The Serpent Which Came Forth

[心神 ~]

In reference to the Pyramid Texts - Utterance 237/238 (in the tomb of Unas):
 

Quote

"The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen."

 

This seems to be an inversion of the "natural" cosmic order in which the serpent of chaos succeeds and prevents Ra's dawn flame, the defeat of light reborn.

 

In earlier, goddess-centered myths, the serpent is associated with water, earth, fertility as an emblem of life’s cyclical, regenerative force: continuity, not chaos. But in patriarchal solar theologies (Ra, later Greek Apollo), the serpent shifts toward an adversary role. It becomes the “dark, feminine, watery” threat that must be subdued by the sun, the spear, the order of the sky.

 

So if identified with the divine feminine, the serpent's rising could be an older current surfacing, the submerged feminine chaos reclaiming primacy, and the dethroning of a more rigid solar order. To call its rise lamentable assumes the solar order is the unquestioned good. To call it exalted assumes that overturning order is inherently liberatory. The fact that both the serpent and the flame arise from the watery depths of Nun strikes me as interesting. Sibling energy, both sourced from the same cosmic womb.

 

What is your personal view of the serpent, @Nungali? How do you read this process? Is your version meant to be an inversion of the original text? Or a reinterpretation? Is what's described an act of destruction or correction? A rebalancing? A release of repression and subconscious energy? Deep renewal through reversal? Is this a lament for lost light, an exaltation of the goddess's return, an overall celebration of the overturning of cosmic order?

 

What was the original purpose of the text? Was it a protective spell? A warning in it's own historical context? Was the message intended for the people or for the serpent? I notice in these translations, the serpent comes from the earth and the light comes from the water depths. 

 

Quote

“The cobra that came from the earth has fallen, the fire that came from Nu has fallen. Fall down, crawl away!”
(James P. Allen (2005), Internet Archive)

 

Quote

“The serpent which came forth from the earth is fallen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen. Fall; glide away.”
(S. A. B. Mercer (1952), Internet Archive)

 

Quote

“The cobra that came from the earth has fallen; the fire that came from Nu has fallen. Fall down, crawl away!”).
(R. O. Faulkner (1969), Brill)

 

Quote

“Fall, serpent that came forth from the Earth! Fall, flame that came forth from Nun! Fall down! Crawl away!”
(Sofiatopia)

 

 

Edit: Water Above Fire was an interesting thread to visit after posting this.

 

 

Edited Friday at 03:12 PM by 心神 ~

[Nungali]

For a more 'traditional' view ( ie. Egyptian )  tag Apech . 

 

Regarding what you asked about my personal view :

 

' The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen. ' 

 

'' How do you read this process? Is your version meant to be an inversion of the original text?  ( yes, in a way ) Or a reinterpretation?  (yes )  Is what's described an act of destruction or correction?  ( a reinterpretation of it in light of indigenous teachings ) A rebalancing? ( I hope so ... who the heck knows what those far ancient Egyptians  really thought ... again ask Apech )  )  A release of repression and subconscious energy? Deep renewal through reversal? Is this a lament for lost light,  ( no )   an exaltation of the goddess's return,  ( exaltation of her being ever present )  an overall celebration of the overturning of cosmic order? ( a celebration of cosmic order ). 

 

The earth serpent is Ungud , the 'Rainbow Serpent '  creator spirit .  It 'rose'  , 'looked up', became receptive ,  'desired '  .  The 'flame' is life  but in this story is water  ( the water of life )  it comes from  Nun / Nuit / night sky, stars and space ; Wallenganda , the black snake ( the dark part winding through the river in the  Milky Way ) the  river in the night sky ; the stars either side being the campfires of Wallenganda's children camped along the river banks . 

 

Ungud  reflects on his barrenness  and admires Wallenganda . Wallenganda responds by spitting some of her water down onto Ungud , he takes it underground and 'The Dreamtime'  starts . . .  life comes forth .  ( I have written the myth out a lot fuller many times here ... if the search engine works for you ) .

 

of course, this way pre-dates the Egyptian versions   .... one of their stories in the Hermopolitan creation cycle is two frogs  ( and also  male and female pairs of frogs and snakes  - which brings to mind  marriage laws requiring  people to only pair with a different animal totem - moiety . ) 

 

Some think it signifies  water and  life coming to a barren earth via an ice comet  strike .  It may also represent a memory of moving out of the time of 'The Great Drought'  ( the end of the Ice Age  ....  cold temps ,  water turns to ice and less rain  - desert ,  warm temps  ice melts, more rain - fertility .

[Apech]

8 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

In reference to the Pyramid Texts - Utterance 237/238 (in the tomb of Unas):
 

 

This seems to be an inversion of the "natural" cosmic order in which the serpent of chaos succeeds and prevents Ra's dawn flame, the defeat of light reborn.

 

In earlier, goddess-centered myths, the serpent is associated with water, earth, fertility as an emblem of life’s cyclical, regenerative force: continuity, not chaos. But in patriarchal solar theologies (Ra, later Greek Apollo), the serpent shifts toward an adversary role. It becomes the “dark, feminine, watery” threat that must be subdued by the sun, the spear, the order of the sky.

 

So if identified with the divine feminine, the serpent's rising could be an older current surfacing, the submerged feminine chaos reclaiming primacy, and the dethroning of a more rigid solar order. To call its rise lamentable assumes the solar order is the unquestioned good. To call it exalted assumes that overturning order is inherently liberatory. The fact that both the serpent and the flame arise from the watery depths of Nun strikes me as interesting. Sibling energy, both sourced from the same cosmic womb.

 

What is your personal view of the serpent, @Nungali? How do you read this process? Is your version meant to be an inversion of the original text? Or a reinterpretation? Is what's described an act of destruction or correction? A rebalancing? A release of repression and subconscious energy? Deep renewal through reversal? Is this a lament for lost light, an exaltation of the goddess's return, an overall celebration of the overturning of cosmic order?

 

What was the original purpose of the text? Was it a protective spell? A warning in it's own historical context? Was the message intended for the people or for the serpent? I notice in these translations, the serpent comes from the earth and the light comes from the water depths. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Water Above Fire was an interesting thread to visit after posting this.

 

 

 

Hello I can't help but answer this since the Pyramid Texts of Unas are something of a specialist subject for me (or were when I was studying Egypt).

 

@Nungali has for some reason changed the quote - to give a slightly different meaning as indicated in the translations you quote.  So his meaning is specific to him (no less valid though).

 

I checked Sethe's original transcription for what is called Utterance 233 (lines 237/8) just to see what they were saying.  Old Kingdom Egyptian is like a no frills version and so there is very little context or explanation in the text.  But you can gain some context etc. by seeing where these texts were placed in the pyramid structure.  In this case they are on the West gable of the sarcophagus chamber - and are part of a series of 'spells' against inimical beings.  That is 'entities' or forces which act against the the process being undertaken in the pyramid (which is one of transformation and 'rebirth' as a spiritual being called an 'akh'.)  The words are intended to be spoken to ward off these negative forces.  These types of spells occur twice in the Pyramid once here on the West gable above the sarcophagus and once on the East wall of the akhet chamber (that is on the opposite end of the pyramid chambers so they reflect each other).  So there are two instances in the process which takes place in the pyramid where negative forces have to be warded off.

 

Translated without interpretation the text says:

 

To be spoken:  Falls down the serpent from the earth, Falls down the flame from the Nun (primeval waters), Fall down, slither away.

 

We have to break this down a bit to see what they were saying.  First as I said it is a spell to be spoken out loud and its purpose is to ward off a negative force.  One of the ways the Egyptians denoted negative forces was by a state of inversion.  So there is a right order for things (ma'at) and there is its invert which is negative/evil.  So the first two lines describe a negative state which has arisen.  That is the serpent has fallen and the flame has fallen.  This describes a negative state.  Why because serpents like the uraeus (Egypt. Iaret ) literally means 'risen up one' and obviously also flames rise, they don't fall.  I think also that the word flame or fire which has the determinative of a torch is referring to light rather than heat.  So it is referencing light = awareness which has fallen back into the primeval waters which are dark (kek).  

 

So if you imagine that the right (ma'at) state of things would be a risen serpent (like the cobra on the brow of the king) and light emerging from darkness.  But because of the interference of inimical beings/forces the opposite has happened and this needs to be addressed.  The way this is done is to turn back the negative force onto itself.  Like saying 'you made these things fall, now you fall!'.  This symmetry is very Egyptian.

 

So the last part of the spell is saying to the negative being 'You fall! and slither away!' (or you fall slitherer)

 

In fact the very last word 'sbn' (slither) gives us a clue to which category of beings is being addressed - it is that of the Sebau fiends ... or Slithering beings.  This refers to forces of dissolution or perhaps wasteful energy loss.  Like for instance lustful thoughts and the like which drain energy.

 

So my rather free translation would be:

 

"You who made the earth serpent fall, who made the flame from Nun fall; You fall and slither away!!!"

 

 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

What would be cool here is if there were crossover between egypt and india.

 

Enough so that the serpent who resides at the base of the spine in hinduism were comparable with egypts own rising serpent. Hindus version of this may also be associated with rising fire, if I remember right.

 

Similar to how Moses descends Mount Sinai to find israelites engaging in cow idol worship (golden calf) not so dissimilar to hindu cow worship.

Edited yesterday at 02:19 AM by Sanity Check

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

What would be cool here is if there were crossover between egypt and india.

 

There is .  But 'India' is a more recent development  -   check Egypt's trade with Harrapa  ( Indus Valley ) . 

 

 

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Enough so that the serpent who resides at the base of the spine in hinduism were comparable with egypts own rising serpent. Hindus version of this may also be associated with rising fire, if I remember right.

 

That is a more modern association , some claim all sorts of things  about ancient Egyptian lore  .... its mostly obscure  and ,as Apech pointed out, interpretation relies heavily on context  and  context takes time to study . 

 

A rearing or rising snake  is a common observation and analogy in many cultures .

 

 

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Similar to how Moses descends Mount Sinai to find israelites engaging in cow idol worship (golden calf) not so dissimilar to hindu cow worship.

 

And not so dissimilar to any ancient people that did herding . 

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

And not so dissimilar to any ancient people that did herding . 

 

 

 

Did they develop agriculture independent of each other.

 

Or did they cooperate and share knowledge.

 

If they shared knowledge, perhaps they shared info on other things as well.

 

Its just basic science.

Edited yesterday at 06:52 AM by Sanity Check

[Surya]

Interresting read lads, I’d like to throw in what the serpent might represent in a proposed recreation of proto indo European myth:

 

In Proto-Indo-European mythology, a cattle-stealing serpent named *{Ngwhi} (also Nghi or *{H₂n̥gʷʰis}) was both a mythological figure and the root of the modern word for "negation" (ne-). This primordial serpent was slain by the first warrior, *{Trito} ('Third Man'), who recovered the stolen cattle, an act that established the cycle of giving and world order. This fundamental myth of a hero defeating a serpent to release waters or treasures appears across various Indo-European cultures
 

(AI summary)

 

Edit:

For a deeper understanding, here’s a link to Bruce Lincoln’s paper on the cattle raiding myth: 

 

edit two: link not working. Google his name and cattle raiding myth and you’ll find it.

Edited yesterday at 04:46 PM by Surya

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Did they develop agriculture independent of each other.

 

Or did they cooperate and share knowledge.

 

If they shared knowledge, perhaps they shared info on other things as well.

 

Its just basic science.

 

Agriculture spread out from the fertile crescent (i.e. south Turkey/Anatolia, the Levant and Mesopotamia) and Egypt etc were early adopters.  There is no doubt that transfer of tech includes transfer of culture.

 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

… culture.

 

Ancient Egyptians used eyeliner to represent the eye of some god(s) and evoke their protection. The eyeliner contained lead and/or antimony both highly toxic, can cause long-term damage to the brain and kidneys.  Reminds me of the ancient Chinese 外丹  (wai4 dan1) Waidan; external alchemy (producing highly toxic ‘immortality’ potions).

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:56 PM by Cobie

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Ancient Egyptians used eyeliner to represent the eye of some god(s) and evoke their protection. The eyeliner contained lead and/or antimony both highly toxic, can cause long-term damage to the brain and kidneys.  Reminds me of the ancient Chinese 外丹  (wai4 dan1) Waidan; external alchemy (producing highly toxic ‘immortality’ potions).

 

 

Horus being the god in question.  I don’t know though given their culture lasted over 3000 years that it was that harmful.  Similarly the Chinese culture is now even older - so some secret in this use of heavy metals maybe?

[Cobie]

Back on topic. “The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.” That means his penis has risen and his brain has fallen in the gutter.  

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:14 PM by Cobie

[Apech]

29 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Back on topic. “The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.” That means his penis has risen and his brain has fallen in the gutter.  

 

 

 Well actually that’s pretty close!

[心神 ~]

 

Thank you so much for your perspectives, @Nungali and @Apech. I know very little about Egyptian culture and this is my first time encountering the Rainbow Serpent / Dreamtime myths, but I'm looking forward to learning more about both. I'm fascinated by cross-cultural serpent (particularly serpent goddess) motifs.

 

I've been looking into some of the overlaps. I've spent time the most time with Sumerian, Israelite, and a tiny bit of Chinese cosmologies. The rest I need to study more deeply to have a better framework, but these are a few of the serpent cosmologies:

 

Mesopotamia

 

Spoiler

 

Anunnaki (Sumerian/Akkadian): divine council, offspring of An, beings who “decree fates,” walk among humans, and later judge in the underworld. Enki taught civilization: irrigation, agriculture, herding, crafts, practical tech; bestowed the "me": institutions and skills (kingship, priesthood, weaving, music, law, rites); and instructed in rituals and fixes: medicine, exorcism, construction

 

Ningishzida / Ninazu: serpent-lord with staff, linked to vegetation, underworld, and mediation between realms

 

Tiamat & Mušḫuššu: dragon/serpent chaos beings subdued but still central to creation order

 

 

Levant / Israelite-Jewish
 

Spoiler

 

Genesis 6 (sons of God/Nephilim): divine descent, human interbreeding, hybrid offspring

 

Book of Enoch (Watchers): angels/sky-beings descend, mate with humans, teach forbidden arts (metallurgy, astronomy, enchantments), judged and bound underground

 

Leviathan / Lotan: primordial chaos serpent subdued by Yahweh/Baal — parallels Mesopotamian combat myths with cosmic-serpent centrality

 

 

Mesoamerica
 

Spoiler

 

Quetzalcóatl / Kukulkán (Aztec/Maya): feathered serpent culture-bringer, teacher of maize, calendar, astronomy, ritual; sky descent and return motifs

 

Xiuhcoatl (“fire serpent”): solar/weapon serpent tied to royal power, cyclical time, cosmic warfare

 

 

South America

 

Spoiler

 

Amaru (Andean/Quechua-Aymara): double-headed serpent linking sky and underworld, bearer of rain and cosmic bridges

 

Yacumama / Boiúna (Amazonian/Brazilian): giant anaconda-serpent, river mother, progenitor and punisher, linked to shamanic visions

 

 

China

 

Spoiler

 

Nüwa & Fuxi: human-headed, serpent-bodied siblings who repair heaven, create/order humankind, teach culture, marriage, and writing

 

Long (dragons): cosmic dragon-serpents controlling rain, sovereignty, fertility, tied to imperial mandate

 

 

South Asia

 

Spoiler

 

Nāgas (India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, etc.): serpent kings dwelling in underworld/waters, guardians of treasures and scriptures, intermarrying with humans, granting knowledge

 

Śeṣa / Ananta: world-serpent supporting creation; Vishnu rests upon coils, creation emerges from serpent

 

Manasā (Bengal): serpent goddess of healing, poison/anti-poison, life-death liminality

 

 

Southeast Asia

 

Spoiler

 

Phaya Naga (Thailand/Laos/Cambodia): Mekong river serpents, rain-bringers, patrons of kingship, linked to temple building

 

Antaboga (Java/Bali): primordial world-serpent creator

 

Nāga Basuki: guardian serpent under mountains/temples

 

 

Australia / Oceania

 

Spoiler

 

Ungud & Wallenganda (Kimberley, WA): earth-serpent + Milky Way sky-serpent; creation begins when sky waters earth

 

Rainbow Serpents (Ngalyod, Wititj, Wanampi, etc.): pan-continental creation beings shaping rivers, mountains, law, fertility, and moieties

 

Mo‘o (Hawai‘i): serpent/lizard guardians of ponds, shapeshifting beings tied to rain and fertility

 

Taniwha (Māori, NZ): serpentine river/sea guardians, protective or punishing, tied to clan law

 

 

Africa

 

Spoiler

 

Da / Aido-Hwedo (Fon, Benin/Togo): rainbow serpent upholding earth, shaping land

 

Ọ̀ṣùmare (Yoruba, Nigeria): rainbow serpent cycling waters, fertility, continuity

 

Idemili (Igbo, Nigeria): python goddess, law, ethics, water

 

Nyaminyami (Zambezi, Zambia/Zimbabwe): river-serpent god, protector, punisher of disruption

 

Lébé (Dogon, Mali): ancestral serpent renewing fertility; priests ritually embody serpent ancestor

 

 

Europe

 

Spoiler

 

Ophion (Greek Orphic): serpent entwined around world-egg, cosmogonic father

 

Asclepius (Greek/Roman): serpent-staff, healing, knowledge

 

Veles (Slavic): underworld/water serpent-god, cyclic contest with sky-god Perun, keeper of law and wealth

 

Žaltys (Baltic, Lithuania/Latvia): sacred household serpent, fertility and luck, consort to sun goddess

 

Sugaar (Basque): serpent consort of goddess Mari, storms and fertility, cosmic pair law

 

 

I'm really interested in how all of these myths / motifs developed and what it means for our shared histories. The myths are strikingly similar in terms of sky-linked or subterranean partly-other beings that descend or rise, teach ritual, crafts, and laws to humanity, significantly shape the landscape, and then withdraw (but remain present as judge, guardian, subterranean power, etc).

 

Read together, it almost seems like ancestral encounters with a superior reptilian-like presence were encoded in local idioms (serpent bodies, hybrid iconography, songlines, temple rites) and preserved as foundational narrative memory. 

 

What do you think? What are some mythic details that support this? Or what are alternative considerations that undercut the idea?

 

Edited yesterday at 09:14 PM by 心神 ~

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Did they develop agriculture independent of each other.

 

Who ?  IVC and ancient Egypt ?   I would say there was some element of  independence and both got influence  from Mesopotamia.  But back at the far era of agricultural development , I dont think there was direct evidence  of influence on each other . Agriculture arose independently in a few places , It did not arise in  Mesopotamia  and then spread to everywhere else .

 

 

14 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Or did they cooperate and share knowledge.

 

When ?  See above and see my comments previous about trade .

 

 

14 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

If they shared knowledge, perhaps they shared info on other things as well.

 

Shared information about things other than knowledge ?  Errrmmm     what  ?  

 

 

14 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Its just basic science.

 

What is 'just basic science'   ?  

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Agriculture spread out from the fertile crescent (i.e. south Turkey/Anatolia, the Levant and Mesopotamia) and Egypt etc were early adopters.  There is no doubt that transfer of tech includes transfer of culture.

 

 

 

 

 

Some indigenous farming practices started in the and around the Nile valley before the Mesopotamian influences arrived . 

 

However it intensified  and a greater variety came about after Mesopotamian influences .

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/agriculture/The-Nile-valley

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_agriculture#Beginnings_of_agriculture

 

AI ;  ' 

AI Overview

 

The development of agriculture in ancient Egypt was significantly influenced by a prior Neolithic diffusion of agricultural practices and domesticated animals from West Asia around 9000 BCE, which predates specific Mesopotamian cultural influences that appeared later in the fourth millennium BCE

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Ancient Egyptians used eyeliner to represent the eye of some god(s) and evoke their protection. The eyeliner contained lead and/or antimony both highly toxic, can cause long-term damage to the brain and kidneys.  Reminds me of the ancient Chinese 外丹  (wai4 dan1) Waidan; external alchemy (producing highly toxic ‘immortality’ potions).

 

 

 

It had various other purposes to ,   it was often a harsh environment with bright Sun and reflection from sand and water .  And the 'toxicity' also had a claimed health benefit    . 

 

However , the young lady here that had an exotic beauty products business did return from the area  with  fancy little turned wooden pots of the substance and started selling it to her  internet 'friends and followers '  ( iue customers   ) . I asked her what it was like and she said  '' It stings a bit at first but then you get used to it . ''  

 

     people and their beauty products !   Do  you know why people use beauty products ?  

 

Spoiler

because they think they are ugly and smell bad  

 

  

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Horus being the god in question.  I don’t know though given their culture lasted over 3000 years that it was that harmful.  Similarly the Chinese culture is now even older - so some secret in this use of heavy metals maybe?

 

Maybe they didnt live long enough for the long term effects    

 

here is  curious  'fact'  

 

• Nitric oxide boosts the immune response in the eye area, helping to fight off bacteria and protect against eye infections. 

• Kohl was made from galena (lead sulfide), a substance that, in small doses, triggered the production of nitric oxide. 

 

Ohhh Man !  My eyes are sore .... again !  

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

Back on topic. “The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.” That means his penis has risen and his brain has fallen in the gutter.  

 

 

 

'One ' wonders why  this little gem has not been edited it out by its author yet  ?  

 

I will have you know, young lady , that I am well past  womenopause .   I know it has passed as it is indicated by a strange sensation that starts at the 'nether regions' and slowly rises through the centers  up to the cranium .    - it is the brain rising to its rightful position .

 

It happens in old age . 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 Well actually that’s pretty close!

 

< takes notepad out from under the rowboat seat .... makes a note of this for 'future reference'  .  > 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Thank you so much for your perspectives, @Nungali and @Apech. I know very little about Egyptian culture and this is my first time encountering the Rainbow Serpent / Dreamtime myths, but I'm looking forward to learning more about both. I'm fascinated by cross-cultural serpent (particularly serpent goddess) motifs.

 

I've been looking into some of the overlaps. I've spent time the most time with Sumerian, Israelite, and a tiny bit of Chinese cosmologies. The rest I need to study more deeply to have a better framework, but these are a few of the serpent cosmologies:

 

Mesopotamia

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Anunnaki (Sumerian/Akkadian): divine council, offspring of An, beings who “decree fates,” walk among humans, and later judge in the underworld. Enki taught civilization: irrigation, agriculture, herding, crafts, practical tech; bestowed the "me": institutions and skills (kingship, priesthood, weaving, music, law, rites); and instructed in rituals and fixes: medicine, exorcism, construction

 

Ningishzida / Ninazu: serpent-lord with staff, linked to vegetation, underworld, and mediation between realms

 

Tiamat & Mušḫuššu: dragon/serpent chaos beings subdued but still central to creation order

 

 

Levant / Israelite-Jewish
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Genesis 6 (sons of God/Nephilim): divine descent, human interbreeding, hybrid offspring

 

Book of Enoch (Watchers): angels/sky-beings descend, mate with humans, teach forbidden arts (metallurgy, astronomy, enchantments), judged and bound underground

 

Leviathan / Lotan: primordial chaos serpent subdued by Yahweh/Baal — parallels Mesopotamian combat myths with cosmic-serpent centrality

 

 

Mesoamerica
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Quetzalcóatl / Kukulkán (Aztec/Maya): feathered serpent culture-bringer, teacher of maize, calendar, astronomy, ritual; sky descent and return motifs

 

Xiuhcoatl (“fire serpent”): solar/weapon serpent tied to royal power, cyclical time, cosmic warfare

 

 

South America

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Amaru (Andean/Quechua-Aymara): double-headed serpent linking sky and underworld, bearer of rain and cosmic bridges

 

Yacumama / Boiúna (Amazonian/Brazilian): giant anaconda-serpent, river mother, progenitor and punisher, linked to shamanic visions

 

 

China

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Nüwa & Fuxi: human-headed, serpent-bodied siblings who repair heaven, create/order humankind, teach culture, marriage, and writing

 

Long (dragons): cosmic dragon-serpents controlling rain, sovereignty, fertility, tied to imperial mandate

 

 

South Asia

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Nāgas (India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, etc.): serpent kings dwelling in underworld/waters, guardians of treasures and scriptures, intermarrying with humans, granting knowledge

 

Śeṣa / Ananta: world-serpent supporting creation; Vishnu rests upon coils, creation emerges from serpent

 

Manasā (Bengal): serpent goddess of healing, poison/anti-poison, life-death liminality

 

 

Southeast Asia

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Phaya Naga (Thailand/Laos/Cambodia): Mekong river serpents, rain-bringers, patrons of kingship, linked to temple building

 

Antaboga (Java/Bali): primordial world-serpent creator

 

Nāga Basuki: guardian serpent under mountains/temples

 

 

Australia / Oceania

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Ungud & Wallenganda (Kimberley, WA): earth-serpent + Milky Way sky-serpent; creation begins when sky waters earth

 

Rainbow Serpents (Ngalyod, Wititj, Wanampi, etc.): pan-continental creation beings shaping rivers, mountains, law, fertility, and moieties

 

Mo‘o (Hawai‘i): serpent/lizard guardians of ponds, shapeshifting beings tied to rain and fertility

 

Taniwha (Māori, NZ): serpentine river/sea guardians, protective or punishing, tied to clan law

 

 

Africa

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Da / Aido-Hwedo (Fon, Benin/Togo): rainbow serpent upholding earth, shaping land

 

Ọ̀ṣùmare (Yoruba, Nigeria): rainbow serpent cycling waters, fertility, continuity

 

Idemili (Igbo, Nigeria): python goddess, law, ethics, water

 

Nyaminyami (Zambezi, Zambia/Zimbabwe): river-serpent god, protector, punisher of disruption

 

Lébé (Dogon, Mali): ancestral serpent renewing fertility; priests ritually embody serpent ancestor

 

 

Europe

 

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Ophion (Greek Orphic): serpent entwined around world-egg, cosmogonic father

 

Asclepius (Greek/Roman): serpent-staff, healing, knowledge

 

Veles (Slavic): underworld/water serpent-god, cyclic contest with sky-god Perun, keeper of law and wealth

 

Žaltys (Baltic, Lithuania/Latvia): sacred household serpent, fertility and luck, consort to sun goddess

 

Sugaar (Basque): serpent consort of goddess Mari, storms and fertility, cosmic pair law

 

 

I'm really interested in how all of these myths / motifs developed and what it means for our shared histories.

 

It may be covered under Africa  but there is 'the Great Damballa ' 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damballa

 

and it may connect to 'Rainbow Serpent ' . 

 

Another ancient connection between myths is all the diverse people that have similar '7 sisters' / Pleiades   myth . 

 

There was an entry about this connection in the Wiki article on Aboriginal astronomy, but it has been now removed from that article .

 

 

1 hour ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

 

The myths are strikingly similar in terms of sky-linked or subterranean partly-other beings that descend or rise, teach ritual, crafts, and laws to humanity, significantly shape the landscape, and then withdraw (but remain present as judge, guardian, subterranean power, etc).

 

Read together, it almost seems like ancestral encounters with a superior reptilian-like presence were encoded in local idioms (serpent bodies, hybrid iconography, songlines, temple rites) and preserved as foundational narrative memory. 

 

What do you think? What are some mythic details that support this? Or what are alternative considerations that undercut the idea?

 

 

 

I think there are some mythic details to support  an ancient connection between people  but it doesnt indicate  any 'superior reptilian like presence '   any more than any other 'sacred creator' animal does . 

 

And especially not the modern theories about this .  If it did , why a snake ?    All the modern supposin' about this , the 'reptile superior ones' are thought to have some type of 'appendages'   ( to do stuff with , other than bite or constrict ) .

 

Spoiler

AI Overview

 

Ancient humans were fascinated by snakes due to their ability to shed their skin, symbolizing rebirth and transformation, and their potent venom, which evoked both fear and ideas of healing and protection. Their enigmatic and stealthy nature, association with wisdom and the underworld, and their presence in diverse environments led to them becoming powerful, multifaceted symbols of life, death, and the eternal cycle across numerous cultures worldwide.  

 

Key Reasons for Snake Fascination

• Shedding Skin (Rebirth and Renewal): 

  A snake's ability to shed its skin was a powerful symbol of regeneration, renewal, and immortality in many ancient cultures. 

   
• Duality (Life and Death): 

  Snakes embody a duality: their potent venom can be deadly, but also a source of healing, as seen in the symbol of the Rod of Asclepius. 

   
• Mystery and Stealth: 

  Their mysterious movements, unblinking gaze, and quick strikes contributed to their powerful image, inspiring awe and fear. 

   
• Connection to Wisdom and the Underworld: 

  Snakes were often associated with wisdom, the subconscious, and even deities, representing profound knowledge or the realms below the earth. 

   
• Fertility: 

  Due to their phallic shape and abundant reproduction, snakes symbolized fertility and the abundance of nature in many traditions. 

   
• Guardian and Protector: 

  In some mythologies, such as Hindu and Buddhist traditions, serpents are seen as guardians of treasures and sacred places. 

   

Examples in Ancient Cultures

• Ancient Egypt: 

  The cobra was a symbol of protection and royal power, depicted on the pharaoh's crown, though other serpents, like Apep, symbolized chaos. 

   
• Greek Mythology: 

  The Rod of Asclepius features a serpent and is still a symbol of medicine and healing. 

   
• Hinduism: 

  Snakes are linked to divine power and energy, with gods like Shiva often depicted with serpents. 

   
• Native American Cultures: 

  Snakes are seen as powerful benefactors and guardians, central to rituals like the Hopi snake dance. 

   
• Buddhism: 

  Serpents (nāgas) are seen as protectors of water and sacred sites. 

 

[Sanity Check]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Who ?  IVC and ancient Egypt ?   I would say there was some element of  independence and both got influence  from Mesopotamia.  But back at the far era of agricultural development , I dont think there was direct evidence  of influence on each other . Agriculture arose independently in a few places , It did not arise in  Mesopotamia  and then spread to everywhere else .

 

 

 

Basic science & history:

 

When european settlers 1st reached america, native american indians shared their methods of growing corn and agriculture.

 

Fostering relations to broker trade was a win / win scenario for everyone.

 

Everyone was poor and so everyone could only gain by furthering relations. 

 

There was nothing like the monolithic intellectual property and copyright battles of today.

 

And so it makes sense for ancient egyptians and other cultures to engage in similar relations.

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

< takes notepad out from under the rowboat seat .... makes a note of this for 'future reference'  .  > 

Let me explain more.  The particular pyramid text quoted was placed on the wall above the sarcophagus which held the kings mummy.  The dead king is identified with Osiris.  While Osiris is often called a god of resurrection actually he only resurrects sufficiently to impregnate Isis.  So while he is dead he is able to achieve an erection and ejaculate.  This is how Horus the son is conceived.  So in effect his penis has risen while he remains brain dead … or his brain is in the gutter as @Cobie put it.  
 

 

[Lala Nila]

To further the discussion of the serpent/snake and its relation to esoteric practices and traditions, I find the gnostics have a very intriguing interpretation. 

 

In several gnostic traditions the serpent in Eden is linked to Sofia's salvific impulse, serving as her emissary.

 

 

Then the female spiritual principle came in the snake, the instructor; and it taught them, saying, "What did he say to you? Was it, 'From every tree in the garden shall you eat; yet – from the tree of recognizing good and evil do not eat'?" 

The carnal woman said, "Not only did he say 'Do not eat', but even 'Do not touch it; for the day you eat from it, with death you are going to die.'" 

And the snake, the instructor, said, "With death you shall not die; for it was out of jealousy that he said this to you. Rather your eyes shall open and you shall come to be like gods, recognizing evil and good." And the female instructing principle was taken away from the snake, and she left it behind, merely a thing of the earth.

 

The Hypostasis of the Archons (The Reality of the Rulers), translated by Bentley Layton. 

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html

 

In the above quote the female principle enters the snake, using it as a vessel. Through this she teaches Eve that the Demiurge lied; knowledge is not death, but divinity. In the gnostic interpretation the serpent is not the deceiver, but the liberator and a messenger of Sofia that urges Eve to seek knowledge via the fruit so that humanity can escape ignorance and the slavery of the Archons. This obviously contradicts the classical interpretation of Genesis which teaches that eating from the tree of knowledge is the fall/descent of humanity. The gnostic interpretation is reversed and viewed it as the beginning of the ascent into knowledge (gnosis). Other texts go a little further linking and interpreting Eve as the manifestation of Sofia/Zoe herself, making her temptation a source of self-realization or awakening. Furthermore, with Eve being the manifestation of Sofia, serves as The First Redeemer, the Mother of the Living, a source of Spiritual Light (Zoe) and the spiritual awakener of Adam. 

https://www.gnosis.org/ecclesia/dsophhom.htm?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

The serpent has obviously woven its way into many esoteric systems, many of which is connected to the Divine Feminine is some way or another as mentioned above by many of the participants. But one that was missed entirely was that of Kundalini, who is a Goddess in her own right and the form(less) energy (Adi-Parasakti) of the divine Shakti that resides coiled like a serpent as the base of our spines, representing latent energetic potential. She is Shakti and upon awakening uncoils herself-hissing like a snake, travelling up the sushumna, piercing the chakras, seeking union Shiva, finally fulfilling the microcosmic reproduction of cosmic creation and transforming consciousness. Kundalini is not merely a force to awaken, she is a goddess to honour, a living intelligence inside of you, a teacher to follow. Kundalini promotes rebirth, renewal, and spiritual evolution. She is the awakener of gnosis- the awakener of the Supreme Mother Goddess within you. 

 

Jai Maa!

Namah Shivaya!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Basic science & history:

 

When european settlers 1st reached america, native american indians shared their methods of growing corn and agriculture.

 

Fostering relations to broker trade was a win / win scenario for everyone.

 

Everyone was poor and so everyone could only gain by furthering relations. 

 

There was nothing like the monolithic intellectual property and copyright battles of today.

 

And so it makes sense for ancient egyptians and other cultures to engage in similar relations.

 

 

'' Everyone was poor  ''      How did they then afford passage to the Americas .?  

 

The only sense I can make of these comments , in relation to my post you put it under is  yes, you made a point .... of some type . But in relation to what you seemed to be answering in my post , your idea doesnt hold up BEFORE  Europeans got to America . 

 

Did you understand the post you quoted ?  There was not a Mesopotamian influence  when Egypt first started developing agriculture .

 

But thanks for your lesson in 'basic history and science '      

 

And if you still dont believe this actual basic history , look into the development of agriculture in Papua / New Guinea . 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Apech said:

Let me explain more.  The particular pyramid text quoted was placed on the wall above the sarcophagus which held the kings mummy.  The dead king is identified with Osiris.  While Osiris is often called a god of resurrection actually he only resurrects sufficiently to impregnate Isis.  So while he is dead he is able to achieve an erection and ejaculate.  This is how Horus the son is conceived.  So in effect his penis has risen while he remains brain dead … or his brain is in the gutter as @Cobie put it.  
 

 

 

I think you added the 'he remains brain dead'  bit .  Then again so many versions ( mentions) but no one single story  maybe you can find an example .  My understanding was he was 'restored' temporarily .... I have never seen where he was  'penis restored but not his brain'   ... but then again ,  we all know that in ancient Egypt , once the brain stopped functioning that indicated death    

 

So, why no single Osiris story ?  

 

[  Its the same regarding the Raven in Greek myth ,  no Raven myth , as such (in one story )  but little bits of his story throughout other myths  .... that has now been remedied ;   'The Raven's  Tale ' by Nungali .]