I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

[Apech]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

thank you for the additional insights, very interesting. 

it touches also on something else which i give thought to often, and that is the parameters of and relationship between "meditation" and the "rest of" my daily life.   

 

i keep a log of time spent daily, how many hours or minutes, on "walking in nature" and "qi gong."   There is no separate category for meditation.  The time i spend daily sitting in meditation is recorded in the qi gong category, because qigong teacher said that "quiet sitting" is not only part of qi gong, but that it is the most important part.  

 

My view (and goal and intent) is that what I develop and cutlivate in "formal" sitting meditation (the deep breathing, the pure awareness, the silence stillness spacious) all carry over and spill over into my daily life.  That they become and are the foundation of how i go through my day no matter what the situation or circumstance.  So, not limited to or compartmentalized to the hour sitting on the floor.  

 

Thanks again for the thoughtful input on the various elements.

I agree that sitting or standing quietly is the secret to qi sensitivity (and accumulation) .

 

Meditation is not separate from everything else in fact I would say that everything else gets (eventually) subsumed into it.  The distinction I would like to make is about the intent and purpose which is becoming aware of reality. As the Buddha said it’s about seeing things as they really are.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

31 minutes ago, Apech said:

Zouwang …

坐 忘 (zuo4 wang4) sit and empty the mind; Daoist meditation (it’s apophatic meditation)

 

Edited Saturday at 07:52 PM by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I suspect that Buddhist forms of meditation, as well as more modern split-offs like mindfulness, are vastly different from some traditional forms of Taoist meditation.  It´s possible that the Buddhist forms are indeed useful for shifting emotional states; the Taoist forms less so.

 

bold above has me curioius.

in layman's terms what is an example of a Taoist meditation?

is this maybe talking about neigong "inner alchemy" for specific purposes?

 

compared to say in layman's terms this:  deep breathing, rest in awareness, observe, allow, stillness, silent, spacious

 

(i guess i am most familiar with what is termed above as"Buddhist forms" as it has been pointed out to me that what i am doing most  closely resembles Dzogchen)

Edited Saturday at 07:55 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

25 minutes ago, Apech said:

… qi sensitivity (and accumulation) .

imo: never ever “accumulate” qi, that’s an obstruction; no hoarding. Just a total free flowing, awareness is flow.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 07:52 PM by Cobie

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

regarding bold above i absolutely DO sit down and do deep breathing for all of these:

calming down when i am upset, yes

settling my feelings or thoughts when they are in disarray, yes

when i am physically unwell, yes

 

 

I am talking about meditation.  Specifically, taoist meditation of a taoist initiated into a taoist school and following its meditation principles and techniques. 

 

Whereas you are talking about a generic relaxation routine, which is as much part of meditation as, say, putting down your cell phone and your bag of chips.  I.e. it is one thing you might want to do (not the only one by far) as a preliminary entrance to meditation -- you relax.   Fine.  Good for you.  If it works, it may take you to a place whence you can meditate.  I use all sorts of relaxation routines, meditation is not one of them.  I don't meditate to relax.  I meditate to do neigong work that is preliminary to neijia work.  OK? 

 

Deep breathing in and of itself may or may not be part of meditation.  Sometimes breath is worked with in far more intricate ways, sometimes it is forgotten and rendered imperceptible...  there's many ways to use it -- or not use it, for both relaxation and meditation.  Besides, many taoist routines that use breathing are about reverse breathing, and how deep it's going to be when you're engaging your pores or your heels or your bones is a moot point.  As deep as you're proficient, or as shallow as a particular "stopper" warns you to make it (we call them "gates" in taoist neijia anatomy,  and some are dangerous to attack forcefully, you chip away at them...  for years or decades.) 

 

So let's not approach someone who explains why they don't want to pilot a space ship in an out-of-balance emotional state by teaching them how to push a button when summoning an elevator.

[BigSkyDiamond]

46 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I am talking about meditation.  Specifically, taoist meditation of a taoist initiated into a taoist school and following its meditation principles and techniques. 

 

Whereas you are talking about a generic relaxation routine, which is as much part of meditation as, say, putting down your cell phone and your bag of chips.  I.e. it is one thing you might want to do (not the only one by far) as a preliminary entrance to meditation -- you relax.   Fine.  Good for you.  If it works, it may take you to a place whence you can meditate.  I use all sorts of relaxation routines, meditation is not one of them.  I don't meditate to relax.  I meditate to do neigong work that is preliminary to neijia work.  OK? 

