Should I read more

[Sanity Check]

 

Christians currently have no Holy Grail or Lance of Longinus.

 

No one has seen the Ark of the Covenant in millennia.

 

The Temple of Solomon remains destroyed - wherever it is.

 

The only item God left behind for christians to inherit is a book.

 

The Bible.

 

Do christians underestimate the relevance of this.

 

Do I underestimate the importance.

 

Should I read more.

 

?

[Lairg]

Anatoly Fomenko (Russian statistician/mathematician) maintains that the Old Testament was written after the New  Testament.  Easier to make accurate prophecies.

 

I read the first 4 volumes of History: Fiction or Science?

 

They are very impressive.  It seems that much of European accounts of ancient history is medieval with slight changes of names. 

 

Fake versions of ancient authors was a major income stream for monasteries

 

His analysis of the star charts in the ceilings of ancient Egyptian tombs is scary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Lairg

[Sanity Check]

How many years have you paid attention to religious discussion?

 

Remember when it was trendy for atheists to claim Mithras was the actual foundation for the new testament.

 

How about when atheists spammed "Can God create a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it".

 

Then also used to say Noah's Ark was copied from Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

Anyways.

 

In 20+ years of following religious discussions, I've never found any single argument made by atheists to be compelling.

 

Probably the smartest and most competent atheist atm is Neil Tyson Degrasse. He makes some clever comments. But still not compelling.

[心神 ~]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

Anatoly Fomenko (Russian statistician/mathematician) maintains that the Old Testament was written after the New  Testament.  Easier to make accurate prophecies.

 

I read the first 4 volumes of History: Fiction or Science?

 

They are very impressive.  It seems that much of European accounts of ancient history is medieval with slight changes of names. 

 

Fake versions of ancient authors was a major income stream for monasteries

 

His analysis of the star charts in the ceilings of ancient Egyptian tombs is scary.

 

 

There is some evidence of physical Hebrew Bible manuscripts written well before the New Testament. Radiocarbon dating and the handwriting style of various Dead Sea scrolls (Isaiah, Psalms, Deuteronomy, etc.) places them between 300–100 BCE. The Great Isaiah Scroll is often dated around 150–100 BCE.

 

As far as the New Testament, Jewish communities in Egypt translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek in the Hellenistic period. Surviving Greek papyrus copies from before the 1st century CE include:

• the Rylands Papyrus 458 (Deuteronomy),  roughly 2nd century BCE
• the Papyrus Fouad 266 (Genesis/Deuteronomy) about 1st century BCE
• the Nahal Hever Greek “Minor Prophets” roughly 50 BCE–50 CE. The Letter of Aristeas (2nd century BCE) mentions the translation, showing that it was known and used.

 

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Christians currently have no Holy Grail or Lance of Longinus.

 

No one has seen the Ark of the Covenant in millennia.

 

The Temple of Solomon remains destroyed - wherever it is.

 

The only item God left behind for christians to inherit is a book.

 

The Bible.

 

Do christians underestimate the relevance of this.

 

Do I underestimate the importance.

 

Should I read more.

 

?

 

It's true that many religious relics have disappeared, but as you say, the texts do remain. Which texts remain in their original authored form is debatable.

 

To some Christians, it doesn't matter that the Bible (various scriptural canons by branch) is their only inheritance, because to the ones who value the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus, there's no greater treasure in the world.

 

Proverbs 2:4–5

“If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.”

 

Matthew 13:44–46

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.”

 

If you think you’ve underrated it and you want to know what you're missing, read it. You don't need to be Buddhist to read the suttas, or Taoist to read the Dao de Jing, or Christian to read the Bible. There's a lot to be inspired by even if you don't subscribe to everything presented.

 

When I first took an interest, I moved through the entire thing chronologically, on audiobook, at 1.5-2x speed. I quickly got the broad strokes and picked up details I wouldn't have if I weren't listening to it. David Suchet has audio recordings on YouTube that are quite nice. Knowing the genre of what you're reading is also helpful for engaging with it (ie narrative, historical accounts, poetry, etc).

 

Once you have a mental framework for the Tanakh / Old Testament / New Testament, it becomes easier to engage in apocryphal literature of both Jewish and Christian tradition. That helps to develop a fuller picture of the traditions outside of the mainstream presentation, and you'll begin to see where threads connect to non-Abrahamic lineages.

 

[Lairg]

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

Radiocarbon dating and the handwriting style

 

I doubt that either method is reliable.

 

I have read that radiocarbon dating businesses require that you provide an age estimate before they will accept your sample.

 

As you will recall from the work of Wilhelm Reich, radioactive decay can be very greatly accelerated by enclosure in a container with alternating layers of organic and inorganic material.  

 

As for handwriting style!!!

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Lairg

[心神 ~]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

I doubt that either method is reliable.

 

I have read that radiocarbon dating businesses require that you provide an age estimate before they will accept your sample.

 

As you will recall from the work of Wilhelm Reich, radioactive decay can be very greatly accelerated by enclosure in a container with alternating layers of organic and inorganic material.  

 

As for handwriting style!!!

 

 

 

Yes, I can't speak to how reliable the testing methods are, and I agree that there are plenty of spiritual and political reasons to misrepresent the data. I have my own doubts about plenty of portions of the texts. But I'm not convinced that all parts of the Tanakh and supporting Jewish apocryphal writings were fabricated after the development of the letters and Gospels that came to be called the New Testament.

 

[Lairg]

48 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

I'm not convinced that all parts of the Tanakh and supporting Jewish apocryphal writings were fabricated after the development of the letters and Gospels that came to be called the New Testament.

 

 

Fomenko's statistical analysis was based on written documents.  As I recall the earliest copy of the NT is a document from the 14th century.  Similarly with Jewish writings.

 

How then to put an age to the content?

 

There is some hope in that Sumerian tablets, once translated in the mid 19th century, showed alarming similarity to some religious practices and texts.  For example much more detail is given for the processes described in the Book of Genesis.

 

I know little of the accuracy of dating clay tablets.

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Lairg

[心神 ~]

52 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

Fomenko's statistical analysis was based on written documents.  As I recall the earliest copy of the NT is a document from the 14th century.  Similarly with Jewish writings.

 

How then to put an age to the content?

 

There is some hope in that Sumerian tablets, once translated in the mid 19th century, showed alarming similarity to some religious practices and texts.  For example much more detail is given for the processes described in the Book of Genesis.

 

I know little of the accuracy of dating clay tablets.

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with his work specifically, but I'll take a look at it. You may have already read it, here or elsewhere, but I made a post about the Sumerian flood epic. Fragments of the "Eridu Genesis" also mirror the story. There is certainly a lens through which Jesus can be viewed as a manifestation of the eternal Enki.

 

[Lairg]

9 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

a manifestation of the eternal Enki.

 

Enki is occasionally interviewed on exopolitics.org

 

He was asked how he managed immortality.  He replied that when his body is worn out, he makes a clone and inhabits that

 

 

[Sanity Check]

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

I doubt that either method is reliable.

 

I have read that radiocarbon dating businesses require that you provide an age estimate before they will accept your sample.

 

As you will recall from the work of Wilhelm Reich, radioactive decay can be very greatly accelerated by enclosure in a container with alternating layers of organic and inorganic material.  

 

As for handwriting style!!!

 

 

 

 

Are you saying you don't trust the science.

 

Researchers and scientists, established science itself, is not trustworthy enough for carbon dating to be valid?

Edited 4 hours ago by Sanity Check

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Christians currently have no Holy Grail or Lance of Longinus.

 

Ummmm ...   you have them !   They are symbolic  .  

 

If they are needed physically .... ya know what that means !    * see below 

 

 

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

No one has seen the Ark of the Covenant in millennia.

 

But ones like it are in museums . Its a portable Egyptian shrine with a God in it and the things one needs to set up a travelling shrine . 

 

  

 

 

'' As we have just demonstrated, the Ark of the Covenant was similar to ritual chests. But it was also similar to Egyptian shrines. Shrines are important in this analysis because they developed out of Late Bronze Age concepts of divinity. People in the Late Bronze Age believed in localism, the belief that a god could only be in one place at a time. This idea often manifested in idolatry. Like the Egyptian coffin, an idol acted as a physical body where a god maintained its presence, becoming one with the substance of the statue. In Egyptian rituals, this idol was “enthroned” on a standard and placed inside the holy space of a shrine. For small chapels or private worship, that shrine was housed inside a small tent, forming a tabernacle. For larger chapels and temples, the shrine was replaced with a barque.''

 

 

( That quote is from the Bible Archaeology Society Christian site )

 

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

The Temple of Solomon remains destroyed - wherever it is.

 

It remains unfound , you mean  ... that's because there never was one .  Even Jewish archaeologists admit that .

 

 

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

The only item God left behind for christians to inherit is a book.

 

* if you have the cup, the lance , the book .... then you need the dagger  too 

 

 

or a sword would do   (  Matthew 10 :  34 -36    ) 

 

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

The Bible.

 

Do christians underestimate the relevance of this.

 

Do I underestimate the importance.

 

Should I read more.

 

If you want to be a Christian ( and especially since you seem to think 'thats all you got ' ) ... of course you should ! 

 

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

?

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

There is some evidence of physical Hebrew Bible manuscripts written well before the New Testament. Radiocarbon dating and the handwriting style of various Dead Sea scrolls (Isaiah, Psalms, Deuteronomy, etc.) places them between 300–100 BCE. The Great Isaiah Scroll is often dated around 150–100 BCE.

 

As far as the New Testament, Jewish communities in Egypt translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek in the Hellenistic period. Surviving Greek papyrus copies from before the 1st century CE include:

• the Rylands Papyrus 458 (Deuteronomy),  roughly 2nd century BCE
• the Papyrus Fouad 266 (Genesis/Deuteronomy) about 1st century BCE
• the Nahal Hever Greek “Minor Prophets” roughly 50 BCE–50 CE. The Letter of Aristeas (2nd century BCE) mentions the translation, showing that it was known and used.

 

 

It's true that many religious relics have disappeared, but as you say, the texts do remain. Which texts remain in their original authored form is debatable.

 

To some Christians, it doesn't matter that the Bible (various scriptural canons by branch) is their only inheritance, because to the ones who value the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus, there's no greater treasure in the world.

 

Proverbs 2:4–5

“If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.”

 

Matthew 13:44–46

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.”

 

If you think you’ve underrated it and you want to know what you're missing, read it. You don't need to be Buddhist to read the suttas, or Taoist to read the Dao de Jing, or Christian to read the Bible. There's a lot to be inspired by even if you don't subscribe to everything presented.

 

When I first took an interest, I moved through the entire thing chronologically, on audiobook, at 1.5-2x speed. I quickly got the broad strokes and picked up details I wouldn't have if I weren't listening to it. David Suchet has audio recordings on YouTube that are quite nice. Knowing the genre of what you're reading is also helpful for engaging with it (ie narrative, historical accounts, poetry, etc).

 

Once you have a mental framework for the Tanakh / Old Testament / New Testament, it becomes easier to engage in apocryphal literature of both Jewish and Christian tradition. That helps to develop a fuller picture of the traditions outside of the mainstream presentation, and you'll begin to see where threads connect to non-Abrahamic lineages.

 

 

Dont waste you time .... Lairg doesnt 'work like that ' .   he apparently does not believe history or science or anything that conflicts with his modern, new age views and supposins    

 

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Are you saying you don't trust the science.

 

Researchers and scientists, established science itself, is not trustworthy enough for carbon dating to be valid?

 

Read the work of Wilhelm Reich

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

I doubt that either method is reliable.

 

I have read that radiocarbon dating businesses require that you provide an age estimate before they will accept your sample.

 

But can you site what you claim to have read ? It sounds like a dodgy company if that is true . The standard part of the process most close to what you claim lies within the area of submissions ; 'context '  where the one providing the sample  is to include a detailed sample submission from setting out the samples origin  ( which doesnt mean estimated age - it might if it comes from a group of items that have been previously dated  )  and any research questions you have)  . 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

As you will recall from the work of Wilhelm Reich, radioactive decay can be very greatly accelerated by enclosure in a container with alternating layers of organic and inorganic material.  

 

 

Are you tying to infer something about that ?  That people are faking radio active dates by enclosing them in a Reichian orgone box ?  

 

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

As for handwriting style!!!

 

 

 

No doubt you doubt it .  You doubt anything that does not conform to your very set and closed mind frame . 

 

Even  early iron age ostrica from the outside the Jordan valley in the desert ( south west ) at small outposts , archaologists were surprised at the high amount of literacy amongs a small population ... how could they tell ?  By the differnt style of handwriting ! 

 

yes, people can do that .... even from  

 

655 × 653

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Enki is occasionally interviewed on exopolitics.org

 

He was asked how he managed immortality.  He replied that when his body is worn out, he makes a clone and inhabits that

 

 

 

Doesnt believe in science or history 

 

but takes this stuff as real  

 

thats called bias 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Are you saying you don't trust the science.

 

Researchers and scientists, established science itself, is not trustworthy enough for carbon dating to be valid?

 

No , as it can be wrong , due to  pollution of sample and a heap of other reasons , thats why it is not used as the only tool in assessing a date . 

 

Lairg is one of those 'conspiracy theorists wack a doodles '    -  you do realize we are in a cyber war at the moment ?   Its over consciousness and 'they ' (no not the lizard aliens ... thats more BS smoke screen ) dont care what side you take ;  crazy  mad believe anything conspiracy brain  fried 'lefties'  or  crazy mad believe anything fascist  brain fried neo-Nazi righties  ... as long as it brings down western civilization ... or at least makes everyone crazy and fight with each other  ..... they win . 

