Whats the correct perspective on emotions? Where do emotion come from?

[BigSkyDiamond]

2 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

as the saying goes, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

 

oh my gosh, that actually has a name, it is Maslow's Hammer.

!!!

 

[stirling]

Two versions of this:

 

Quote

 

To a hammer everything is a nail, to the problem solver, everything is a problem. - Frank Heile

 

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow

 

 

I quote the first a lot as an illustration of the power of just dropping the recursive mind and realizing that IT is actually the source of "problems". This, that we are presently peering at, is just reality. There is no problem with it. 

[Bindi]

On 15/6/2025 at 9:55 PM, Bogge said:

Hi, 

I saw another post where the OP asked for strategies for clearing out the emotion of anger.

He got linked to the six sounds of qigong or something along those lines. 

It made me realize I have a completely different perspective on emotions. I always have thought of emotions are something you deal with mentally, they are ego that you as a seeker need to clear away with introspection, meditation, right view, etc. Something you have accumulated over lifetimes of wrong action. 

But I remember when taking huge doses of Iodine intense anger would sweep over me for a few seconds and after that I felt so much lighter. It most likely detoxed something in my liver. It made me ponder on the possibility of emotions are something that can be healed in the body, because they come from the body. If that makes sense?

Either way I am interested in more input and other perspectives and where emotions come from, how we can deal with them, and so on.

Thanks. 

My take on where emotions come from:  I see the two subtle body side channels as being literally the channels of emotional and mental energise, from my perspective emotional energy goes up Ida Nadi and mental energy comes down Pingala Nadi. Note these are side channels, and this equates to the importance of thoughts and emotions. Important, but not as important as the central channel which carries “Shiva and Shakti’ energies. In my framework, if energy isn’t flowing up Ida and down Pingala, the fundamentals of the system are not in order, and the central channel can’t start operating, so for me emotional flow is the first thing to establish (as we seem to have a lot more trouble with our emotional flow than our mental flow), and everything else flows from that. 

[Cobie]

 

13 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... direct link to the Divine in me. ...

 

Yes.

 

13 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... thoughts and thinking mind (intuition is not that), ... reactive emotions (intuition is not that).  

 

I agree. 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

if people have long time suffering

 

every frame of reference / belief system / path of religion and spirituality / and even secular psychology

offers and provides tools for responding to pain, distress, hardship, misery, trauma

 

in your own frame of reference / belief system / path of religion and spirituality

how is suffering viewed, and what are the tools for dealing with it?  What are the healing methods available for distress and trauma?

 

Edited yesterday at 03:54 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

In secular psychology, blame is toxic and is a barrier to healing and recovery from trauma.  Blame prevents healthy behavior.  When we blame others we surrender the ability to make positive changes in our life, we give away our power to learn and grow from our life  experiences.  Blame has no purpose in recovering from trauma, and it prevents the process of healing. 

 

 

the beauty of this forum is that we get to see, hear, share, understand, and learn how a wide range of paths view and deal with whatever it is we are facing in life

 

Edited yesterday at 05:12 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[S:C]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

blame is toxic and is a barrier to healing and recovery from trauma.  Blame prevents healthy behavior.  When we blame others we surrender the ability to make positive changes in our life, we give away our power to learn and grow from our life  experiences.  Blame has no purpose in recovering from trauma, and it prevents the process of healing. 

 

18 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Other people places things situations circumstances are not responsible for my emotions.  I take 100% responsibility for all my thought, speech, actions, words, emotions, feelings, and attitudes.  They belong to me and only me.  [NOTE:  Responsibility is not blame.  It is essential to understand the difference and be able to differentiate "responsibility" from "blame."]   That is an element of healing for me, from both a secular psychological view, and also from my current religious practice.

 

of course each person has their own healing journey, their own frame of reference, and their own path of religion-and-spirituality.

 

 

Just curious: where exactly do you draw the line? 

 

I tend to favor your second opinion / quote from another thread here: Often enough the receiver is the interpreter of the message and can choose between responsibility and/or feeling blamed. The first seems mature, the second emotional (in my opinion). The questioner might just be looking for a neutral intention/causation chain explanation of your perspective and its you who mistakenly assume you are being blamed on a guilt tableau. added: and or at the same time give you advice that others won't handle the circumstances-causes-effects imposed upon themselves by you so well as they did and that you and or others might face severe consequences not being wished upon you or upon others by them. 

 

After all, on a certain level or through a certain perspective there's no difference between cause effect, observer and observed, still, some circumstances, causal or not, may require understanding for dissolution or healing or recovery of trauma. Few people seem to be able to show affinity as a different means to understanding. 

Mature people wish for affinity and peace in their interactions, but are understood falsely at times to be accusatory. 

 

So where do you draw your line?

 

Edited yesterday at 05:51 PM by S:C

[Krenx]

3 hours ago, S:C said:

 

 

 

So where do you draw your line?

 

 

It is a good question I used to ask myself. Because there are "blameworthy" behaviour. Behaviour that does cause harm to ourselves and others. We don't have to look that far outside of ourselves to see that we have all done actions worthy of the blame in the cause for someone else's suffering.  And that is obviously not a phenomena exclusive to us.

 

You already mentioned a big clue, is in the maturity of the individual's view and attitude towards the cause and effects of an event. 

 

It comes down to aversion. Aversion in specifically taking up ANY kind of responsibility is the issue. Responsibility around what you can do, past, present and future of an event, with all the resources you have to position yourself better. To not get into the habit of realizing the power and potential one has.

 

To blame out of aversion, is to hand over all that responsibility and power to do something about the situation, to hand over responsibility to unstable things like someone else, some other organization, society, entity, external phenomena. Shifting responsibility away basically, and foolishly hope for the best, end up suffering betrayal. 

 

Not saying you cannot depend on others to help your situation. But to "assume" 100% of your safety in unstable and impermenant things is a recipe for disaster. You are basically putting blind and foolish trust into things that WILL betray your "expectations", by its very imperment nature and design. And that constant turmoil between adopting ignorant expectations and constant betrayal causes the person to fall deeper into despair and confusion.  

 

So "seeing things as they really are" as the Buddha often said. To develop the right view and perspective of existence, and know clearly where your work and responsibilities are.

 

We come into this life, and not by the direct choice of our own, "adopted" this situation, this mind, this body. It is like adopting this wild animal. And it will bite and scream, and cause problems in the beginning, untrained. We did not wish this mind and body be in this state, we are not directly to blame for its baseline conditions, but we are nevertheless "responsible" for taming it.  Weather we like it or not. It is ours and ours alone. Other people might come tempt this wild animal with treats, and try to abuse it, but we as it's owner are responsible to guard this creature well, tame it. Nobody else is going to do it for us. 

Edited yesterday at 08:51 PM by Krenx

[BigSkyDiamond]

2 hours ago, S:C said:

Just curious: where exactly do you draw the line? 

So where do you draw your line?
 

 

i have to learn and understand and be able to differentiate between:

 

blame

responsibility

accountability

 

example:  I am not responsible for trauma i experienced as a young child.  As an adult, however I am responsible for seeking treatment to heal from that trauma.   If i inflict trauma on my own children, i am responsible for my behavior and I am held accountable for that behavior.  I don't blame my own parents for my current actions as an adult.  I am 100% responsible.  In this way (seeking treatment and healing, taking responsibility for my behavior, learning new and different and healthy ways of responding as a parent) the cycle of family violence is stopped. 

 

if there is no treatment sought, or if I don't put it into practice, and i continue to blame my parents (or anything else including people places things institutions society the world) for abc, xyz, for causing whatever misery is present currently in my life as an adult, then i stay stuck  in that misery and also the cycle of family abuse (in this example) continues generation after generation.   

 

Note that in the healthy model, there is no blame.  It is out of the picture.  Blame is gone.  Completely.  I don't blame myself. I don't blame others.  Blame is discarded entirely.    What remains are responsibility and accountability.  Why is blame discarded entirely?  Because it is toxic and crippling and keeps a person in victim mode.  This too is part of the healing and recovery from trauma.  Seeing myself not as a victim, but as a survivor.    Try the words on for size and see what each evokes for you.

 

 

[that is at the secular human level.  a separate post will cover at the soul level "but what about reincarnation and karma etc."]

 

Edited yesterday at 07:39 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[S:C]

2 hours ago, Krenx said:

Because there are "blameworthy" behaviour. Behaviour that does cause harm to ourselves and others. We don't have to look that far outside of ourselves to see that we have all done actions worthy of the blame in the cause for someone else's suffering.  And that is obviously not a phenomena exclusive to us.

 

You already mentioned a big clue, is in the maturity of the individual's maturity in view and attitude towards the cause and effects of an event. 

 

It comes down to aversion. 
(...)

 

To develop the right view and perspective of existence, and know clearly where your work and responsibilities are.

(...)

 

We did not wish this mind and body be in this state, (...), but we as it's owner are responsible to guard this creature well, tame it. Nobody else is going to do it for us.

 

Interesting, so you suggest radical acceptance, cultivated emotions and non-reactivity for after the subject-object paradigm shift?
Thus just as before, then you'll need a hell-of-a-guardian-angel to survive (or not-survive as a self subject, depending on your view).
'Be to yourself like you are to others?' Love others like yourself?

Now where do you draw the line, give and do work and distribute responsibilities emotions/feelings and blame/areas of personal responsibility, between healthily enough but flawed adults? someone being used to more responsibility will go down the same path all along, no?

 

You rely on the light having affinity with the shadow and the shadow protecting the light?

Lot's of trust in the universe not being lazy and relying on coincidences, eh? 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:58 PM by S:C

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

…  Why is blame discarded entirely?  Because it is toxic and crippling and keeps a person in victim mode.  …

Exactly. 100%

 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:08 PM by Cobie

[Krenx]

2 hours ago, S:C said:

Now where do you draw the line, give and do work and distribute responsibilities emotions/feelings and blame/responsibility, between healthily enough but flawed adults? 

 

 

Criticisms, and highlighting "blameworthy" behaviour in others, needs to come with the intention at the service of OTHERS, for the benefit of OTHERS, and for the benefit of the one you criticize. That is the boundary you maintain. 

 

When is that line/ boundary that we do not cross? It is when a criticism is made that serves your "self". When you blame others, criticize others, find fault in others to manage their minds and behaviour to serve your "personal preference". To ignorantly assume that they will do anything to accommodate to you when you blame them. 

 

My mother in law criticized my wife alot when she was a child growing up. And blamed alot of her unhappiness on my wife, just being a helpless 10 year old kid. And now my wife is an adult, this blame and criticism still continues.

 

My mother in law is 75 years old now. A single word used incorrectly in a sentence that breaks the comfort of her reality, she would go into a 3 day fit of rage. At this age, she still suffers, causes suffering. She continues to blame others for her circumstances. She expects and assume the world must accommodate to her preferences, when she was young, and must accommodate to her now. 

 

If 75 years of blaming did not improve her situation, did not improve her mind, did not give her peace, how many more years will she finally achieve the paradise that blame has to offer?

 

Declare virtue, virtue is universal. Criticize behaviours. But never assume safety in blaming someone else and expect them to change for you. Criticize skillfully to develop discernment for what is virtue, so you can develop that in yourself, and notice that in others, and navigate life skillfully, identifying virtuous people to associate with. Keep developing that skill.

Edited yesterday at 10:30 PM by Krenx

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

as the saying goes, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

 

 

 

The difference is , I backed up what I said with some detail .

 

Instead of just parroting  with  a quippy response . 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, stirling said:

Two versions of this:

 

 

I quote the first a lot as an illustration of the power of just dropping the recursive mind and realizing that IT is actually the source of "problems". This, that we are presently peering at, is just reality. There is no problem with it. 

 

Try explaining that to refugees that are ex  torture victims  when you are working with them trying to help them recover .  Tell that Iranian woman  I knew that had a little bit of muscle and flesh cut out each day  that it was not a false and evil belief , then a regime then certain people  that did that to her .... she just needed to " drop the recursive mind and realizing that IT is actually the source of "problems".

 

I think you are smart enough Sterling to know the difference and know what I am talking about . 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Try explaining that to ...

I think you are smart enough to ...

 

 

the frameworks that people are describing and discussing, are not directed towards other people.

they are for inner work and inner self reflection.  they are tools for inner healing, growth, self-improvement, spiritual advancement, and self-development.

 

what is directed outwards to other people is kindness and compassion.

 

And there is no need whatsoever to attack individual people posting.  Discuss the ideas and views and behaviors.  NOT individual people on the forum.

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Try explaining that to refugees that are ex  torture victims  when you are working with them trying to help them recover .  Tell that Iranian woman  I knew that had a little bit of muscle and flesh cut out each day  that it was not a false and evil belief , then a regime then certain people  that did that to her .... she just needed to " drop the recursive mind and realizing that IT is actually the source of "problems".

 

I think you are smart enough Sterling to know the difference and know what I am talking about .

 

It depends on the depth of your practice and understanding of reality, my friend. Does this kind of information help those that don't have those things? Of course not. Could it change YOUR experience of the world under more mild conditions? Oh, absolutely. I have many students and have met many students of other teachers from various traditions that have used their practice to transform their lives and the experience of suffering of emotional and physical pain. 

 

As for extreme examples, you COULD google "monk self-immolation" and see what sort of torture a person with dedicated training can endure. It isn't a pleasant rabbit hole, I wouldn't suggest it.

[Krenx]

2 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

the frameworks that people are describing and discussing, are not directed towards other people.

they are for inner work and inner self reflection.

 

what is directed outwards to other people is kindness and compassion.

 

 

 

 Agreed. And kindness and compassion is not enabling bad behavior. It is often calling it out, and recommending a better way to live life, to consider life and its phenomena. If they request it, request a discussion.  

 

But not everyone welcomes healthy criticism and beneficial suggestions like my mother in law. So remaining silent around her for the most part, being courteous, doing the best to keep some peace, not stirr up her mind to the best of my ability is part of it.  And creating some distance to reduce her chances to say harmfully things towards people close to her. 

[Bindi]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Try explaining that to refugees that are ex  torture victims  when you are working with them trying to help them recover .  Tell that Iranian woman  I knew that had a little bit of muscle and flesh cut out each day  that it was not a false and evil belief , then a regime then certain people  that did that to her .... she just needed to " drop the recursive mind and realizing that IT is actually the source of "problems".

 

I think you are smart enough Sterling to know the difference and know what I am talking about . 

 

 

 

Along the same lines people at various sorts of ‘how to get ahead’ type conferences are told the rape you experienced and your beliefs around it can just be let go of, everything is just a mind story that you don’t have to buy into. Without your story you can be rich/free/enlightened - whatever they’re selling on the day. People are fairly easily manipulated especially when in a large group all entertaining the same ideas. Utterly destructive in a holistic sense, but quite often a win in the moment for the leader of the conference and the attendees who have bought into the premise. 

[stirling]

4 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Along the same lines people at various sorts of ‘how to get ahead’ type conferences are told the rape you experienced and your beliefs around it can just be let go of, everything is just a mind story that you don’t have to buy into. Without your story you can be rich/free/enlightened - whatever they’re selling on the day. People are fairly easily manipulated especially when in a large group all entertaining the same ideas. Utterly destructive in a holistic sense, but quite often a win in the moment for the leader of the conference and the attendees who have bought into the premise. 

 

Not the same.

[BigSkyDiamond]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Not the same.

 

Not the same at all.

Nor is it what is presented in a therapeutic health care setting.

 

"someone trying to sell me something" is not a reliable source for health care guidance.  

 

Edited 23 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

every frame of reference / belief system / path of religion and spirituality / and even secular psychology

offers and provides tools for responding to pain, distress, hardship, misery, trauma

 

in your own frame of reference / belief system / path of religion and spirituality

how is suffering viewed, and what are the tools for dealing with it?  What are the healing methods available for distress and trauma?

 

 

Well, for a start I  don't just put up a banner saying  'suffering ' and crowd anyone under it  that might think they are suffering as all having the same issue and needing the same  treatment . 

 

And it should have been clear what type I was referring to  as I already explained that .

 

When I worked in the refugee relocation program  its a complex process involving  government administration, re integration , housing, counselling , psychology . One might bring them into their own house   ( well back when I did you were allowed to . now they lock them and the kids up behind razor wire   .... the 'Villawood Immigration Center ' I used to get able to go to  and take people out for the day  is now called 'The Villawood Detention Center '  ) 

 

Haley suffers a LOT  I know she does ... sure, she looks happy and a bit feral hippy , sitting on the concrete busking with her guitar and her  surprisingly good voice .  But half her shoulder is missing , its a hollow with a mass of scars , ( train surfing accident )  and she has drug and alcohol problems , homelessness  , etc etc . In this case ,  I might sit on the ground with her , I might give her some money .  Once when I had no money myself I  Gave her half a sandwich I was eating . 

 

I worked in a hospital for 10 years ,   the same , it depends on the person .... maybe I held their head still and reassured them  while the doctor drilled a hole in their skull when we were trapped in a lift    ;

 

https://litfl.com/emergency-procedure-craniostomy/

 

Or maybe I  devoted some spare time to take Mr Carpenter  out into the solarium  and  listen to him   chat about his past  . . . just before he died  , virtually 'in my arms ' .    

 

Spoiler

See ;  ' Commitment '    

 

 

 

 

 

I have seen PLENTY of people create their own suffering . I have also seen people by the power of their mind and spirit  transcend suffering . 

 

I also see a whole lot of  privileged white western people   complaining about their 'existential  suffering ' .... OH I am having trouble getting by ... the price rises ... the stress  !    Then they get in their car and drive home to their house . 

 

Now, that different personal  type of suffering ,  of 'existential angst '   ... that type of 'general malaise ' most  seem to suffer in the modern mind  . You should by now know what 'spiritual  remedies '   I advocate  and what my 'path' teaches and shows on this .  I continually write about it !  Everything form the purpose of practicing Magick, the concept of the True Will /  Khvarenah , tied in with an holistically developed psyche  with the principles that generate eudamonia ( virtually the reverse of suffering )  , like having a tutelary  spirit  and a whole range of  other things  connected to it . 

 

And again, it should have been clear what I was talking about . 

 

Good LORD ! Do people actually realize what is going on in the world at the moment   ?  You know what I am talking about - even though I am not supposed to talk about it .   Do you really think those peoples suffering can be alleviated by them changing their attitude towards it ?

 

Just think for a moment ... you are running towards the food distribution point, though the ruins, hoping to get food for your starving children , but you get shot in the leg instead  .... if only you had a different attitude about things !  

 

I'd suggest anyone that thinks that needs to try it out for themselves and have success first ! 

 

I've told this story before and I'll repeat it ; 

 

I was involved in a discussion night with  Baha'i group , they had elderly visitors (and this was some time back )   that the group was hopeful that they might be interested . The couple asked about why do we need to suffer  and what can be done about it . There were all sorts of typically religious philosophical answers  that just seemed to frustrate this couple . I detected something deeper going on . o I asked them if why thought they had suffered badly  , really badly and if that was what was behind their question and seeming dissatisfaction at the 'standard  answers '  ( which includes the ones offered here too ) .  They became solemn  , she looked at him and he nodded and she pulled up her long sleeve and showed us the concentration camps number tattooed on her inner wrist . 

 

Well, that shut them up  ... and gave them a chance to think about things a bit more 'deeply' . 

 

 

[Nungali]

39 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

....  Discuss the ideas and views and behaviors.  NOT individual people on the forum.

 

 

 

 

Ohhh a self appointed moderator now ?  

 

Don't tell people on the forum they are smart enough to understand 

 

  

 

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Not the same.

 

Sure it is  ! 

 

  ... in the context of what was quoted .

[stirling]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Sure it is  ! 

 

  ... in the context of what was quoted .

 

Your examples might feel similar to you - they have nothing to do with what I am talking about.

[BigSkyDiamond]

31 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Do you really think those peoples suffering can be alleviated by them changing their attitude towards it

 if only you had a different attitude about things !  

I'd suggest anyone that thinks that needs to try it out for themselves and have success first ! 

 

 

people are sharing what works for them in their own personal experience.

It can be a great source of inspiration and comfort and hope and healing to hear other people's stories.

For many many people it is very uplifting.  (It certainly was for me when i was told i had less than 6 months to live in 1999.)

 

that is very much NOT telling people "here do this, here try that."  

 

Edited 22 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond