goretex Posted July 30 (edited) I see little discussion of Mark Rasmus here. He seems to be popular for combining qigong with a Hermetics framework and filling in the "lack" of physical training in a Western tradition. He and his students also have some popularity in the taiji community as witnessed by one of the few threads being from @dwai here. With respect from senior members here including @freeform I also see him mentioned in a recent thread on Damo, so I thought he could use a dedicated thread. I do see that some of his practices seem to bypass a lot of the "classical" route. For example, there is much more emphasis on feeling "vital force" in the beginning stages and understanding different principles in his system. Whereas Damo does seem to warn more against relying on sensations. He also doesn't seem to have a big emphasis on LDT cultivation. He stresses using partner work for collaboratively building sense/qualities and trying to attune to these different frequencies (vital, astral, mental, akashic). Here's a helpful interview by a former student that doesn't follow the hermetics framework. Edited July 30 by goretex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krenx Posted July 31 I train his system along with my taiji practice. Here are the parallels that makes his system very translatable and supports taiji practice and methods. Vital frequency = physical body, jing Astral frequency = Chi/Qi quality. Mental frequency = Shen quality. Akasha frequency = Wuji quality. So you train to transform the energies from vital to akasha, similar to jing qi shen, wuji. The term "transformation" is important. These frequencies are not just some random energy you pull out of thin air. You have to cultivate the prior energies to a certain extent before there is enough to transform into the next quality, vital being the most fundamental. You work on all of them, and some more then others depending on the phase of your training, and what you personally need for your goals. I have done Damo's methods too. I know he always downplays feelings, sensations and imagination stuff. But if you do this long enough, that kind of statements are really half truths. And half truths are quite harmful and leads to confusion. The truth about feelings, and imagination, is you need to know the context of what layer you are feeling, your attitude towards feeling, and same for imagination. The movement of the mind does trigger Qi, energy to move in specifics ways. It is not without its function in any practice. To abandon feelings and imagination completely is impossible. Developing a more refined context around it is the way to go. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goretex Posted August 4 Thanks for chiming in with your experience @Krenx. Did you get results from both Rasmus and Damo's methods? I found this video which gives an overview of how Rasmus views dantian development (and cultivation generally). Start off with awareness mostly outside of the body to develop sensitivity rather than focus internally and get "stuck" on physical sensations. Doesn't believe in sinking the body; bad for body, knees, back. Doesn't believe in LDT energy storage; leads to mental issues (at least, as core practices). He suggests storing energy in the akasha (or in wuji? per @Krenx's correspondence). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krenx Posted August 4 @goretex Damo's safety mechanism around Dantian training, is through refining yin qualities, to tame yang energy from creating unstable pressures and manifestations. It is good fundamentals, true, but I don't think it is enough to restraint the unstable quality of dantian building. What that kind of power becomes, depends on your cultivation and character that has been established many many years prior, and lifetimes. And that kind of character building is not just yin energy. It is your habitual life conduct and health in the mind. The success of dantian work, is depending on things not just in this lifetime. With Mark's methods, although the development of energy is released into space outside the body, we need to remember the fundemental rule of existence. All experience cannot be outside of "mind". All experience is actually an "internal" experience with our 6 sense basis. So this is still a very real internal development, of the physical layer, to the other layers. It is VERY difficult to ignore your insecurities, obstacles, blockages, flaws, defilements with Mark's methods. Because you work on all the layers, the mind cannot run from itself with this kind of training. There is alot of obvious benefits to that. If you trained under older masters, and listen to their caution, they will share very similar stories of themselves, and of masters they know who train internal body methods, dantian work, dantian power. The stories are always the same. They die early, they go blind, they go crazy, their personalities, desires become aggressive, etc. And it is specifically tied to their type dantian sinking training. To contain Qi in ways the body and mind is unable to handle or tame. My master took up Buddhism to develop the insight to filter out and abandon unhealthy training methods. The old branches of yang taiji through yang jianhou's lineages, inclines more towards mark rasmus theories. Where dantian is not really focused that way. It is just an area that is recognized to have a bigger "space" for chi to collect. But collection is not what they do. Energy just flows through it and fills to whatever ratio is available, and flows on. The practice is to purify and stabilize the energies. And when one later is stable to a certain extent, it creates a natural momentum to transform to the next later, jing qi shen, wuji, akasha etc. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goretex Posted August 27 On 8/4/2025 at 10:28 AM, Krenx said: @goretex Damo's safety mechanism around Dantian training, is through refining yin qualities, to tame yang energy from creating unstable pressures and manifestations. It is good fundamentals, true, but I don't think it is enough to restraint the unstable quality of dantian building. What that kind of power becomes, depends on your cultivation and character that has been established many many years prior, and lifetimes. And that kind of character building is not just yin energy. It is your habitual life conduct and health in the mind. The success of dantian work, is depending on things not just in this lifetime. With Mark's methods, although the development of energy is released into space outside the body, we need to remember the fundemental rule of existence. All experience cannot be outside of "mind". All experience is actually an "internal" experience with our 6 sense basis. So this is still a very real internal development, of the physical layer, to the other layers. It is VERY difficult to ignore your insecurities, obstacles, blockages, flaws, defilements with Mark's methods. Because you work on all the layers, the mind cannot run from itself with this kind of training. There is alot of obvious benefits to that. If you trained under older masters, and listen to their caution, they will share very similar stories of themselves, and of masters they know who train internal body methods, dantian work, dantian power. The stories are always the same. They die early, they go blind, they go crazy, their personalities, desires become aggressive, etc. And it is specifically tied to their type dantian sinking training. To contain Qi in ways the body and mind is unable to handle or tame. My master took up Buddhism to develop the insight to filter out and abandon unhealthy training methods. The old branches of yang taiji through yang jianhou's lineages, inclines more towards mark rasmus theories. Where dantian is not really focused that way. It is just an area that is recognized to have a bigger "space" for chi to collect. But collection is not what they do. Energy just flows through it and fills to whatever ratio is available, and flows on. The practice is to purify and stabilize the energies. And when one later is stable to a certain extent, it creates a natural momentum to transform to the next later, jing qi shen, wuji, akasha etc. Thank you for this explanation. Revisiting this as I have had a chance to practice a bit more. I have also received the Elastic Force Chi Kung book, and it's amusingly a manga-inspired illustration of different exercises. I know in your correspondence "vital energy" is "jing", but I assume there's some crossover to yang energy? I'm noticing that it triggers spontaneous qigong for me, but that might be because I already have had such a practice. I don't see any mentions of spontaneous qigong in videos so far. And then secondary question, how does Mark's framework cultivate yin? Third unrelated question, how do you view the elemental cultivation? I presume if it was using 5 element framework that it'd be more palatable to qigong practitioners. It also makes me wonder why elemental cultivation isn't more popular Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krenx Posted August 27 (edited) @goretex Vital you can think of it as the more physical and substantial frequency of energy. As opposed to the more subtle energies. Spontaneous movements is not part of the curriculum. It might arise occasionally depending on the individual, but it should pass. You will hear the term electric and magnetic qualities in his system. For example building the ball. The magnetic quality is yin. The electric quality is yang. It is only 4 elements that mark works with. The metal element is between air and fire, so generally working with the 4 earth, water, air, fire, covers metal. Elemental cultivation at the essence, is a more tangible way to acquire equanimity. Because we interact with these elements as humans, developing them, becoming intimate with them, helps us tame it, so one does not run wild on its own. And so balance is achieved just by becoming "friends" with it. Becoming less a stranger to it. So when faced with those elemental qualities in life, your mind does not get agitated by it. The 4 elements is a hermetics thing, nothing to do with appealing to Qi gong. Elemental practice is popular, specifically in the bagua and xingyi circles. And Buddhist practice. Edited August 27 by Krenx 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim the enchanter Posted Tuesday at 03:39 PM On 04/08/2025 at 3:28 PM, Krenx said: @goretex Damo's safety mechanism around Dantian training, is through refining yin qualities, to tame yang energy from creating unstable pressures and manifestations. It is good fundamentals, true, but I don't think it is enough to restraint the unstable quality of dantian building. What that kind of power becomes, depends on your cultivation and character that has been established many many years prior, and lifetimes. And that kind of character building is not just yin energy. It is your habitual life conduct and health in the mind. The success of dantian work, is depending on things not just in this lifetime. With Mark's methods, although the development of energy is released into space outside the body, we need to remember the fundemental rule of existence. All experience cannot be outside of "mind". All experience is actually an "internal" experience with our 6 sense basis. So this is still a very real internal development, of the physical layer, to the other layers. It is VERY difficult to ignore your insecurities, obstacles, blockages, flaws, defilements with Mark's methods. Because you work on all the layers, the mind cannot run from itself with this kind of training. There is alot of obvious benefits to that. If you trained under older masters, and listen to their caution, they will share very similar stories of themselves, and of masters they know who train internal body methods, dantian work, dantian power. The stories are always the same. They die early, they go blind, they go crazy, their personalities, desires become aggressive, etc. And it is specifically tied to their type dantian sinking training. To contain Qi in ways the body and mind is unable to handle or tame. My master took up Buddhism to develop the insight to filter out and abandon unhealthy training methods. The old branches of yang taiji through yang jianhou's lineages, inclines more towards mark rasmus theories. Where dantian is not really focused that way. It is just an area that is recognized to have a bigger "space" for chi to collect. But collection is not what they do. Energy just flows through it and fills to whatever ratio is available, and flows on. The practice is to purify and stabilize the energies. And when one later is stable to a certain extent, it creates a natural momentum to transform to the next later, jing qi shen, wuji, akasha etc. Really interesting, thanks for sharing. I identified my own concerns with the dantien-centric model thankfully relatively early in my life. It's quite hard for learners to push back against this narrative which seems to dominate the English language literature and lots of schools. The building the ball method isn't entirely my cup of tea either, there is a happy medium, but with appropriate grounding isn't a bad approach IMHO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted Tuesday at 06:26 PM On 8/4/2025 at 8:28 AM, Krenx said: although the development of energy is released into space outside the body, Interesting that some years ago, there was a debate between Malaysian teachers, Sifu Yap and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. Sifu Yap was big on releasing. On 8/4/2025 at 8:28 AM, Krenx said: And it is specifically tied to their type dantian sinking training. Can you elaborate on this further? There is a similar focus in many Buddhist schools and many of those masters live a long time. Most of the stories I've heard about problems tend to be due to qi emission rather than dan tian cultivation. I don't know enough about Mark Rasmus, but I did follow some of his videos which had a profound impact. However, his online stuff is unorganized and his in person stuff requires a monthlong, $5,000 commitment. Does he have an in-between? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krenx Posted Tuesday at 07:16 PM 28 minutes ago, forestofclarity said: Interesting that some years ago, there was a debate between Malaysian teachers, Sifu Yap and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. Sifu Yap was big on releasing. Can you elaborate on this further? There is a similar focus in many Buddhist schools and many of those masters live a long time. Most of the stories I've heard about problems tend to be due to qi emission rather than dan tian cultivation. I don't know enough about Mark Rasmus, but I did follow some of his videos which had a profound impact. However, his online stuff is unorganized and his in person stuff requires a monthlong, $5,000 commitment. Does he have an in-between? Elaborate more on the qualities of releasing? Energy still do accumulates. But we need to remember there are layers and frequencies /planes of energy existence. Jing qi shen, vital astral mental akasha etc. And when one layer is full or stable, it tends to transform to the other layers and so on. So condensing and channeling all energy into the vital astral forcefully, just creates a funnel and consolidation that is difficult to tame. Yes you can get some powers. Yes you can extend life. There are many things you can do. But the effort to manage that dantian is not really worth it. Any slight negligence to will snowball into the negative effects I mentioned earlier. Yes. Qi emission carelessly is one way to die early. Specifically Kong Jin, meaning through space and time, non contact. But specially qi emission from dantian that is problematic. There are qi emissions for healing, like reiki and other Chinese systems that stream from the external universe. Those are more gentle and harmless. As my sifu said, when doing qi emission, don't squeeze toothpaste, you die early. So it goes back to the problem with the dantian. My recommendation along with many masters I know who been there done that, who are healthy, is train to open your body, let energy stream and fill up your whole body naturally. Various parts of your body like your dantian, ming men, upper back, spine will tend to store more qi naturally. There is no need to force more in. As you cultivate, blockages are released, and it gives space in your being to fill up with more qi on its own. Qi will fill up space on its own. And you use whatever VOLUME of chi is flowing through your system, relative to your skill, cultivation. And practicing refining your mind quality, your yi, sharpen and still it, results in your needing to use LESS chi to get the job done. That is a sign of real progression. Having more and more chi is not really the main goal at the end of the day. You want to have a deep relationship with it instead. Mark rasmus is generally retired from teaching qi gong. But you can find his lessons on the martial man website. It is cheaper there. You can find his student like dinash (urbansage). He seems to be giving workshops recently. He is good. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted Wednesday at 08:03 PM Thanks, I appreciate the solid discussion. My primary practice is Buddhist, but I have an on-again, off-again relationship with Taiji and Taoist practices. The mechanics of my Taiji are coming together, so I was wondering a bit about the chemistry. It is interesting to read your POV because it sort of mirrors the Buddhist POV I am familiar with, but Daoists seem to go from body up and Buddhist practice from mind essence down IME. On 9/9/2025 at 1:16 PM, Krenx said: So condensing and channeling all energy into the vital astral forcefully, just creates a funnel and consolidation that is difficult to tame. I've seen about 4 approaches in Buddhist and Daoist teachings over the years: 1. Fixating practices. 2. Non-fixating practices. Like Zen. 3. Both. More of the Vajrayana approach. 4. Neither. For me, the breath and attention both naturally sank into the lower part of the my body on its own over time doing normal meditation practice. In Damo's teaching, it is similar--- there is no forcing or forming. Rather, the breath and attention naturally settles into the dan tian region. I've also found there are channels and formations that seem to build off this on their own. I haven't heard of any forcible-type paths, but I do think some of the Daoist teachers tend to be more fixation oriented. On 9/9/2025 at 1:16 PM, Krenx said: My recommendation along with many masters I know who been there done that, who are healthy, is train to open your body, let energy stream and fill up your whole body naturally. Various parts of your body like your dantian, ming men, upper back, spine will tend to store more qi naturally. There is no need to force more in. As you cultivate, blockages are released, and it gives space in your being to fill up with more qi on its own. Qi will fill up space on its own. And you use whatever VOLUME of chi is flowing through your system, relative to your skill, cultivation. This seems wise and in line with most recommendations I am familiar with. On 9/9/2025 at 1:16 PM, Krenx said: And practicing refining your mind quality, your yi, sharpen and still it, results in your needing to use LESS chi to get the job done. That is a sign of real progression. Having more and more chi is not really the main goal at the end of the day. You want to have a deep relationship with it instead. I think this is an issue with some Daoists--- the energy increases and it agitates the mental habits. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krenx Posted Wednesday at 10:32 PM (edited) Reverse turtle breathing techniques is a form of compressing the qi in the dantian. It results in consolidating and concentration. Containing the energy down there into a pill size etc. It is what it is. Buddhism approaches energy differently. And the goals are different. Not all fully enlightened disciples had psychic power. Sometimes that energy is directed towards wisdom instead. It depends on the inclination and karmic potential. But In a nutshell, they develop a mind that listens to its owner, and makes physical reality flexible. When the owner commands the mind to do something, that tamed mind will go perform the task, at whatever energetic or physical frequency is required. And it is a much more direct approach, and more the side effects of their goal. Daoist schools and teachings spread into a huge spectrum. We can generalize it to an extent, but I try judge based on the methods taught. I am sure many daoist schools also make virtue a priority in their practice. Edited Thursday at 03:42 AM by Krenx 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim the enchanter Posted Thursday at 03:00 PM On 09/09/2025 at 7:26 PM, forestofclarity said: Interesting that some years ago, there was a debate between Malaysian teachers, Sifu Yap and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. Sifu Yap was big on releasing. Can you elaborate on this further? There is a similar focus in many Buddhist schools and many of those masters live a long time. Most of the stories I've heard about problems tend to be due to qi emission rather than dan tian cultivation. I don't know enough about Mark Rasmus, but I did follow some of his videos which had a profound impact. However, his online stuff is unorganized and his in person stuff requires a monthlong, $5,000 commitment. Does he have an in-between? You can pretty much get to the bottom of what he is doing from his two books and some experimentation. That's not a slight on his system, closer to a compliment of its simplicity. There is also a really cool YouTube video if you haven't already seen it called 'A short intro to internal power with Rod Alavi'. Rod Alavi is a Powerslap "athlete" They go through a basic lesson start to finish so you can see how it all fits together and then take it over the line yourself if you're motivated. Those things in combination should get you off and running. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted yesterday at 12:12 AM On 9/11/2025 at 10:00 AM, Tim the enchanter said: You can pretty much get to the bottom of what he is doing from his two books and some experimentation Classic Daobums answer! On 9/11/2025 at 10:00 AM, Tim the enchanter said: Those things in combination should get you off and running. Thanks, I'll check it out when I have some time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim the enchanter Posted yesterday at 10:15 AM 10 hours ago, forestofclarity said: Classic Daobums answer! Thanks, I'll check it out when I have some time. Don't know if a classic Daobums answer is a good or bad thing I'm fairly new here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted yesterday at 11:58 AM 1 hour ago, Tim the enchanter said: Don't know if a classic Daobums answer is a good or bad thing I'm fairly new here. It's the classic spirit of first hand experimentation and free inquiry that will not be limited by rules and limits. I think it is a good thing! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted 1 hour ago Mod Note: Off topic discussion moved here: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites