Ego

[Surya]

Id like to explore this subject with you. There are two things in particular I’m curious about:

- real vs. false ego 

- how do these manifest?

 

👻

[stirling]

I'd be curious about your definitions - real vs. false ego. From my perspective ALL ego is a delusion. Would Self vs. "self" also meet your criteria?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ātman_(Hinduism)

[Lairg]

I am wary of definitions

 

from Old French defenir, definir "to finish, conclude, come to an end; bring to an end; define, determine with precision," and directly from Medieval Latin diffinire, definire, from Latin definire "to limit, determine, explain," from de "completely" (see de-) + finire "to bound, limit," from finis "boundary, end" 

 

Sometimes it is better to be open-ended in meanings

 

 

 

[Forestgreen]

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

I am wary of definitions

/...  .../

Sometimes it is better to be open-ended in meanings

That would make the topic very hard to discuss. 

[Lairg]

Not necessarily.  

 

It may be possible to describe experiences, views, even experiments without requiring the full understanding that a definition implies

 

If enough tangents are drawn, the circle will be obvious

 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

I will propose that anything which appears as a changing, limited object is false.

[stirling]

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I will propose that anything which appears as a changing, limited object is false.

 

FOC has got the Windex!

[Sherman Krebbs]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

I will propose that anything which appears as a changing, limited object is false.

 

I dont quite grasp this. so ego is an object of the mind. perhaps any such object is false, but not necessarily unusefull.  but, how does the changing and limited nature of it impact its falseness.  

 

maybe another question is whether the concept of self or ego is unusefull? i have concepts of walls around me. i can understand that my conception of walls is just phenomenonal, but i dont disregard those conceptions completely, and start running into things.

 

just like i should not walk into walls, i need to take care of my self, to make sure i have food, etc. and to try to live a fulfilling life. in this regard, is the ego maybe something to be observed and understood, and not necessarily outright disregarded, just like any other phenomenon? maybe the distinction is its changing and limited nature, as you say? 

[forestofclarity]

1 minute ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

perhaps any such object is false, but not necessarily unusefull.  but, how does the changing and limited nature of it impact its falseness.  

 

Essence is not function. Something can be false (or magical if you prefer) and still function. For example, a dream hammer is useful in a dream, but not useful in the waking state (and vice versa). 

[liminal_luke]

I´ll take a stab at the real vs false ego distinction.  An example of real ego might be genuine pride.  Say I´ve worked hard to perfect my apple pie making and finally get the flaky crust just right.  I notice that it´s gobbled up fast at the neighborhood pot luck and feel a surge of pride.  This, to me, is real ego.

 

False ego is the grandiosity associated with narcissism.  Deep down I feel insecure but I (falsely) cover over my vulnerability with by boasting about my pies.  Such boasting might look like the confidence of real ego but isn´t.

 

Both forms of ego might be delusional from an absolute point of view.  As every dessert lover knows, all pie is impermanent.  Still, from a relative point of view, there´s a difference between the two forms of ego.

Edited 22 hours ago by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

 

40 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

…, there´s a difference between the two forms of ego.

I agree. 

[Cobie]

 

47 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

… all pie is impermanent …

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

… two forms of ego.

 

(Long ago now) I used the false ego to raise my real ego.

 

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Cobie

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

so ego is an object of the mind. perhaps any such object is false, but not necessarily unuseful

 

Quite so.   Don Juan tells us that the mind is a foreign installation.

 

These days I would say that the personality/lower mind is operated by an intelligence that has its own objective: protecting its self-esteem.

 

This makes it very difficult to convince a human that it has wrong beliefs.

 

Convince comes from the French convaincre.  One of its meanings is to conquer or vanquish.

 

Personality is from the Latin persona.  A persona is a mask.

 

Conquering the mind of another rarely contributes to the greater good.  The Covid sequence is a recent demonstration

 

  

[Cobie]

What was your original face before you were born? (Zen koan)

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Cobie

[liminal_luke]

45 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

(Long ago now) I used the false ego to raise my real ego.

 

 

 

 

It´s like they say: Fake (ego) it until you make it.

[Cobie]

 

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

… Fake (ego) it until you make it.

Go for it!   

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

Some pictures disappear again after a while. 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

What was your original face before you were born? (Zen koan)

 

You've passed! 

[stirling]

22 hours ago, Lairg said:

I am wary of definitions

 

from Old French defenir, definir "to finish, conclude, come to an end; bring to an end; define, determine with precision," and directly from Medieval Latin diffinire, definire, from Latin definire "to limit, determine, explain," from de "completely" (see de-) + finire "to bound, limit," from finis "boundary, end" 

 

Sometimes it is better to be open-ended in meanings

 

To have any kind of discussion or debate in language I really do think you need to agree on the meaning of SOME some terms, otherwise cabbage defenestration jaguar, don't you think? Finis before it begins.

[Lairg]

Some people start discussions by describing experiences without using limit-containing concepts

 

The experiences can be investigated through physical and metaphysical experiments.

 

Better perhaps to find a lot of tangents before deciding if there is a circle or ellipse. 

 

Even then, further observations may require revisiting the conceptualization.   Consider how many reconceptualizations of physics have occurred since the improper reporting of the Michelson-Morley experiment

 

  

 

 

[Lairg]

Yesterday was with a friend who has put several years of effort into the heart light practice.

 

She was very pleased with herself.   Occasionally she manages simultaneous awareness of herself as a human and as an entity beyond this universe. 

 

The cosmic entity that is the Real her, anchors a myriad of threads into various galaxies and species, including one into the incarnation of my friend.

 

Of course that cosmic entity is a local embodiment of a much greater entity and in due time my friend will be able to maintain parallel awareness at 3 levels

 

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited 15 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

@liminal_luke 

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

Bravery is 80% coffee and 20% faking

 

Seriously. The word ‘courage’ comes from the word ‘heart’ (Latin, cor).  
 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Cobie

[Forestgreen]

20 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

If enough tangents are drawn, the circle will be obvious

And the circle defines the term.