 

Deep breathing in and of itself may or may not be part of meditation.  Sometimes breath is worked with in far more intricate ways, sometimes it is forgotten and rendered imperceptible...  there's many ways to use it -- or not use it, for both relaxation and meditation.  Besides, many taoist routines that use breathing are about reverse breathing, and how deep it's going to be when you're engaging your pores or your heels or your bones is a moot point.  As deep as you're proficient, or as shallow as a particular "stopper" warns you to make it (we call them "gates" in taoist neijia anatomy,  and some are dangerous to attack forcefully, you chip away at them...  for years or decades.) 

 

So let's not approach someone who explains why they don't want to pilot a space ship in an out-of-balance emotional state by teaching them how to push a button when summoning an elevator.

 

don't put words in my mouth

and don't tell me what i am and am not doing

 

and with regards to an out of balance emotional state,  the hostility and vitriol in post above are duly noted.

 

Edited Saturday at 08:41 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

bold above has me curioius.

in layman's terms what is an example of a Taoist meditation?

 

compared to say in layman's terms this:  deep breathing, rest in awareness, observe, allow, stillness, silent, spacious

 

(i guess i am most familiar with what is termed above as"Buddhist forms" as it has been pointed out to me that what i am doing most  closely resembles Dzogchen)

 

I learned meditation from Master Chia´s outfit, what used to be called The Healing Dao.  His meditations are a lot more active than the usual Buddhist types.  The meditator is doing things inside the body -- moving energy, gathering elemental forces, setting up a cauldron, etc.  There´s space for yin sitting as well, but also a more yang, active phase.  (Not everybody likes Chia, so I´m not recommending his work so much as explaining what I´ve learned.)

[BigSkyDiamond]

13 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I learned meditation from Master Chia´s outfit, what used to be called The Healing Dao.  His meditations are a lot more active than the usual Buddhist types.  The meditator is doing things inside the body -- moving energy, gathering elemental forces, setting up a cauldron, etc.  There´s space for yin sitting as well, but also a more yang, active phase.  (Not everybody likes Chia, so I´m not recommending his work so much as explaining what I´ve learned.)

 

Thank you for courteous and helpful response.  So then neigong and "inner alchemy" type of work it sounds like.

Yes, quite different from the Dzogchen and Zen practices which i use.

 

Edited Saturday at 08:16 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Taomeow]

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

don't put words in my mouth

and don't tell me what i am and am not doing

 

and with regards to an out of balance emotional state,  the hostility and vitriol in post above are duly noted.

 

 

I don't like the way you communicate here, is all.  It doesn't involve hostility and vitriol, it's more like, oh gawd, he's engaging with what I write again, in his interesting way...   Please... not again. 

Why don't you stay out of my hair, I already asked you in another thread, didn't I?  Take your prolific wisdom somewhere where my posts aren't and we'll be mighty fine.  I am not going to engage you -- just don't bite first.      

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

坐 忘 (zuo4 wang4) sit and empty the mind; Daoist meditation (it’s apophatic meditation)

 

also known as e.g. 

靜 坐 (jing4 zuo4) silent sitting.

守 一 (shou3 yi1) uniting with the Dao.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 09:37 PM by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

also known as e.g. 

靜 坐 (jing4 zuo4) silent sitting

守 一 (shou3 yi1) uniting with the Dao

 

Yes.  Thank you for this.

That's part of what was confusing me.  Because I draw heavily from the Dao in my own meditation practice.

And I rely heavily on the Tao Te Ching in daily life.

 

 

So for me i would say i align with the Tao Te Ching, but not necessarily with the religion of Taoism, or the practices of Taoism, or neigong practices, or martial arts.  I practice qi gong, but only those types that are NOT martial in nature.   This helps me clarify my own practice and integration into my daily life so it is in alignment with my values, ethics, and beliefs.

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:55 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

9 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… I rely heavily on the Tao Te Ching in daily life. … but not necessarily with the religion of Taoism …

 

Me too.  Taoism is a living religion. It has developed over the millenia.  It integrated many aspects from other religions during that time.  My interest is only in the DDJ as in the Guodian/Mawangdui.  

 

 

Edited Saturday at 09:06 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

 

44 minutes ago, Cobie said:

[Daoist meditiation] also known as e.g. 

There’s also this one:  心 齋 (xin1 zhai1) from the heart  for religious reasons to clear the mind

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

also known as e.g. 

靜 坐 (jing4 zuo4) silent sitting.

守 一 (shou3 yi1) uniting with the Dao.

 

 

 

Sitting and forgetting ... it is usually translated.

[Apech]

Moderator Note:

 

Could people be nice?  Let's not bicker but perhaps just ask intelligent questions.

[Cobie]

 

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

Sitting and forgetting ... it is usually translated.

Yes I am aware of that. As I said earlier:

 

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Taoism is a living religion. It has developed over the millenia.  It integrated many aspects from other religions during that time.  My interest is only in the DDJ as in the Guodian/Mawangdui.  

I translate the characters in the meanings that Laozi used them in the Guodian/Mawangdui DDJ.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:05 PM by Cobie

[Apech]

OK my takeaway from this thread so far is that many of us do various practices which we have learned either from a lineage or a teacher or otherwise picked up from somewhere.  We derive benefit from them in certain ways and this is probably based on what has worked for us in the past and so on.  What is in dispute is the limits of the term 'meditation' - and people are usiing it differently (inclusively or exclusively).  If we are to learn from each other then we need to understand the perspective of the other people on here - even if we are not particularly sympathetic to what they are saying.  It's ok, even good to disagree.  In fact if we didn't take a strong position on this it would seem that it is unimportant to us.

 

For me, meditation specifically refers to a process leading to realisation and not to the various energy exercises and so on which I have an ability in.  So many of the things that people have called meditation on here I would not accept as being as such even if they may be effective in some way.  That's where I am up to so far.  I look forward to the rest of the conversation.

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

  I look forward to the rest of the conversation.

 

 

OK, here goes.

 

My best friend has recently retired after a long and extremely busy career as a psychiatrist in a large New York hospital and various teaching positions in the city's colleges.  While her training is 100% mainstream, a rather bad case of chronic back pain (which a surgery made worse) finally got her to look "somewhere else" for relief.  I managed to get her interested in qigong, and she discovered that it's doing wonders for her problem.  She practices every day now.  But meditation -- no use to even mention it to her.  That's because she saw the dark side of it among some of her patients.  People would be meditating (or rather doing what they defined as meditation though I don't know what it was they were actually doing) for many years and then one day exit from their meditation straight into acute psychosis.  She had several such cases over the years.  

 

So, earlier I mentioned "gates" that should not be broken forcefully or carelessly.  They are (in our tradition) pathways of qi circulation in the body (the word for  "gates," men 門 is familiar to many from the term "mingmen.")  Their function also extends to stages or thresholds in spiritual development.  And they are there for a reason.  I used another term earlier -- "stopper."  Gates that are closed are always closed for a reason.  Opening them with a lock pick or a crowbar -- if you don't have the actual key -- may mean nasty surprises awaiting on the other side.     

 

(For a rather interesting reference -- check out (e.g.) the 2017 study titled “The Varieties of Contemplative Experience: A Mixed-Methods Study of Meditation-Related Challenges in Western Buddhists” by Willoughby B. Britton and colleagues, published in PLOS (Public Library of Science), a peer-reviewed scientific journal.)  

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

(For a rather interesting reference -- check out (e.g.) the 2017 study titled “The Varieties of Contemplative Experience: A Mixed-Methods Study of Meditation-Related Challenges in Western Buddhists” by Willoughby B. Britton and colleagues, published in PLOS (Public Library of Science), a peer-reviewed scientific journal.)  

 

Willoughby Britton founded Cheetah House (Cheetah House | Help for Meditators In Distress) to help people who have been harmed by intensive meditation.  While meditation practice has no doubt helped many, it´s not without risks.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Willoughby Britton founded Cheetah House (Cheetah House | Help for Meditators In Distress) to help people who have been harmed by intensive meditation.  While meditation practice has no doubt helped many, it´s not without risks.

 

Thanks, I didn't know that.

 

Of course meditation is not the most dangerous thing a person can undertake, but it's not something as simple and straightforward as the West has come to believe.  In formal taoist training it is an advanced stage for a student, usually requiring a bunch of prerequisites, physical and mental priming. 

 

Personally I believe that not leaving one's breath alone may sometimes be a bad idea for a beginner...  and without proper guidance, for everybody.  Breath is different from other brain stem-mediated functions in that it has a second set of controls in the cerebral cortex, so it can be both involuntary and voluntary.  You can't "decide" in your mind on where to set your resting heart rate, blood pressure, body temperature, etc. if you are not trained accordingly for a long time and in the proper modality.  But with breath you can, the neocortex can interfere in that function because it "wants" or "believes" something...  In some cases this access, bypassing the autopilot, may backfire. 

 

The brain stem stores the earliest, and hence the worst, of the developmental traumatic patterns -- one could have been traumatized so early, e.g. at birth or in early infancy, that the cerebral cortex wasn't even there yet, so it couldn't possibly record the memory -- but the brain stem was, and did.  Triggering that pattern by taking voluntary control of breathing without conscious access to those patterns (aka systemically retrieving an unconscious memory and making it accessible to consciousness) may be potentially detrimental.  And I believe it explains things like "meditation psychosis" and "qigong sickness" etc. in all cases.

Edited Sunday at 04:03 AM by Taomeow

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 it's not something as simple and straightforward as the West has come to believe. 

 

There are forms of meditation which are simple and straightforward.  Meditation is not a monolith. Nor are beliefs about meditation in "the West" a monolith.

 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

  In formal taoist training it is an advanced stage for a student, usually requiring a bunch of prerequisites, physical and mental priming. 

 

yes for that specific tradition named, that is the case.

i find it it is helpful and educational for me to learn about these specifics with regards to a range of different paths on this forum.  this increases my understanding.   so thank you to all who are sharing insights and information from their own practices.

 

Edited Sunday at 05:14 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Apech]

9 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Willoughby Britton founded Cheetah House (Cheetah House | Help for Meditators In Distress) to help people who have been harmed by intensive meditation.  While meditation practice has no doubt helped many, it´s not without risks.

 

 

 

[Apech]

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

There are forms of meditation which are simple and straightforward.  Meditation is not a monolith. Nor are beliefs about meditation in "the West" a monolith.

 

 

I still don't quite get your focus on 'beliefs about meditation' - for me meditation is a praxis and I don't really have beliefs about it - just experience and results.

 

 

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

yes for that specific tradition named, that is the case.

i find it it is helpful and educational for me to learn about these specifics with regards to a range of different paths on this forum.  this increases my understanding.   so thank you to all who are sharing insights and information from their own practices.

 

 

I think the key to this and other subjects is intent.  Why are you doing it and what is the purpose.

 

Most (prob 90%) of meditation taught in the West is just beginner stuff - necessarily light and without much depth.  The teaching focusses on learning a technique of  some kind.  Usually people think that this is about chilling out and relaxing - getting a break from the pressures of daily life - or even the dreaded mindfulness.  I think all this should be replaced with normal healthy living.  If you have 'spiritual' ambitions like enlightenment and so on then this is a different issue.  Because it is quite likely to make you more disturbed and less relaxed - at least in the short term.  Meditation should never be taught as a therapy IMO.  It is too dangerous.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Most (prob 90%) of meditation taught in the West is just beginner stuff - necessarily light and without much depth.  The teaching focusses on learning a technique of  some kind.  Usually people think that this is about chilling out and relaxing - getting a break from the pressures of daily life - or even the dreaded mindfulness.  I think all this should be replaced with normal healthy living.  

 

 

My mom, like many health-conscious people, has tried to meditate.  She thinks of meditation as one of those things a person has to do to live a long healthy life, something akin to eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, etc.  But meditation never seems to go right for her.  She doesn´t enjoy it and can´t "quiet her mind."  Should I tell her that nobody can quiet their mind -- at least not for many months/years -- and that quieting her mind isn´t really the point?  If she actually wanted to meditate that´s what I would say but she doesn´t.  My mom wants to knit, to paint, to play scrabble, to go on walks with friends.  I think she´s doing just fine without meditation.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

My mom, like many health-conscious people, has tried to meditate.  She thinks of meditation as one of those things a person has to do to live a long healthy life, something akin to eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, etc.  But meditation never seems to go right for her.  She doesn´t enjoy it and can´t "quiet her mind."  Should I tell her that nobody can quiet their mind -- at least not for many months/years -- and that quieting her mind isn´t really the point?  If she actually wanted to meditate that´s what I would say but she doesn´t.  My mom wants to knit, to paint, to play scrabble, to go on walks with friends.  I think she´s doing just fine without meditation.

 

Yes I think I could write a 50 page essay on the idea that meditation is about quieting your mind.  Its one of the circular problems with meditation that the idea that you have when you start pre-conditions the experience.  It would be better to ask like a kind of koan 'why is my mind so noisy?' ... if one is going to bother going down that route at all.  At least that is an open enquiry and not a kind of demand or request for service.