moving our point of consciousness; and the universe as a thought we are thinking

[BigSkyDiamond]

This thread topic is because of me wanting further input and discussion on two different posts (one from Mark Foote, and one from stirling).  So I will put their posts here and please anyone add to the conversation with your own views, insight, thoughts, ideas, and personal practice.

 

Note:  when I talk about moving my point of consciousness either to different places within the body, or outside the body, it is NOT talking about "leaving the body" and it is NOT "astral projection."  It is expanding the awareness to be bigger and to contain more.  It is not "traveling outside the body" and going somewhere else.  Those are temporary.  Rather,  the body is always there contained within the field of awareness.  It is a permanent shift in perception.

 

so the opening post and topic for this thread contains three parts, shown in the 3 posts below.  Feel free to comment on any part of any of these.

Thank you.

 

1. Post from Mark Foote with my comments

2. Post from me with my questions 

3. Post from stirling with my comments

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:21 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

1. Post from Mark Foote with my comments

 

On 5/19/2025 at 5:23 PM, Mark Foote said:

"consciousness can take place in a specific location in response to that stress, and the location of consciousness can lead the balance of the body to engage activity in order to relieve that stress".

 

 

44 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

I have been meaning to ask Mark about this, so i understand "consciousness can take place in a specific location."  is that like seeing my awareness as a "point" that I can (a) move the point around to different parts in my human body; and (b) move the point  around to different places OUTSIDE the body.

 

I have seen this mentioned in different threads and want to see if I am understanding that correctly.

 

When I have done this it is not "leaving the body" but it is expanding my non-physical self to say fill the room I am in, like a big clear cube, and the physical body is contained within that cube but my point of awareness is for instance a point in say the upper right corner of the big clear cube.  This trains me in seeing and understanding the "physical" body is contained within and is a small speck within my larger "non-physical" awareness.   (i have a block using the word consciousness so i call it something else like big S Self, or non-physical self, or awareness, or infinite self). 

 

I can play with the clear cube being even bigger to contain the whole building i am in or the whole neighborhood where I am walking. ( It can be enlarged to contain the whole city or country or planet.  etc.  but when i try to do that i can't  "feel it" it.)  I do this on my daily walks outside in nature, and the cube is about the height of a two-story building.  With the physical body at the bottom of the cube, and my point of awareness a dot up in the upper right corner.  The teacher i learned this from describes the body as "content in consciousness" just like the contents of a room contain say chair, table, books, laundry basket. 

 

When you practice "consciousness can take place in a specific location" (i think in one thread you say you do this for instance in going to sleep) is that what you are doing?  Where do you move it around to when you move consciusness to "specific location".  if not then please let me know instead what it is you do. Thank you!  I get a lot out of your posts.  Limited only by the bounds of my own understanding.

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:16 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

2. Post from me with my questions

 

 

41 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

i may start a different thread on this, because there is also a recent  post from stirling that also touches on this that I want to discuss further.

 

The end point of "all physical objects" are contained within and are contents of my infinite self (or consciousness) is that the finite physical universe itself and everything in it,  is also contained within my infinite non-physical self.

 

which means just as every person has their own "thoughts" that other people are not privy to, has their own dreams that other people do not see or inhabit.  Then every person has their own universe that other people do not see or inhabit. 

 

That is where this leads and that is what I want to hear more on.  Cut to the chase, the universe is a thought of mine (or a dream) and has no more substance than a thought or a dream.  What is finite and limited and comes and goes is NOT real.  What is infinite no beginning no end no form no space no time IS real.  That is my point of awareness. I AM THAT.

 

off i go to start the thread, i will copy and paste the quote from Mark and the quote from stirling to launch the discussion.  Thank you.

[BigSkyDiamond]

3. Post from stirling with my comments

 

this post jumps out at me because it says to me that the universe and everything in it is built with our thoughts.  Thinking of something causes it to appear.  Our infinite self contains the ten thousand things (universe and everything in it) but is not affected by the illusory world.  It is a passing thought and no more real than the thoughts or dreams we have as humans.  When we are in a dream it feels real.  But it is not.

 

 

On 6/22/2025 at 8:37 AM, stirling said:

 

It is worth watching thoughts in meditation for this very reason. When you meet a patch of stillness in the mind there ARE no things, just the dao, empty and aware. The moment there is a thought, one or more objects appear. Once there is ONE object ("self" is perhaps the easiest and most obvious example) there become many, needed to support the existence of the first, and then there are myriad, needed to support the rest. 

 

An example:

In this moment there is stillness.

A sensation appears.

Thinking mind grasps it with a thought: "My leg itches".

 

The moment the leg exists, there must be a foot, a pelvis, a person to support and contextualize its existence. Further, in the next moment, there must be an "I" that owns that leg and person to be the observer, a mother and father, a cushion and floor to sit on, and therefore, a house to have a floor, an earth that the house sits on, a planet to have an outer crust, a solar system to support that planet, and so on and so on. 

 

The meditator realizes that they are lost to the thinking mind and its myriad things. They allow the thoughts to come to rest again, and there is the dao, where it has always been... now, here, with no observer, only the stillness and the un-labelled phenomena that arise in it. It is causeless, timeless, spaceless and has always been, and always will be present, un-effected by the illusory world of "myriad things", and yet containing that world. The wuji.

[Cobie]

imo 

The universe is real.  The word ‘real’ is not defined by being non-finite, but by being observable by the senses. So one’s ‘ideas’ about the universe are not real, every person inhabits their own ‘mental’ universe.  I, the non-finite soul, during life am only inside my body.  If it was otherwise, I would be able to enter other people and know their thoughts and feelings (which is not the case).  Only God/Dao is omnipresent, so also inside my body.  Only after death does the soul leave the body and returns to where it came from.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:39 PM by Cobie

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

On 5/19/2025 at 5:23 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Quote

"consciousness can take place in a specific location in response to that stress, and the location of consciousness can lead the balance of the body to engage activity in order to relieve that stress".

 

 

 

Quote

 

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

I have been meaning to ask Mark about this, so i understand "consciousness can take place in a specific location."  is that like seeing my awareness as a "point" that I can (a) move the point around to different parts in my human body; and (b) move the point  around to different places OUTSIDE the body.

 

 

 

The first part of Gautama's enlightenment, in many sermons, was:

 

“... as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so... a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society Vol II p 217; see also AN Pali Text Society vol IV pp 202-203)

 

Gautama's metaphor for the first concentration was that of a bath-ball--here's his metaphor, and my comments, from "Applying the Pali Instructions":

 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease. 

 

(AN 5.28, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III pp 18-19, see also MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III pp 132-134.)

 

  I’ve written about the “bath-ball”:

 

If I were kneading soap powder into a ball in a copper vessel, I would have one hand kneading soap and one hand on the vessel. The press of the hand kneading soap would find something of an opposite pressure from the hand holding the vessel, even if the bottom of the vessel were resting on the ground.

 

More particularly:

 

… the exercise becomes in part the distinction of the direction of turn that I’m feeling at the location of awareness… that distinction allows the appropriate counter from everything that surrounds the place of awareness.

 

I would say that gravity and handedness (I’m right-handed) are the source of my feeling of outward force at the location of awareness, and the activity of the muscles of posture in response to the stretch of ligaments is the source of the counter.

 

Omori Sogen, a Rinzai Zen teacher, spoke about centrifugal and centripetal forces connected with seated meditation:

 

Thus, by means of the equilibrium of the centrifugal and the centripetal force, the whole body is brought to a state of zero and spiritual power will pervade the whole body intensely.

 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training:  A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 61).

 

Gautama also said:

 

… a good (person] reflects thus: “Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [me]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states]. 

 

(MN 113, tr. Pali Text Society vol III pp 92-94.)

 

 

Gautama has a metaphor for each of the first four concentrations, the concentrations leading to the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. There was another set of concentrations that he always described after his description of the first four, when he described them:

 

The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”:

 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. (4)

 

The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.

 

(Appendix-From the Early Record)

 

 

My take on the first of the further states:

 

When the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of the mind of compassion, there can be a feeling that the necessity of breath is connected to things that lie outside the boundaries of the senses.  That, to me, is an experience of “the plane of infinite ether”.

 

(The Inconceivable Nature of the Wind)
 

 

Kobun Chino Otogawa, from Aspects of Sitting Meditation on the jikoji site:

 

Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. The dynamics of all Buddhas are in it. When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture! 

 

The question is, when you feel your mind is up in the corner of that two-story space, does that mind sit? In particular, is the activity of breath effortless, as effortless as getting up out of chair correctly?

 

…good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction. This means that in the upright position there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit.

 

…When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs; this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all.

 

(“Awareness Through Movement”, © 1972, 1977 Moshe Feldenkrais, p 76, 78.)

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:51 PM by Mark Foote

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

when you are sitting (or walking or supine or standing or doing qi gong), however it is you meditate or tune into your awareness.....where is your point of awareness and do you move it around.  where is your "consciousness fastened there, bound there".  I know during qi gong i move my point of awareness to different places: to the diaphragm for deep breathing and expansion; or to the upper dantien turning it, or to the coccyx pointing down drawing a circle on the ground, for example.

 

Quote

(a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease. 

 

for me that sounds like a good qi gong session and how it feels

 

Quote

Omori Sogen, a Rinzai Zen teacher, spoke about centrifugal and centripetal forces connected with seated meditation: Thus, by means of the equilibrium of the centrifugal and the centripetal force, the whole body is brought to a state of zero and spiritual power will pervade the whole body intensely.

 

i don't do seated meditation but i do seated (and standing and moving) qi gong.    "State of zero" for me i associate with stillness (and therapeutic stillpoint where everything pauses and healing occurs) and at times a sense of my body dissolving; and time is gone, there is no time.  What is felt as "spiritual power pervades the whole body intensely" i associate with feeling very "charged" during and after qi gong.

 

Quote

inhalation and exhalation. extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”: a mind of friendliness ... compassion…  equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, 

 

When the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of the mind of compassion, there can be a feeling that the necessity of breath is connected to things that lie outside the boundaries of the senses.  That, to me, is an experience of “the plane of infinite ether”.

 

again for me i don't do sitting meditation, but in the sloooooooooow eyes closed qi gong that i do, yes there is attention to breath for me that is attention to deep breath and movement of the diaphragm.  accompanying that for me is internally hearing saying "release, absorb" with awareness to connect to the stars and beyond in all directions of my body.  This often brings the sensation of not being able to feel the outer edge of my body, it is dissolved and i just feel very very big expanding in all directions.   

 

 

Quote

The question is, when you feel your mind is up in the corner of that two-story space, does that mind sit? In particular, is the activity of breath effortless, as effortless as getting up out of chair correctly?

 

no my point of awareness does not sit or stand or recline or walk.  My point of consciousness is just a point.  It is viewing my body walking, and the trees and the sidewalk and the ponds and the turtle and the ducks.  I do that exercise either at home just going about my daily activities, or when i am out walking.  Yes there is ease of movement and ease of breath.  It takes some getting used to, to hold both perspectives at the same time, the perspective of me taking a walk or fixing supper; and the "birds eye" perspective i view from my point of awareness up in the corner of the clear cube watching the scene.  I find it very restful being a point.  It feels very pleasant and natural.

 

Quote

…good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction. This means that in the upright position there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit.

 

this is great Mark, thank you for the thoughtful and detailed response.  I don't do seated meditation, in part because i just feel too antsy to sit still (but have no problem with seated qi gong, fine with that).  And in part because it is just uncomfortable.  And in part because  i want whatever path or practice i have to be part of my regular daily life and activities and not "separate" to seated meditation.   Not doing "just" seated meditation could also be my rebellion from sitting at a desk job and having that association.  

 

For receiving inspiration and intuition, it is strongest when I am reading or walking or playing Tetris.  For being able to drop into deep stillness and "no-time" and feel that "zest, ease, and power filling the body intensely" it is qi gong (during and after, and also like right now thinking about how it feels in qi gong).    Or throughout daily chores if i "visualize" myself doing qi gong movements then i can feel it intensely then too.

 

Edited Monday at 11:24 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

The end point of "all physical objects" are contained within and are contents of my infinite self (or consciousness) is that the finite physical universe itself and everything in it,  is also contained within my infinite non-physical self.

 

You have a LOT of traction here, friend.

 

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

which means just as every person has their own "thoughts" that other people are not privy to, has their own dreams that other people do not see or inhabit.  Then every person has their own universe that other people do not see or inhabit. 

 

Yes, only I wouldn't jump to that last conclusion.

 

I'll just say this: All dualities are delusions. Ultimately there is just what is perceived in THIS MOMENT,  RIGHT HERE by empty awareness. Other people? That is possibly a story for another time, but it is obvious we cannot experience reality the way they do...  if they have their own reality it is entirely theirs. 

 

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

That is where this leads and that is what I want to hear more on.  Cut to the chase, the universe is a thought of mine (or a dream) and has no more substance than a thought or a dream.  What is finite and limited and comes and goes is NOT real.  What is infinite no beginning no end no form no space no time IS real.  That is my point of awareness. I AM THAT.

 

Well, yes... and no. Rather than saying it is an illusion, I like to say that it is illusory, and yes, dreamlike. The Relative world emanates from emptiness (the Absolute). What is finite and limited comes and goes, is not ABSOLUTE. That which is absolute is without dualities, is without beginning and end, here or there, or I and thou. The only thing that is NOT impermanent is awareness/Rigpa/Buddha Nature/Dao BUT it is not separate from that which IS impermanent. Makes your head hurt.

 

Awareness is everywhere. It doesn't have a location. YOU don't have a location - you create one based on which phenomena you have bundled together and labeled "I". At the same time, you can collapse that and see the body as "mine". It is a case of identification - we identify as an "I" in a body, so that is our experience. It IS just a thought, however, as you suggest.   Meditation where the mind is quiet and still is identification with awareness rather than the "I" which is why it is such a great idea. 

[Lairg]

19 minutes ago, stirling said:

The Relative world emanates from emptiness (the Absolute). What is finite and limited comes and goes, is not ABSOLUTE.

 

Quite so.

 

Does the manifested Existence have any purpose?

 

If it does, does the human race have any purpose?

 

If it does, how do we go about it?

 

Perhaps the Absolute was feeling bored when It decided to cause Existence?

 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

I think it was a passing thought.  "what it would be like if...." and boom the material universe and everything in it emerged.  Then it was like "oh that doesn't really work does it.  scratch that idea.  duality, nah.  time space and form, nah."  but the cast of characters in the universe are still stuck in the same repetitive cycle over and over.  until they can get out.  if i am having a bad dream the way to get out is to wake up and realize oh it wasn't real.  Poof the dream goes away it has no substance.  But when i am still in the dream it feels oh so very real.  The infinite is unlimited.  the material universe is limited.  that's why it doesn't work.

 

Awareness/Dao is not limited to expressing only as a limited duality physical universe.  It surely expresses in myriad other ways.  Becuase it is after all unlimited. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:05 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Quite so.

 

Does the manifested Existence have any purpose?

 

Whatever is present when the mind is still and thoughts have dropped off is the reality of things. You can look for yourself if you have a  meditation practice where you allow your mind to find stillness. This is the route to discovering the answer to this experientially, which is really the only way that matters.

 

Short answer: Purpose is a story about creation and destruction, a creator, a destroyer and an imperative. Time is not an absolute construct. We can use reason to determine that the past and the future aren't places we can visit, they only exist as thoughts that arise now. Experiential knowledge is what you are after - it doesn't come from the thinking mind. When the mind is still, notice if there is a past and future, or if they depend on the storytelling of your thinking mind. 

 

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

If it does, does the human race have any purpose?

 

Humans are SUPPOSED to be the only beings that can become enlightened, according to Buddhism. That is a Relative story, however. See above. 

 

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

If it does, how do we go about it?

 

IF it does, in a Relative sense, it must be to realize the error of our storytelling and understand what we truly are.

 

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Perhaps the Absolute was feeling bored when It decided to cause Existence?

 

The Absolute becomes endarkened every time we tell a story about our experience of the world and our separateness from it. As long as we are in bondage to the story of our separateness we will continue to live in duality. 

 

A little about the Absolute and the Relative as concepts:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine#:~:text=Essence-function in Korean Buddhism,-See also%3A Korean&text=The polarity of absolute and,realities%2C but interpenetrate each other.

[stirling]

7 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

I think it was a passing thought.  "what it would be like if...." and boom the material universe and everything in it emerged.  Then it was like "oh that doesn't really work does it.  scratch that idea.  duality, nah.  time space and form, nah."  but the cast of characters in the universe are still stuck in the same repetitive cycle over and over.  until they can get out.  if i am having a bad dream the way to get out is to wake up and realize oh it wasn't real.  Poof the dream goes away it has no substance.  But when i am still in the dream it feels oh so very real.  The infinite is unlimited.  the material universe is limited.  that's why it doesn't work.

 

WE do this, over and over, every day. WE create it.

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

I'll just say this: All dualities are delusions. Ultimately there is just what is perceived in THIS MOMENT,  RIGHT HERE by empty awareness. Other people? That is possibly a story for another time, but it is obvious we cannot experience reality the way they do...  if they have their own reality it is entirely theirs. 

 

yes.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Well, yes... and no. Rather than saying it is an illusion, I like to say that it is illusory, and yes, dreamlike. The Relative world emanates from emptiness (the Absolute). What is finite and limited comes and goes, is not ABSOLUTE. That which is absolute is without dualities, is without beginning and end, here or there, or I and thou. The only thing that is NOT impermanent is awareness/Rigpa/Buddha Nature/ Dao BUT it is not separate from that which IS impermanent. Makes your head hurt.

 

 

OK .  Relative and absolute makes sense.  Relative is duality and time and space and form and temporary it comes and goes so is not the real me.  Absolute is permanent and is the real me.    However there is a codicil to this part:

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Awareness/ Dao is not separate from that which IS impermanent.

 

Yes and No.

From the perspective of within the illusory universe, Awareness/Dao is present and not separate from physical material universe.   The universe is reliant upon and needs Dao for its existence.  There can be no universe without the Dao.  

 

The reverse however does NOT hold true.  Awareness/Dao does NOT rely on the universe.  The Dao does NOT need the ten thousand things.  The Dao precedes the ten thousand things.   For instance  If human me is having a dream, that dream only exists because of me.  when i wake up the dream is gone. But  I am still here.  I don't need the dream to exist.  The dream does need me to exist.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Awareness is everywhere. It doesn't have a location. YOU don't have a location - you create one based on which phenomena you have bundled together and labeled "I". At the same time, you can collapse that and see the body as "mine". It is a case of identification - we identify as an "I" in a body, so that is our experience. It IS just a thought, however, as you suggest.   Meditation where the mind is quiet and still is identification with awareness rather than the "I" which is why it is such a great idea. 

 

 

Thanks Stirling!  it is a joy to even be able to have a conversation about this stuff

[BigSkyDiamond]

41 minutes ago, stirling said:

WE do this, over and over, every day. WE create it.

 

yes. and since i created this limited duality universe which i inhabit,

then I can uncreate it.  

this does not affect anyone else's universe. they have to each get out of their own dream.

 

even traditional theology recognizes this.  God created the universe, except its NOT past tense, it is present tense.  God is literally creating and sustaining the universe every second.

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:37 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Awareness is everywhere. It doesn't have a location. YOU don't have a location - . 

 

that's why it feels so good and restful and appealing when i am simply a point.  Of awareness.

(in the exercise described earlier)

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:30 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

48 minutes ago, stirling said:

IF it does, in a Relative sense, it must be to realize the error of our storytelling and understand what we truly are.

 

yes.  if i had to say right now, i would say the purpose (for me) of being human in a limited duality physical universe  is to figure out how to get out.  And then put it into practice and actually do it. And yes to recognize the truth of who i am.

 

Quote

The Absolute becomes endarkened every time we tell a story about our experience of the world and our separateness from it. As long as we are in bondage to the story of our separateness we will continue to live in duality. 

 

So then (for me) waking up from the dream, dissolving the universe, exiting the worlds of Separation includes letting go of all belief in Separation.  When i no longer believe in it, then  i withdraw and remove my attention from it.  When i withdraw my attention, then i no longer maintain it.  And it dissolves.  

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:42 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

so then related question for anyone.  What does "enlightenment" or Awakening look like for you in your own frame of reference?  Do you stay in the physical universes multiverses of duality?  Or leave it altogether never to return?  Since you are infinite you still exist, just not in the universes of duality.  

 

what is the end game for whatever path you embrace or practice?

 

Great discussion, i love it.

Edited Tuesday at 02:45 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

19 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

OK .  Relative and absolute makes sense.  Relative is duality and time and space and form and temporary it comes and goes so is not the real me.  Absolute is permanent and is the real me. 

 

So there is an Absolute and something else that isn't? That would constitute a duality, right?

Something I neglected to mention: The "Two Truths" Doctrine is a Relative teaching.  It is a convenient way of talking about the nature of things, but is NOT the reality itself. In truth, the Absolute confounds description.

 

19 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

From the perspective of within the illusory universe, Awareness/Dao is present and not separate from physical material universe.   The universe is reliant upon and needs Dao for its existence.  There can be no universe without the Dao.  

 

The reverse however does NOT hold true.  Awareness/Dao does NOT rely on the universe.  The Dao does NOT need the ten thousand things.  The Dao precedes the ten thousand things.   For instance  If human me is having a dream, that dream only exists because of me.  when i wake up the dream is gone. But  I am still here.  I don't need the dream to exist.  The dream does need me to exist.

 

If you have had an introduction to the nature of mind/Rigpa/Emptiness/Dao, you can learn to see emptiness in this moment. If you have seen emptiness, have you ever seen it without form? Have you ever seen JUST the emptiness, not the emptiness in a tree, the sky, a leaf falling, etc. There is no one without the either. To paraphrase Buddhist thinker Ken Wilber: 

 

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Emptiness includes but supersedes Form.

 

...but form doesn't go anywhere. Emptiness is always right here, visible in the form. 

 

To quote Nagarjuna, the "Einstein of Mahayana Buddhism" and creator of the Madhyamaka philosophy:

 

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All philosophies are mental fabrications. There has never been a single doctrine by which one could enter the true essence of things. - Nagarjuna

 

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"All is empty" should not be asserted, nor should 'all is not empty,' 'all is both [empty and non-empty],' nor 'all is neither [empty nor non-empty].'" - Nagarjuna

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka

 

Strangely, even the philosophy of "emptiness" is empty. 

 

19 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Thanks Stirling!  it is a joy to even be able to have a conversation about this stuff

 

One of my favorite topics! My pleasure.

[stirling]

49 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

yes. and since i created this limited duality universe which i inhabit,

then I can uncreate it.  

this does not affect anyone else's universe. they have to each get out of their own dream.

 

even traditional theology recognizes this.  God created the universe, except its NOT past tense, it is present tense.  God is literally creating and sustaining the universe every second.

 

I wondered about this too in the past, but it hasn't been my experience that we have specific or focused ability to create reality, only the ability to see through it. While it IS possible to alter our experience of the world with intention and loving kindness, I don't know of anyone with realization that can completely uncreate or reshape the Relative world. 

[stirling]

33 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

yes.  if i had to say right now, i would say the purpose (for me) of being human in a limited duality physical universe  is to figure out how to get out.  And then put it into practice and actually do it. And yes to recognize the truth of who i am.

 

...and then realize that there was never a bondage, or anything to get out of. 

 

33 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

So then (for me) waking up from the dream, dissolving the universe, exiting the worlds of Separation includes letting go of all belief in Separation.  When i no longer believe in it, then  i withdraw and remove my attention from it.  When i withdraw my attention, then i no longer maintain it.  And it dissolves.

 

[stirling]

18 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

so then related question for anyone.  What does "enlightenment" or Awakening look like for you in your own frame of reference?  Do you stay in the physical universes multiverses of duality?  Or leave it altogether never to return?  Since you are infinite you still exist, just not in the universes of duality.

 

Awakening happens here, now. What does it look like? It looks like this, only it can be seen that emptiness is the primary salient characteristic of all form, and that form and emptiness are inseparable. Time, Space, and Self are all obvious delusions. 

 

There is nowhere to go but here, no-time  to be in aside from now. 

 

18 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

what is the end game for whatever path you embrace or practice?

 

Feel free to message me for more detail or specific questions.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

What does "enlightenment" or Awakening look like for you in your own frame of reference? 

 

It may be that the state of relatively free flow of Light through the persona (mask) is the entry price for entering into the local cosmic community.

 

Then, through work and experience the new cosmic worker progressively increases the flow of Light through the transpersonal bodies/vehicles - buddhi, atma etc

 

After the transpersonal vehicles the cosmic worker begins to develop cosmic, universal and trans-universal vehicles and relationships to contribute to the great work 

 

In some accounts the local cosmic community is managed through Sirius, but there are many levels beyond 

 

 

The other day I was thinking that trans-universal is a clunky term.  Immediately the word Empyrean came spelt into my mind

 

 In ancient European cosmologies inspired by Aristotle, the Empyrean heaven, Empyreal or simply the Empyrean, was the place in the highest heaven which was supposed to be occupied by the element of fire (or aether in Aristotle's natural philosophy).

 

I suspect that Aristotle has been interpreted through religious filters

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empyrean

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:47 AM by Lairg

[BigSkyDiamond]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

Awakening happens here, now. What does it look like? It looks like this, only it can be seen that emptiness is the primary salient characteristic of all form, and that form and emptiness are inseparable. Time, Space, and Self are all obvious delusions. There is nowhere to go but here, no-time  to be in aside from now. 

 

yes that aptly describes from within the worlds of separation.  (except i don't use "emptiness" because for me it indicates absence or lack; and Dao is always present.)  So in the worlds of duality and separation (the universe and everything in it) yes form and Dao are inseparable.  

 

What i am saying though is that the Dao also expresses in ways that are NOT duality, that are NOT separation. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:06 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

12 hours ago, stirling said:

...and then realize that there was never a bondage, or anything to get out of. 

 

for me it is getting out of the worlds of separation, never to return again.  Exiting the repetitive cycle of reincarnation and rebirth, and also exiting the worlds of separation altogether.  That is the perspective from the me within the relative, the me inside the dream.  And it stems from the awareness that being stuck in the worlds of separation is a dream, it feels  real but it has no substance and it's time to wake up.  

 

at the level of the Absolute, this has already happened.  at the level of the Absolute i never really entered the worlds of separation. At the level of the Absolute it was a passing thought that was instantly dismissed as, well, untenable.  

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:10 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

48 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

What i am saying though is that the Dao also expresses in ways that are NOT duality, that are NOT separation. 

 

Every "enlightened" colleague I have had the pleasure to know would say that the only way to SEE the "Dao" is to look at the phenomenal world of form. 

 

This is why the Buddha said, so elegantly and clearly:

 

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... form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself form. Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like this. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

Think of it like this: You are holding up a prism and looking at reality. It distorts what you see somewhat, but there are recognizable separate and familiar objects in your perspective through it. There is a chair, a table, etc.

 

Now imagine that, through a dramatic shift, that prism shifts over just ONE facet and that, in addition to still seeing the previous view there is now one other unmistakeable and overwhelmingly pervasive characteristic - the ability to also simultaneously see the sharp, vivid, still, silent lack of ANY separateness or characteristics in that view. You can still see the chair and table, but they are simultaneously inseparable from the whole AND also the same named, labeled objects with purposes and characteristics they have always been.

 

We can't look at any other world that this one, so THIS is where we apprehend the Dao/emptiness.