moving our point of consciousness; and the universe as a thought we are thinking

[stirling]

37 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

for me it is getting out of the worlds of separation, never to return again.  Exiting the repetitive cycle of reincarnation and rebirth, and also exiting the worlds of separation altogether.  That is the perspective from the me within the relative, the me inside the dream.  And it stems from the awareness that being stuck in the worlds of separation is a dream, it feels  real but it has no substance and it's time to wake up.

 

That may be how things end up, but there aren't teachings that really reach out that far that aren't storytelling and have the Dao as their basis, at least as far as I am aware.... and I have looked.

 

Even the Buddha said that once "self" is dropped, you can let go of Buddhism in his raft story. As the 6th Zen patriarch said:

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

Where "self" has completely dropped away and identification is now with the Dao/Rigpa/awareness/emptiness there IS no reincarnation or rebirth. Belief in the idea of some place you have been or someplace to go drops away as the concept of Space collapses. This is true also for separation. Over time, the experience of a "self" separate from experience drops away as dualities fall away. None of this means you are going anywhere, unless the intention arises in you to move to a new house, or make new friends. Even then, you haven't really gone anywhere. 

 

You only wake up once, but the dream of separateness doesn't go anywhere as far as I can tell... it is just understood to be what it is.

 

37 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

at the level of the Absolute, this has already happened.  at the level of the Absolute i never really entered the worlds of separation. At the level of the Absolute it was a passing thought that was instantly dismissed as, well, untenable.  

 

There is a fairly simple (but difficult to grasp) misunderstanding. Sometimes that misunderstanding becomes clear.

[BigSkyDiamond]

23 minutes ago, stirling said:

Every "enlightened" colleague I have had the pleasure to know would say that the only way to SEE the "Dao" is to look at the phenomenal world of form.  We can't look at any other world that this one, so THIS is where we apprehend the Dao/emptiness. 

 

yes, when we are in the world of form, the map to the Dao is through the world of form.  So yes, that is how we recognize the Dao and experience it.  However the Dao is also the map to beyond the world of form.

 

The  Dao is outside of time, not bound by space or form, unchanging.  And since the Dao is the essence and truth of who we are, then those realms are also available to us (outside of time, not bound by space or form, unchanging).  

 

Edited June 24 by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

56 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

However the Dao is also the map to beyond the world of form.

 

You mean Daoism, some specific text(s)?

 

56 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

The  Dao is outside of time, not bound by space or form, unchanging.  And since the Dao is the essence and truth of who we are, then those realms are also available to us (outside of time, not bound by space or form, unchanging).  

 

Absolutely... but all of that can be seen right now, right here. It can even be seen by someone without insight, actually. To enlightened mind other realms, gods, dimensions, would still appear as Relative constructs. Enlightened mind would see that the "Dao" is the salient quality of those locations/beings/planes as well - that they didn't constitute some higher understanding or experience.

[BigSkyDiamond]

4 minutes ago, stirling said:

You mean Daoism, some specific text(s)?

 

Not Daoism the religion.  The Tao Te Ching.

(Thank you for the message, i am working on reply and will send message in a bit.)

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Absolutely... but all of that can be seen right now, right here. It can even be seen by someone without insight, actually. To enlightened mind other realms, gods, dimensions, would still appear as Relative constructs. Enlightened mind would see that the "Dao" is the salient quality of those locations/beings/planes as well - that they didn't constitute some higher understanding or experience.

 

i agree.  Everything listed in bold above is yes within the "universe and everything in it" and yes is a relative construct. Because all of that is within the worlds of separation. All of that is the "ten thousand things."   I am talking about going beyond and outside of the worlds of separation.  Moving back up the ladder that is the flow chart in  the first four lines of verse 42, Tao Te Ching. 

 

The ten thousand things appear last in this sequence.  There is no time or space or form at the level of the first line with "the Tao" and "the One."  (It is another conversation to have regarding the distinction between the Dao and the One).  But there is no Separation and there is no duality at that stage.  Duality, time, space, and form appear in lines two, three, and four.  I read that as a sequence of the physical finite limited  emerging from the non-physical infinite no-time. And that it is a ladder that goes both ways. So it can be used as a return to Source.

 

There is a phrase "descent for the sake of ascent." Descending into physical matter, and then ascending back to Source.  An earlier post metioned learning the truth of who we are.  This is the experiential practice, climbing back up the ladder to Source.  

 

sample translation, from verse 42, Tao Te Ching

 

"Tao begets one.
One begets two.
Two beget three.
And three beget the Ten Thousand Things."

 

Edited June 24 by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

I also see it in terms of the creative process.  Hanging out with and listening to artists and writers and musicians describe how they create and where it comes from.  That their finished works exist already at another plane and they are simply bringing them into the physical world.  

[Mark Foote]

On 6/23/2025 at 4:14 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

when you are sitting (or walking or supine or standing or doing qi gong), however it is you meditate or tune into your awareness.....where is your point of awareness and do you move it around.  where is your "consciousness fastened there, bound there".  I know during qi gong i move my point of awareness to different places: to the diaphragm for deep breathing and expansion; or to the upper dantien turning it, or to the coccyx pointing down drawing a circle on the ground, for example.
 

 

 

Where is your point of awareness when you make no effort to place it, that's the question:

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican])

 

 

Quote

 

no my point of awareness does not sit or stand or recline or walk.       

 

 

 

"I'm not afraid that my point of awarensess is going to sit or stand or recline or walk."

 

 

 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, my recollection of a lecture at S. F. Zen Center in the 1980’s)

 

 

Quote

 

My point of consciousness is just a point.  It is viewing my body walking, and the trees and the sidewalk and the ponds and the turtle and the ducks.  I do that exercise either at home just going about my daily activities, or when i am out walking.  Yes there is ease of movement and ease of breath.  It takes some getting used to, to hold both perspectives at the same time, the perspective of me taking a walk or fixing supper; and the "birds eye" perspective i view from my point of awareness up in the corner of the clear cube watching the scene.  I find it very restful being a point.  It feels very pleasant and natural.
 

 

 

A key aspect of the bodily self is self-location, the experience that the self is localized at a specific position in space within one’s bodily borders (embodied self-location).

(Journal of Neuroscience 26 May 2010, 30 (21) 7202-7214)
 

 

Where is the embodied point of consciousness, at this moment? The point of consciousness that is tied to the body, that takes place in the body, that can be now here and now there (or not), that moves (or not). A lot of my practice is to relax, stay calm, let thought play appropriately, and look to the embodied point of consciousness for automatic activity in the body.

From the piece I'm working on now (subject to change!):

 

When habit and volition fall away, the feeling of ease ceases, and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation becomes solely by virtue of the location of consciousness. At such time, Gautama declared that one should:

 

… (suffuse one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. 

(AN 5.28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 19.)
 

 

Thus, the body is kept open to a point-wise “embodied self-location” of consciousness.

The penultimate element of the mindfulness that made up Gautama’s way of living was:
 

I will breathe in… breathe out… beholding stopping.

(MN 118, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III p 126)
 

 

“Beholding stopping” is beholding the cessation of habit and volition in activity. To “breathe in… breathe out… beholding stopping” implies a cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. As Yuanwu wrote:

“… this will be the place of peace and bliss where you stop and rest… ”

 

That’s not to say that arriving at rest from volition necessarily comes easily:

 

Suppose that you have climbed to the top of a hundred-foot pole, and are told to let go and advance one step further without holding bodily life dear. In such a situation, if you say that you can practice the Buddha-Way only when you are alive, you are not really following your teacher. Consider this carefully.

(“Shobogenzo-zuimonki: Sayings of Eihei Dogen Zenji, recorded by Koun Ejo”, 1-13, tr Shohaku Okumura, Soto-Shu Shumucho p 45-46)
 

 

You must strive with all your might to bite through here and cut off conditioned habits of mind. Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality.

(Zen Letters, translated by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, p 84)
 

 

I personally find Gautama instructions helpful--I discuss 'em in Applying the Pali Instructions. 

 

 

Quote

 

this is great Mark, thank you for the thoughtful and detailed response.  I don't do seated meditation, in part because i just feel too antsy to sit still (but have no problem with seated qi gong, fine with that).  And in part because it is just uncomfortable.  And in part because  i want whatever path or practice i have to be part of my regular daily life and activities and not "separate" to seated meditation.   Not doing "just" seated meditation could also be my rebellion from sitting at a desk job and having that association.  

 

 

 

You may find my description of kinesiology in The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns useful. Without that, I could not get to the top of the pole, much less advance one step further.

About sitting:

 

Gautama began his instructions on mindfulness with advice on the appropriate setting, and on the posture to adopt:
 

Herein… (one) who is forest-gone or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty place, sits down cross-legged, holding (their) back erect, arousing mindfulness…

(MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III pp 130-132)

 

That Gautama’s mindfulness was his way of living implies that once he had aroused his mindfulness, he could continue that mindfulness in other settings and in other postures.
 

At the start of his descriptions of the fourth concentration, Gautama noted that:
 

(A person)… comes to be sitting down…

(MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society p 134)

 

Nevertheless, I believe that once Gautama had attained the fourth concentration, he could surrender activity of the body to the free location of consciousness in any posture.

 

(The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns)

 

 

Taken from a conversation I had in the comment section of Brad Warner's "Hardcore Zen" blog, back when he allowed comments:

 

 

Of late, I spend a few minutes when I first sit down doing what you suggest, letting attention go to the area of my sacrum and its movement vis-a-vis the ilia. I also rock back and forward, sideways, and observe the rotation that naturally occurs. Then I think of the basic Alexander Technique instruction, “Let my neck be free.” etc. Once I’ve adjusted and settled in this way, I put my hands in the mudra, and start my zazen. I also use double mats below the cushion at home, or even bed pillows.

 

Since I started limbering up in this way, I can sit comfortably in half-lotus for two rounds of 40 minutes, with kinhin between. Not just bearably, actually in comfort. I didn’t even know that was a possibility.

(“Shinchan Ohara”, Brad Warner’s “Hardcore Zen” blog comment section, March 4th 2015)

 

However long you can sit, is fine, for starters. I sit 25's, I sit 30's, I sit 35's, I sit 40's. I sit short sittings, if something comes up, or I decide I've had enough.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Where is your point of awareness when you make no effort to place it, that's the question:

it’s an excellent question to examine carefully. It is in fact everywhere in the field experience, and nowhere at all. You aren’t really doing Shikantaza until this is something that you can see properly. This is why Shikantaza is not different from enlightened mind. Everything is Mind. You are liberating all phenomena in the moment that labeling them stops.

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

it’s an excellent question to examine carefully. It is in fact everywhere in the field experience, and nowhere at all. You aren’t really doing Shikantaza until this is something that you can see properly. This is why Shikantaza is not different from enlightened mind. Everything is Mind. You are liberating all phenomena in the moment that labeling them stops.
 

 

 

“... as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so... a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society Vol II p 217; see also AN Pali Text Society vol IV pp 202-203)

 

 

From something on my site:

 

On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote:

 

Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.

 

 

I was reminded of Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers)

 

 

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)
 

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

("Take the Backward Step")

"A friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location"--that's another friend of mine, Stirling, not you!--your point of view on the nature of consciousness is widely shared, I know.  As far as realizing the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and so "just sitting", I"m not sure how that point of view enters into practice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote:

 

Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.

 

Yes. Good. I like "awareneness" or "beingness" as descriptors. 

 

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

What he means here is that one can take observation of what this all is and reduce it, and reduce it again until one arrives at a final simple conclusion - there is just awareness shining back. 

 

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

("Take the Backward Step")

 

This is too complicated, IMHO. It's all really simple. No places, relationships, activities, or placement. This moment just is, and there is a simple awareness of that which belongs to no-one and no-thing - pervades the field of phenomena. Arriving at this simple understanding is hard for us humans, especially those of us with the burden of education. It took me years to realized what a handicap it was for me.

 

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

As far as realizing the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and so "just sitting", I"m not sure how that point of view enters into practice.

 

Practice is just being, without contrived concepts about how to go about it. You can find practices with massive to-do lists, but they all eventually point to this simple being. The Zen you got mixed up in so long ago is all about this simple "being" right from the start... the Theravada that interests you much less so, though they point at the same understanding.

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

Quote

 

Quote

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

This is too complicated, IMHO. It's all really simple. No places, relationships, activities, or placement. This moment just is, and there is a simple awareness of that which belongs to no-one and no-thing - pervades the field of phenomena. Arriving at this simple understanding is hard for us humans, especially those of us with the burden of education. It took me years to realized what a handicap it was for me.
 

Is Dogen saying something there, when he says "find your place where you are", when he says "practice occurs", and when he says "actualizing the fundamental point"?

 

Quote

 

Practice is just being, without contrived concepts about how to go about it. You can find practices with massive to-do lists, but they all eventually point to this simple being. The Zen you got mixed up in so long ago is all about this simple "being" right from the start... the Theravada that interests you much less so, though they point at the same understanding.
 

 

What's the difference between "just sitting" on the couch watching the Simpsons, and the "just sitting" that is shikantaza? 
 

 

The Theravada doesn't interest me. The first four Nikayas of the Pali Canon interest me, as do the writings of Yuanwu and Dogen.

 

 

Edited June 29 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Is Dogen saying something there, when he says "find your place where you are", when he says "practice occurs", and when he says "actualizing the fundamental point"?

 

Yes, Dogen IS saying something, absolutely. He is saying: "When you actualize your practice it happens here... NOW." Realization of enlightenment doesn't happen in the past or future, it happens when you drop all of your doing and find sudden presence in this moment by sitting". Awaken, and actualize the practice NOW.

 

Quote

What's the difference between "just sitting" on the couch watching the Simpsons, and the "just sitting" that is shikantaza? 

 

The dream of watching the world is the same as the dream of becoming engrossed watching television. The moment you become engaged in the story of what you watch you are lost. 

 

There is watching phenomena arise and pass, impermanent, not being caught up in the story of the mind. There is simple presence, and the emptiness of self/time/space. This happens all the time... it is just waiting for you to notice. Take a deep breath and let it out from your mouth slowly as you read this sentence. Maybe it is happening now as you read these words?

[BigSkyDiamond]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

What's the difference between "just sitting" on the couch watching the Simpsons, and the "just sitting" that is shikantaza? 

 

Eckhart Tolle explains the difference as:  zoning out (falling asleep, drinking alcohol, watching TV) is "falling below thinking"; while alert  awareness, alert presence is "rising above thinking."

 

 

falling below thought
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9531996-so-does-tv-watching-create-inner-space-does-it-cause#:~:text=So when watching television%2C the,has a strong addictive quality.

 

 

Edited June 30 by BigSkyDiamond

[Mark Foote]

On 6/29/2025 at 11:18 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Eckhart Tolle explains the difference as:  zoning out (falling asleep, drinking alcohol, watching TV) is "falling below thinking"; while alert  awareness, alert presence is "rising above thinking."

 

 

falling below thought
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9531996-so-does-tv-watching-create-inner-space-does-it-cause#:~:text=So when watching television%2C the,has a strong addictive quality.

 

My favorite quote, about thought:

 

 

As (one) abides in body contemplating body, either some bodily object arises, or bodily discomfort or drowsiness of mind scatters (one’s) thoughts abroad to externals. Thereupon… (one’s) attention should be directed to some pleasurable object of thought. As (one) thus directs it to some pleasurable object of thought, delight springs up in (one’s being). In (one), thus delighted, arises zest. Full of zest (one’s) body is calmed down. With body so calmed (one) experiences ease. The mind of one at ease is concentrated. (One) thus reflects: The aim on which I set my mind I have attained. Come, let me withdraw my mind [from pleasurable object of thought]. So (one) withdraws (one’s) mind therefrom, and neither starts nor carries on thought-process. Thus (one) is fully conscious: I am without thought initial or sustained. I am inwardly mindful. I am at ease.
 

(Gautama repeats the above for “As (one) contemplates feelings in feelings…”, “… mind in mind…”, “… mind-states in mind-states, either some mental object arises, or…”)
 

Such is the practice for the direction of mind.

 

And what… is the practice for the non-direction of mind?

 

(First,) by not directing (one’s) mind to externals, (one) is fully aware: My mind is not directed to externals. Then (one) is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then (one) is fully aware: In body contemplating body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

 

And (one) does the same with regard to feelings… to mind… and mind-states. Thus (one) is fully aware: In mind-states contemplating mind-states I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

 

This is the practice for the non-direction of mind.

(SN 47.10, tr. Pali Text Society vol. V pp134-136)