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

Read the work of Wilhelm Reich

 

 

 

 

What a 'palm off' to him ! 

 

 

I have .   What on earth are you referring to now . 

[Sanity Check]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

It remains unfound , you mean  ... that's because there never was one .  Even Jewish archaeologists admit that .

 

 

* if you have the cup, the lance , the book .... then you need the dagger  too 

 

 

 

 

 

I shouldn't say no one has seen the Ark of the Covenant.

 

Not when there are some claiming they know exactly where it is:

 

 

 

Anyone who grew up playing video games knows guns are the most valuable item in game.

 

People have a tendency to assume this precedent also applies to real life.

 

They search for daggers, weapons and relics.

 

But God leaving behind a book as the only inheritance might imply the pen being mightier than swords.

[Sanity Check]

9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Lairg is one of those 'conspiracy theorists wack a doodles '    -  you do realize we are in a cyber war at the moment ?   Its over consciousness and 'they ' (no not the lizard aliens ... thats more BS smoke screen ) dont care what side you take ;  crazy  mad believe anything conspiracy brain  fried 'lefties'  or  crazy mad believe anything fascist  brain fried neo-Nazi righties  ... as long as it brings down western civilization ... or at least makes everyone crazy and fight with each other  ..... they win . 

 

 

 

...

 

In 1973 a scientist named Santiago Genoves did an experiment.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acali

 

He put 11 people of different nationalities / ethnicities on a raft in the middle of the ocean and tried to get them to turn on each other.

 

End result - they all became friends and grew to resent the scientist, recognizing his efforts to stir up drama.

 

Some even had sexual relations on the raft, leading the media to call it the sex raft.

 

Have things changed from 1973 to the present? I don't know.

 

All I know is, I don't feel any resentment or negativity towards anyone.

 

If there is a war I don't even feel like participating cuz there isn't anyone I want to hurt.

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

I shouldn't say no one has seen the Ark of the Covenant.

 

Not when there are some claiming they know exactly where it is:

 

 

Dont pollute your brain further with that trash ^  

 

8 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Anyone who grew up playing video games knows guns are the most valuable item in game.

 

 

Appears to have a damaged brain . 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

People have a tendency to assume this precedent also applies to real life.

 

They search for daggers, weapons and relics.

 

But God leaving behind a book as the only inheritance might imply the pen being mightier than swords.

 

As I said ... yes , you should read it more then . 

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

...

 

In 1973 a scientist named Santiago Genoves did an experiment.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acali

 

He put 11 people of different nationalities / ethnicities on a raft in the middle of the ocean and tried to get them to turn on each other.

 

End result - they all became friends and grew to resent the scientist, recognizing his efforts to stir up drama.

 

That does not surprise me . History is full of places and times when diverse people lived together ;  Jew and Muslim as well .  Muslim

 and Zoroastrian  too . It isnt until any sort of or any type of religo/political   fanatics arise that the so called 'we hate each other' crap starts . 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Some even had sexual relations on the raft, leading the media to call it the sex raft.

 

 

I think 'Love Boat' would make the better tv series . 

 

As far as raft adventures go for ya ... here is a good one ! 

 

Sth America to Australia !  and just about no one knows about it ;

 

  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_Alsar_Pacific_raft_expeditions

 

 

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Have things changed from 1973 to the present? I don't know.

 

Depends on if we have subtle political fascists in charge now or not    

 

 

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

All I know is, I don't feel any resentment or negativity towards anyone.

 

If there is a war I don't even feel like participating cuz there isn't anyone I want to hurt.

 

 

 

Good ... if it ever turns out you have to participate  ... we dont want soldiers ...   that want to hurt people . 

[Sanity Check]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Good ... if it ever turns out you have to participate  ... we dont want soldiers ...   that want to hurt people . 

 

 

 

Hearts and minds say.

 

Wars aren't necessarily won or lost via harm.

 

At some point public opinion will become important.

 

And it might be the majority that decides what is what in the end.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Sanity Check

[Sanity Check]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Appears to have a damaged brain . 

 

As I said ... yes , you should read it more then . 

 

 

 

 

Damaged? Not noticing lapses in judgement.

 

New inspirational motto: "God wants you to read a book".

 

Helps put those other folks burning books into perspective, too.

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

Damaged? Not noticing lapses in judgement.

 

They usually dont . 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

New inspirational motto: "God wants you to read a book".

 

 

Good !  better than playing a video game . 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Helps put those other folks burning books into perspective, too.

 

Depends on the book