Did Zhang Sanfeng invent Taiji?

[Antares]

37 minutes ago, FluffyGuardian said:

Well, you are the one who posted a video of a modern person sharing his opinions as well. So if you can do it, why am I not allowed to?

Ok, lets stop it here. You don't see the difference between historical sources which include information from some authentic lineages, and someone's personal belief.

[FluffyGuardian]

And once we actually dig deeper into the historical sources... all of a sudden you very quickly wanted to change the topic to modern Yang and Chen Style instead of historical sources.

 

[Vajra Fist]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

@Vajra Fist Wudang is not whorehouse. There are still a few authentic Daoist lineages which have preserved ZSF methods of neidan. They are just not open to the public. 

 

I'm joking of course. It's a famous line from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - which ironically was the thing that turned wudang into a tourist trap. 

 

I'm curious about your thoughts on lineage. To me, that's less important than whether someone has skill. 

 

For instance, the form itself may be really old, but performed in a completely external, empty way.

 

Something relatively new, like the CMC or HSS form, may conversely be practiced to a very high level. The difference is not in the external choreography, but whether the practitioner can use the form to express jin.

[Forestgreen]

9 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I'm curious about your thoughts on lineage. To me, that's less important than whether someone has skill. 

 

For instance, the form itself may be really old, but performed in a completely external, empty way.

That would be a broken or dead lineage.

[Antares]

16 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Something relatively new, like the CMC

I don't do CMC form and to be honest there are not many people who do it correctly, so I agree.for the most people this is the external choreography. Forms of this kind are more intended for combat application, and although there is a certain internal work involved, one needs to be at a sufficiently high level of practice to perform this form correctly. At the moment, I am not interested in the combat aspect. I am not sure if they have internal work which precedes this martial form in Yang style Taiji - Quan. It is not the best option to begin with this CMC form but many teachers teach it from the start. If I do Yang Taiji I would do "Taiji Chih" which is linked to Yang Luchan directly. There is quite enough internal work to do before one wants to do martial form and benefit from it. But there are some more internal forms in Taiji which are good for energy and overall balance. Yang or Chen forms are taught for commercial purposes IMO.   

Edited September 6 by Antares

[Master Logray]

On 9/4/2025 at 1:46 AM, Master Logray said:

Nowadays some Wudang schools say ZSF not only created TaiChi but also probably created XinYi and Bagua.  So one can go to the many schools and learn Wudang Taichi, Wudang XinYi and Wudang Bagua.   

 

These inner martial arts seem to be flowing into Wudang instead of coming out from it.   Taichi probably is the better example.  Yet Wudang does have its own secretly guarded IMA like the Tai Yuet 5 Elements Boxing and another one the name I forgot.  These were either developed or preserved by Wudang and have a deeper connection with Neidan than the Yang Taichi, which can be treated a form of Neigong/Qigong under some situations, but not Neidan.  Whether these are related to ZSF is not known as he never mentioned anything about boxing.

 

[Gerard]

Another insightful reddit discussion on the topic of Wudang:

 

 

Take this whole thing with a pinch of salt. Your learn more Taoism in your local park/mountain and learning an art from a teacher who focuses on "gong fu" (hard work) not fairy tales and voodoo BS.

 

Let's me include this old story and practical approach to training since it's a favourite of mine:

 

"...the majority of Ma Gui's leg training was not done through walking at such an extremely low level, but rather was cultivated by countless hours of his system's "bear walking:" slow concentrated circle-walking in a horse stance that dramatically transforms the large tendon lines from neck to feet and strengthens the entire body.

 

Ma Gui had a reputation for being an extremely conservative teacher who demanded the very best of his students. As a busy lumber merchant he did not have to teach professionally and he was therefore able to maintain extremely high standards in training. Fiercely dedicated to the traditional way he had been taught Bagua by Yin Fu and Dong Haichuan, he refused to modify his teachings to make them easier and felt that "anyone who felt the skill was too difficult to learn should not be taught in the first place."
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Gui_(martial_artist)