Know thyself

[Mark Foote]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:59 PM, old3bob said:

 

Well Mark do you think or have come across it in Buddhist texts that the historic Buddha saw that there is only one of us in countless quadrillions of forms which are all relative? 
 

 

 

Seriously, though:

 

... a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [him or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything.

 

(MN III 42-45, Vol III pg 92-94)

 

I don't expect to get there (conscious experience of feeling and perceiving in the absence of volition).  As I wrote in my most recent post:
 

Shunryu Suzuki described the true practice of seated meditation as “just sitting”, meaning that “doing something” in the act of sitting has ceased.  I believe, as Gautama the Buddha said, that the cessation of “doing something” in speech, body, or mind is a contact of freedom.
 

... I practice more now, as I see that the cessation I experience in “just sitting”  helps to provide a sense of timing in my life, a sense of timing that seems related to a whole beyond what I can know.

 

(The Practice of Time)

 

"A whole beyond what I can know"--that's more of a "self" than Gautama acknowledged, I'll admit, but it's really not about a "thing" but about action.  As Dogen put it:
 

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

(Genjo Koan, tr Tanahashi)

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Seriously, though:

 

... a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [him or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything.

 

(MN III 42-45, Vol III pg 92-94)

 

I don't expect to get there (conscious experience of feeling and perceiving in the absence of volition).  As I wrote in my most recent post:
 

Shunryu Suzuki described the true practice of seated meditation as “just sitting”, meaning that “doing something” in the act of sitting has ceased.  I believe, as Gautama the Buddha said, that the cessation of “doing something” in speech, body, or mind is a contact of freedom.
 

... I practice more now, as I see that the cessation I experience in “just sitting”  helps to provide a sense of timing in my life, a sense of timing that seems related to a whole beyond what I can know.

 

(The Practice of Time)

 

"A whole beyond what I can know"--that's more of a "self" than Gautama acknowledged, I'll admit, but it's really not about a "thing" but about action.  As Dogen put it:
 

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

(Genjo Koan, tr Tanahashi)

 

 

it's late so just a partial reply for now, I'd say the quote is partly right,  "the good person does not imagine"  the good person knows beyond normal knowing without a shadow of doubt, otherwise it would all be the "vanity of Vanities" .  The historic Buddha knew that he went "beyond the beyond"  (beyond the 8th liberation) from the witness he gave, did he not (?) and knew and said in realization, "wonder of Wonders!

Edited March 3 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:21 PM, old3bob said:

 

it's late so just a partial reply for now, I'd say the quote is partly right,  "the good person does not imagine"  the good person knows beyond normal knowing without a shadow of doubt, otherwise it would all be the "vanity of Vanities" .  The historic Buddha knew that he went "beyond the beyond"  (beyond the 8th liberation) from the witness he gave, did he not (?) and knew and said in realization, "wonder of Wonders!
 

 

A nice translation:

 

“Wonder of wonders! All sentient beings inherently possess the wisdom and virtues of the tathagata. But because of delusion and attachment, they are unable to actualize these qualities.”

(translation from:  https://www.ctworld.org.tw/english-96/html/01_3Periods.html)

 

 

The source is not cited in the above link, but I see that on another site, the source is referred to as the "Garland Sutra".  I assume that's the Buddhāvataṃsaka Sūtra.  From Wikipedia:

 

The Buddhāvataṃsakasūtra was written in stages, beginning from at least 500 years after the death of the Buddha. One source claims that it is "a very long text composed of a number of originally independent scriptures of diverse provenance, all of which were combined, probably in Central Asia, in the late third or the fourth century CE." Japanese scholars such as Akira Hirakawa and Otake Susumu meanwhile argue that the Sanskrit original was compiled in India from sutras already in circulation which also bore the name "Buddhavatamsaka".

 

 

So, no, I don't believe Gautama the Shakyan ever said that, although it's a lovely sentiment.

Meanwhile, as far as being able "to actualize these qualities":

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… 

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

(Dogen, "Genjo Koan", tr Tanahashi)

 

 

 

[old3bob]

I don't think Buddhists are making that saying up .. 

[NaturaNaturans]

On 28.2.2024 at 9:34 PM, steve said:

As I continue to go deeper with this investigation, new choices and opportunities emerge and I am no longer as limited in how I engage with life. I begin to see through the sense of identity I previously accepted unconditionally and realize who I have thought I am is, in reality, not who I am.

Very interresting. How did you come to this realization?

 

Edit: for me, early hindu texts like the bhagavad gita and upanishads changed my perception of myself. I think they are brilliantly and clearly written. Few  other texts... no other text (I have read) acctually, has been able to do that so masterfully for me. They also happens to be the only hindu texts ive read, so I think I should read more

Edited March 12 by NaturaNaturans

[steve]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:46 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

Very interresting. How did you come to this realization?

 

Edit: for me, early hindu texts like the bhagavad gita and upanishads changed my perception of myself. I think they are brilliantly and clearly written. Few  other texts... no other text (I have read) acctually, has been able to do that so masterfully for me. They also happens to be the only hindu texts ive read, so I think I should read more

 

It was spontaneous and unexpected. It was also preceded and succeeded by lots of reading, energy practices, martial arts, meditation, self-investigation, even entheogens, … so many things going back to ‘my’ beginning that I can see connected to the web and can’t point to one thing or a particular group of things really. Ultimately it’s a perspective, nothing more or less.