Verse 42, Tao Te Ching

[BigSkyDiamond]

This came up in another thread and was going off topic.  So I am pursuing it further in this new thread.  The first part of Verse 42 in the Tao Te Ching has always been one of my favorites.  And over the years (OK, decades) i continue to try and decipher understand make sense of what the One and the Two and the Three and the Ten Thousand things are.

 

Please chime in on  any of these questions, based on your own understanding and frame of reference:

 

• What is the difference between the Tao and the One 
• What do they represent
• What does the Two represent
• What does the Three represent
• what does the Ten Thousand things represent.
• For the Tao (top of the chain) what for you are its characteristics
      [for instance unborn, unformed, unchanging, always was, always will be, no beginning, no end]

 

Any translation is fine, I'm not attached to any particular translation.  For reference here is a sample translation verse 42.

 

The Tao gives birth to the One.

The One gives birth to the Two. 

The Two give birth to the Three. 

The Three give birth to the ten thousand things.

 

     --- from verse 42, Tao Te Ching

 

( I will go ahead and post Cobie's response from the other thread, thank you Cobie)

[BigSkyDiamond]

pasting here two of Cobie's posts from other thread.  Thank you Cobie.

 

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Dao.  Dao is ‘the One’, “the single Entity at the top“.

 

"the One" was not given birth to; it's the 'unborn', the 'prime mover'. 

 

This translates  生 as "gives birth to". But 生 had many different meanings. In this context it means ‘to be’.  The first line of your ch. 42 quote in characters is 道 生 一   (dao4 sheng1 yi1)

 

一 (yi1)

in this context refers to  太 一 (tai4 yi1) the ‘One’, the ‘Oneness’. Beginning with the DDJ, in early Daoism 

‘Oneness’ is significanct in terms of cosmogony. ‘Oneness’ often appears as a synonym of Dao.

 

道  (dao4) 

in this context refers to   一  (yi1). Dao is the origin of everything, which is also called  一  (yi1)

 

道 生 一   (dao4 sheng1 yi1)  Dao is the the origin of all things. 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

35 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

There is no difference. Dao = the One.  They’re just different names for the same thing. Like in Christianity there’s loads of other names for God e.g. the good Lord, the Creator, the Almighty.

 

 

Again, Dao = the One. There’s no difference.

 

Laozi often likes to play with the fact that Clasical Chines was polysemic. So here 生 is used in different meanings in every line:

 

1. 道 生 一     (yi1 dao4 sheng1)  Dao is the One (the origin of all things).

2. 一 生 二     (er4)                          the One (Dao) created the two (meaning sky and earth)

3. 二 生 三     (san1)                       the two (sky and earth) produced  a few (三 ‘three’ also means ‘a few’)

4. 三 生 萬 物                                  the few gave birth to all the people that exist now.

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:55 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

This came up in another thread and was going off topic.  So I am pursuing it further in this new thread.  The first part of Verse 42 in the Tao Te Ching has always been one of my favorites.  And over the years (OK, decades) i continue to try and decipher understand make sense of what the One and the Two and the Three and the Ten Thousand things are.

 

Please chime in on  any of these questions, based on your own understanding and frame of reference:

 

Bearing the bolded part in mind  .... 

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• What is the difference between the Tao and the One 

 

The Tao is that unknown and unfathomable  'impetus' that causes the one to manifest out of the none .  The one is that manifestation that holds both the yin and yang polarity signatures . 

 

Its all fine to boil it down to a formula like   yin and yang equal Tao    ;   n⁺ + n^- = 0 , but what causes the original   'division '  of the 'one'  (  n⁺ + n^-  ) ?  What causes  'universal non-existence' to form 'singulairity' before the 'big bang ' ( generation of 10,000 things ) in physics . 

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• What do they represent

 

Basic universal forces in fundamental physics and nature .

 

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• What does the Two represent

 

the same .... 

 

https://home.web.cern.ch/science/physics/supersymmetry#:~:text=Supersymmetry predicts that each of,differences in their collective properties.

 

https://home.web.cern.ch/science/physics/supersymmetry#:~:text=Supersymmetry predicts that each of,differences in their collective properties.

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• What does the Three represent

 

The 'ideal' principle of the two , coming into the manifested 'real' .  This has an adjunct to the  4 , or 4 is a'pendant' to the  3 ; 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• what does the Ten Thousand things represent.

 

 

  ........   

 

   

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• For the Tao (top of the chain) what for you are its characteristics
      [for instance unborn, unformed, unchanging, always was, always will be, no beginning, no end]

 

What you listed .... and more  ... or 'unmore'    

 

 

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Any translation is fine, I'm not attached to any particular translation.  For reference here is a sample translation verse 42.

 

The Tao gives birth to the One.

The One gives birth to the Two. 

The Two give birth to the Three. 

The Three give birth to the ten thousand things.

 

     --- from verse 42, Tao Te Ching

 

( I will go ahead and post Cobie's response from the other thread, thank you Cobie)

 

For me , its a fav chapter . 

[Nungali]

Also with the representation of the three , one might look at the three Gunas , the idea that everything is a something , with two extremities  and 'the thing itself   ( eg positive and negative and electricity  or man and  woman and human  , or a line with two ends going off in either direction and the line itself  eg   'Light '  or the EMS ;

 

 

 

or the fact that we live in three dimensions , or the 'cube of space '  ; physically or psychologically ;

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

here we go ;-)

 

“There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not.”

― Zhuangzi

 

[Cobie]

 

15 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

... I have always read or understood "the ten thousand things" as the universe and everything in it. ...

 

Classical Chinese was polysemic. The characters used are 萬 物 (wan4 wu4)

萬 means ‘ten thousand’; it also means ‘all’

物 means ‘things’; it also means ‘wight’ (a person of a specific kind)

 

Quote

... And that there are intermediate steps in the sequence between The Tao and then eventually the worlds of form  (the universe and everything in it) ...

 

The 'two' (sky and earth) are the “intermediate step”.  The idea of assistance from sky and earth is also found in the  

太 一 生 水 (tai4 yi1 sheng1 shui3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui

 

Quote

... what is your sense of the top of the heap Tao, its characteristics.   My understanding is unborn, unformed, unchanging, always was, always will be, no beginning, no end. ...

I agree.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:55 AM by Cobie

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

This came up in another thread and was going off topic.  So I am pursuing it further in this new thread.  The first part of Verse 42 in the Tao Te Ching has always been one of my favorites.  And over the years (OK, decades) i continue to try and decipher understand make sense of what the One and the Two and the Three and the Ten Thousand things are.

 

Please chime in on  any of these questions, based on your own understanding and frame of reference:

 

• What is the difference between the Tao and the One 
• What do they represent
• What does the Two represent
• What does the Three represent
• what does the Ten Thousand things represent.
• For the Tao (top of the chain) what for you are its characteristics
      [for instance unborn, unformed, unchanging, always was, always will be, no beginning, no end]

 

Any translation is fine, I'm not attached to any particular translation.  For reference here is a sample translation verse 42.

 

The Tao gives birth to the One.

The One gives birth to the Two. 

The Two give birth to the Three. 

The Three give birth to the ten thousand things.

 

     --- from verse 42, Tao Te Ching

 

( I will go ahead and post Cobie's response from the other thread, thank you Cobie)

 

I appreciate you spinning this off and also feel very grateful for Cobie's valuable insights.

 

My approach to the Daodejing, and just about any other spiritual/philosophical scripture, is to treat them as personal instructions, maps or blueprints, to help guide and provide context for my own inner discovery. I don't get much out of considering them as explications of ontology. I think the Daodejing itself makes this very clear in the first chapter where the Dao is described as ineffable. 

 

What is the difference between the Dao and the One? In my opinion and experience, and as Cobie's translation suggests, they are one and the same, analogous to what Bön and Buddhist scripture refers to as the base of all which is not different from the nature of my own mind. While studying and practicing Daoist meditation about 20 years ago, I had a life and consciousness altering non-dual experience that heavily influenced my perspective and understanding of this. Again, this is valid for me and I'm not suggesting others need to adopt this perspective or allow it to influence your own personal investigation and conclusions. 

 

What is the One giving birth to Two? This for me is the arising of duality, subject/object and yin/yang differentiation. This is the arising of my mind as distinct from its objects, the nature of samsara in Bön and Buddhist parlance. This serves as the basis for comparison, for judgement, for awareness and interaction with each other and our environment, and thus the unlimited potential for manifestation, good and bad. 

 

Two giving birth to Three for me is a description of the inseparable nature of ying and yang, the eternal interplay of contrasting aspects of the duality of being. We can describe yin and we can describe yang, but what really counts is their interconnectedness, the ever changing dance of wholeness the two aspects describe. This is beautifully encapsulated by the taiji diagram and this serves as the basis for descriptions of all things being inherently perfect, something we've discussed quite a bit in another thread. Perfect referring to the completeness achieved by the balance of yin and yang as opposed to perfection in the sense of being exactly as I'd like things to be. 

 

Finally, this endless interplay of contrasting elements, of subject and object, yin and yang, of awareness and emptiness/openness (again making a personal connection to Bön teachings) allows for the arising of all possible experiences of life, the 10,000 things. In the Bön and Buddhist teachings the empty nature of things (wuji) is absolutely necessary to allow for the potential for anything to manifest. 

 

One caveat I'd like to share relates to the atemporal nature of this description. I don't believe there is any implication of conditional or sequential stages or phases. This description is independent of time and space. Each of these descriptions is always present, in each and every moment. We have limitations as beings in time and space in how we can conceptualize and communicate but the "process," the Way, does not.

 

Anyhow, just some personal reflections on this wonderful chapter.

 

 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

A long time ago,  I used to make paintings to illustrate what I then thought was my understanding (perhaps delusionaly so) of this chapter.  Here is an example. 

 

 

I made few hundred of these.  It is hard to explain the point of it and maybe there was none, but if you look closely the badly photographed composition, it is made up of shapes organized in sets of 2s and 3s, composing increasingly larger prime numbers arranged as a harmonic whole.  for example, 2+3= 5;  2+2+3 = 7,  5+3 +3=11;  7+3+3=13; 5+5+7=17; 11+13+17 = 41, etc.  The artistic theory I was trying to prove was that all form has its basis in prime numbers, based on a fugue composed of twos and threes under this principle:

   The Tao gives birth to the One.

   The One gives birth to the Two. 

   The Two give birth to the Three. 

 At that time in my life, I think I was drinking a lot of french brandy, which don't really do any more and which may better explain the genesis of this. 

[Giles]

French brandy is the Best! 😊

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:23 PM by Giles

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

A long time ago,  I used to make paintings to illustrate what I then thought was my understanding (perhaps delusionaly so) of this chapter.  Here is an example. 

 

 

 

I find that the painting is beautiful.

i would put it on my wall.  if it was in a shop or on a postcard i would purchase it.

 

Edited Thursday at 08:42 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[old3bob]

 

In Hindu terms I'd say all Prana which makes all things possible is  not the Self but is connected to and manifested from the Self... 

[BigSkyDiamond]

16 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

In Hindu terms I'd say all Prana which makes all things possible is  not the Self but is connected to and manifested from the Self... 

 

so then for those terms in post quoted which is at the top of the heap?  I am not familiar with how those two terms are being used, Prana and Self

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

so then for those terms in post quoted which is at the top of the heap?  I am not familiar with how those two terms are being used, Prana and Self

 

Self is transcendent or can't really be nailed down but Prana/all energy is manifest as in "springing forth"

[BigSkyDiamond]

8 hours ago, doc benway said:

What is the One giving birth to Two? This for me is the arising of duality, subject/object and yin/yang differentiation. This is the arising of my mind as distinct from its objects, the nature of samsara in Bön and Buddhist parlance. This serves as the basis for comparison, for judgement, for awareness and interaction with each other and our environment, and thus the unlimited potential for manifestation, good and bad. 

 

 

Thank you for the full post with many insights.  Much appreciated.

 

The One giving birth to Two

yes for me that is "non-duality" which steps down to "duality" or "polarity" the "world of opposites."  that is how i understand it.  it is easiest for me to understand duality in terms of watching my thought process.  when i can see that all people are the same in our humanity it is non-duality.  when i start making judgments good-bad, right-wrong superior-inferior, it is polarity thinking.  "us and them"

 

8 hours ago, doc benway said:

One caveat I'd like to share relates to the atemporal nature of this description. I don't believe there is any implication of conditional or sequential stages or phases. This description is independent of time and space. Each of these descriptions is always present, in each and every moment. We have limitations as beings in time and space in how we can conceptualize and communicate but the "process," the Way, does not.

 

 

yes that is very valid.  Time (and space and form) does not exist nor is it applicable at all stages described.  I have always seen this sequence as going from finest to densest.  So it is a progression or stepping down, like vibration is stepped down and has differing results. Or moving back up the chain from densest to finest.  I see it as a practical map of how physical matter (densest, the ten thousand things, the universe and everything in it) comes into being which can be traced all the way back up to the finest, the source (Tao)

 

but i agree it is not dependent on time and space at every level.  My understanding is that time and space and form only exist at the  very densest level (ten thousand things). As a physical human in a physical universe, time and space and form are characteristics but at all the other levels / stages they are non-existent and not relevant.  The physical human body i currerntly inhabit is finite and has a beginning and end, and is subject to time it belongs to the ten thousand things. But the part of me that is infinite belongs to and has the characteristics of the Tao: unborn unformed unchanging no beginning no end always was always will be.  The body comes and goes.  The infinite part of me does not. always was and always will be.

 

thank you for the illuminating insights docB

Edited Thursday at 10:39 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Self is transcendent or can't really be nailed down but Prana/all energy is manifest as in "springing forth"

 

OK got it.  so then Prana flows or emerges from Self, and Self is top of the chain?

Edited Thursday at 10:36 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

Ron Hogan ‘translation’ of the start of Ch. 42 

 

Chapter 42 starts out 
with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo
about Tao making one, 
one making two,
two making three, 
and three making everything else.

I don't know what it means,
and, frankly,
I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

On 11/06/2025 at 10:50 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

… What do they represent …

 

Imo ch 42 is a collection of unrelated bits of text that were removed from other chapters.

In Classical Chinese the context decides the meaning. Without context, nothing can be said about the meaning.

Imo the big question really is, from which chapter was part 1 removed?

 

The whole ch 42 (Henricks):

1. The Way gave birth to the One.
2. The One gave birth to the Two. 
3. The Two gave birth to the Three. 
4. And the Three gave birth to the ten thousand things. 

 

5. The ten thousand things carry Yin on their backs and wrap their arms around Yang. 
6. Through the blending of the qi they arrive at a state of harmony. 

 

7. The things that are hated by the whole world 
8. Are to be orphaned, widowed, and have no grain. 
9. Yet kings and dukes take these as their names. 

 

10. Thus with all things—some are increased by taking away; 
11. While some are diminished by adding on. 

 

12. Therefore, what other men teach, 
13. will also consider and then teach to others. 

 

14. Thus, "The strong and violent do not come to a natural end." 
15. I will take this as the father of my studies.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:28 PM by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

17 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Ron Hogan ‘translation’ of the start of Ch. 42 

 

Chapter 42 starts out 
with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo
about Tao making one, 
one making two,
two making three, 
and three making everything else.

I don't know what it means,
and, frankly,
I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

for those who may be wondering (I was so i looked it up) he has done the entire book.  I was curious how he presented other passages. it is here

[BigSkyDiamond]

i am always on the lookout for easy ways to compare a lot of different  translations.  These are the two sites I have been using.

If anyone has any other "compare text" for the Tao Te Ching please let us know.  Thank you.

 

 

compare verses (Garofalo)

https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclzindex.htm

 

Terebess

https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclzindex.htm

[BigSkyDiamond]

27 minutes ago, Cobie said:

ch 42 is a collection of unrelated bits of text that were removed from other chapters.

Imo the big question really is, from which chapter was part 1 removed?

In Classical Chinese the context decides the meaning. Currently we have no context, so cannot say anything about the meaning

 

 

It always felt to me like it was two separate sections put together, the first four lines felt so different from the rest of verse 42.  At times i wondered why the first four lines were not at the start of the Tao Te Ching.

[BigSkyDiamond]

30 minutes ago, Cobie said:

ch 42 is a collection of unrelated bits of text that were removed from other chapters.

Imo the big question really is, from which chapter was part 1 removed?

In Classical Chinese the context decides the meaning. Currently we have no context, so cannot say anything about the meaning.

 

 

you can have your own ideas though, what it means to you, how you interpret it or understand it, what your own view is, what it brings to mind for you.  That is what this thread topic is for.

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

It always felt to me like it was two separate sections put together, the first four lines felt so different from the rest of verse 42.  …

 

Yes, I agree.

 

1 minute ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

At times i wondered why the first four lines were not at the start of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I think it belongs in Chapter 4. 
 

 

 

[Cobie]

3 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… That is what this thread topic is for.

Oh. I had not understood that. Then I’m out. That doesn’t interest me in the least. I am only interested in a ‘formal equivalence’ translation of the characters of the oldest script. Be well. 

Edited Thursday at 11:38 PM by Cobie