just practiced Taiji in the first three months, the movements alone, the leg muscles are very painful. Eventually, the pain will go away after the muscle are used to the stress from contraction.

 

In Taiji, moving the legs one at a time, the stress is only applied to one leg at a time. However, in zhan zhuang, constant stress was placed on both legs. The level of pain depends on the bending angle of the thighs. The lower the angle of the thighs, the more pain there is. The smaller the angle of the thighs with respect to the vertical, it will cause less  pain. Hence, beginners should start with a small angle to have less pain to begin with.

Sure, but perhaps you missed the part of what I wrote where even experienced Taiji practitioners who are teachers themselves who have been doing this for decades... also can't do it in this lineage-specific method I am referring to.

What you said is true for beginners and for the mainstream approaches to Zhan Zhuang. But... even those who aren't beginners, where the pain went away in their own approach, will pretty much have to start over from scratch with this specific method. 

I am not trying to say that this approach is right and others are wrong. I am merely pointing out the reality which most people tend to not believe until they experience it themselves. 

What I am referring to is lineage-specific; you don't know this approach and I don't mean that as an attack. 

In what I am referring to, the pain won't go away in three months. Because there's a vicious positive feedback loop where the stronger one gets, the more precise their stance can become, the more precise they become, the more it hurts, the more it hurts, the stronger they become, and so on... The configuration changes over time, and it's not as simple as height of the stance. 
 

Edited September 21 by FluffyGuardian

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, FluffyGuardian said:

Sure, but perhaps you missed the part of what I wrote where even experienced Taiji practitioners who are teachers themselves who have been doing this for decades... also can't do it in this lineage-specific method I am referring to.

I didn't miss this part. I was saving it for last. Sorry to say, it would be an insult if I have to respond to this. In my opinion, if a teacher had practice Taiji for decades and cannot overcome the pain, it seems that the practitioner has not accomplished what Taiji has to offer.

[FluffyGuardian]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I didn't miss this part. I was saving it for last. Sorry to say, it would be an insult if I have to respond to this. In my opinion, if a teacher had practice Taiji for decades and cannot overcome the pain, it seems that the practitioner has not accomplished what Taiji has to offer.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing. 

But, if someone practices Zhan Zhuang and stops feeling pain after 3 months. Well... that's the extent of its value. That is the extent of its depth. 

 

Gongfu demands being pushed to one's limit, and in our philosophy, we chase after that which is difficult. 

 

If a practitioner has not accomplished what the system has to offer... that's great! That means there's room to progress. 

If something no longer challenges you... well... progress is slower or it's just maintenance. 

[Krenx]

You can either make it strong, or make it empty. There are different kinds of standing practice to achieve different goals. 

[FluffyGuardian]

If we consider two scenarios:

1. 3-Month Zhan-Zhuang - A person experiences pain for up to three months. 
2. Forever-Pain Zhan-Zhuang - A person endlessly feels pain through constant adjustments as they get stronger.

Of course, it's easy to say that the "Forever-Pain" Zhan-Zhuang makes the practitioner feel inadequate for not being able to get what the art has to offer in terms of leg foundation. 

 

However, to practice something only to realize it can be done even harder, and then repeatedly transform the body, is a sign of depth. 

 

The person who practices this "forever-pain Zhan-Zhuang" who does it for 3 years and still feels pain might sound stupid. But, they end up with massively stronger legs and root than the 3-month Zhan-Zhuang practitioner who no longer feels challenged.  

 

However, when I brought this up, people may assume it was the fault of the practitioner being mysteriously weak. The mere notion that there could exist such a method with the depth to feel pain for decades seems impossible. 

However, think about this logically. Is it realistic to think that every single human being who tried this, from the young to the old, short vs tall, light vs heavy, thin vs muscular, etc... are all losers?

 

The guy who does Boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA (having won tournaments), who tried this for several years... and still screams in pain... does he have some genetic mutation that causes him to have very fragile legs for the rest of his life?

It's easy to blame the person for being pathetic, but in that case... virtually every Taiji "master" is pathetic. They will suffer the same fate; they just never came across it before.

 

The real mystery isn't the practitioner. The real mystery is what the heck is this practice method that endlessly provides a challenge even over a decade? The pathetic loser who is suffering in this method ends up having astronomically stronger legs than the guy who is no longer challenged after 3 months. The depth of this practice is just very hard to believe. 

 

Do I feel foolish with this practice? Absolutely! 

 

Can Taiji practitioners of other schools do anything to me? Not really. And it's very satisfying to watch the stuff they thought would work fail in front of their eyes.  

And to be clear, I am not saying that this is the "one and only way" that Zhan Zhuang ought to be. Some people do it for other reasons, like meditation. Historically, Buddhism had standing meditation practices. For me, I am miserably doing it for Gongfu and questioning my life choices.
 

Edited September 21 by FluffyGuardian

[forestofclarity]

56 minutes ago, FluffyGuardian said:

 

1. 3-Month Zhan-Zhuang - A person experiences pain for up to three months. 
2. Forever-Pain Zhan-Zhuang - A person endlessly feels pain through constant adjustments as they get stronger.

 

I feel these may have different goals. For many people, it is difficult to relax and open with a lot of pain and this may end up causing people to "harden" in a way that may be inconsistent with certain styles of practice that focus on opening, relaxing, and listening. On the other hand, this harder style may be just the thing for someone who wants a high pain tolerance and/or wants to be a fighter.

 

 

[Master Logray]

I think perpetual pain is badly wrong for that system, provided everything is the same i.e. if you have no pain, then go lower, pain comes back, get used to it, no pain, it is normal.  If the person due to many reasons, cannot utilize this system, then it is better to adjust or even abandon it.

 

How the leg comes into being discussed.  ZZ is mainly for alignment or sinking Chi, sometimes for meditation.  Leg strength can be trained in 1 month, and not necessarily by Taichi or ZZ.  Body strength or even neck strength in ZZ does require more time.  

[FluffyGuardian]

2 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I feel these may have different goals. For many people, it is difficult to relax and open with a lot of pain and this may end up causing people to "harden" in a way that may be inconsistent with certain styles of practice that focus on opening, relaxing, and listening. On the other hand, this harder style may be just the thing for someone who wants a high pain tolerance and/or wants to be a fighter.

 

 

 

You're right. What I have described is not for everyone.

 

When it comes to relaxation and meditation, with this approach, one of the challenges is to relax under physical duress. This is very different than most Taiji practices, where they seek out that which is easy and simple. 

 

But consider the monks who can control their breath in the midst of very frigid temperatures and those whose breath control allows them to dive into arctic waters. Consider Takigyo, the iconic practice of meditating under the crushing weight of a frigid waterfall.

 

Let me ask you: Do you think they reached that level by being relaxed in a sauna? Of course not. They reached that level because their ability to control their breath and relax was actively being challenged.

 

In that kind of practice, the value is derived from being able to relax and control one’s breath while under duress.

 

Rather than viewing pain as a sign that you do not have enough relaxation, the actual method is to “relax” while being in pain. The ability to relax while under physical duress is where the value of relaxation comes from. The times when you need to relax the most are the times when you are least relaxed.

[FluffyGuardian]

21 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I think perpetual pain is badly wrong for that system, provided everything is the same i.e. if you have no pain, then go lower, pain comes back, get used to it, no pain, it is normal.  If the person due to many reasons, cannot utilize this system, then it is better to adjust or even abandon it.

 

How the leg comes into being discussed.  ZZ is mainly for alignment or sinking Chi, sometimes for meditation.  Leg strength can be trained in 1 month, and not necessarily by Taichi or ZZ.  Body strength or even neck strength in ZZ does require more time.  

 

Historically, Yang Banhou of the Yang Family ran away from home because of how harsh his training was. The same story also occurred for some in the Chen Family.

 

In the Western world, we might call that child abuse. 

 

But that did not last for only the first 1-3 months. 

 

But hey... maybe fathers in those families just really hate their sons or something. Maybe those fathers were badly wrong in their teachings.

 

Edited September 21 by FluffyGuardian

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, FluffyGuardian said:

 

Historically, Yang Banhou of the Yang Family ran away from home because of how harsh his training was. The same story also occurred for some in the Chen Family.

 

In the Western world, we might call that child abuse. 

 

But that did not last for only the first 1-3 months. 

 

But hey... maybe fathers in those families just really hate their sons or something. Maybe those fathers were badly wrong in their teachings.

 

 

Jacky Chan too.    I think in the Sifu or fathers' mind, that I have endured all those inhuman conditions, now it is your turn to pay.   It happens to many other professions too.

[FluffyGuardian]

53 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Jacky Chan too.    I think in the Sifu or fathers' mind, that I have endured all those inhuman conditions, now it is your turn to pay.   It happens to many other professions too.

 

I think Jackie Chan's case is quite extreme, but on the flip side, he credits that bitter experience to his success. 

If Jackie Chan never went through that... I'm not convinced he'd be able to do all the dangerous things in his movies. As awful as his experience was... the results speak for themselves.

Chinese culture is just... different. And there are aspects of it that I am not a fan of. 

 

In weightlifting, it's the repetitions where you are near your limit that give the most value. That is why some people say that they have a mindset where they don't start counting until they reach their limit first. The earlier, easier reps are essentially a warm-up for this "growth zone."

It'd be rather silly to say that lifting 20 lbs. is correct, but lifting 30 lbs. is wrong. 

[ChiDragon]

16 hours ago, FluffyGuardian said:

So I am a Chen Taiji practitioner. 

Question: I know the Chen style Taiji is more stressful than the Yang style. Do you feel any pain on your upper thigh of one leg during the transition when you lift up the other leg?