Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…

[Zorro Dantes]

How is any of it legitimate by reasoning of a mind that didn’t/doesn’t believe, not Ismael nor Issac…got  butchered on that hill🧐…isn’t that one of the major differences between the warring Abrahamic sects? 

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, Zorro Dantes said:

How is any of it legitimate by reasoning of a mind that didn’t/doesn’t believe, not Ismael nor Issac…got  butchered on that hill🧐…isn’t that one of the major differences between the warring Abrahamic sects? 

 

Yup

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Zorro Dantes said:

How is any of it legitimate by reasoning of a mind that didn’t/doesn’t believe, not Ismael nor Issac…got  butchered on that hill🧐…isn’t that one of the major differences between the warring Abrahamic sects? 

 

If one reads both the Torah and the Quran, there is virtually no difference between Islam and Judaism.  That's one of the key points in the Quran.  Muhammad is preaching:  "Listen, cousins, this book is teaching all of what is already been revealed."

 

The Quran, actually supports jewish people, and judaism.  It rebukes those jewish people ( and all people for that matter ) who break their covenants and contracts.  That's one its primary themes.  "Do not break your covenant with Allah."  "Do not break peace treaties."  

 

And, quite honestly, the Quran is gentle in its rebuke towards jewish people who break their convenant compared to the prophets in Tanach.

 

So.  The question is:  how in the world did we end up in this place where Jewish people and Muslims seem to be always and forever at war with each other?  Well.... It's not because of the Torah.  It's not because of the Quran...

 

As a jewish person I can tell you that most jewish people are not at war witth islam.  The few muslims I know love jews and love judaism.  Although, these are friends, so, naturally, they're good people.

 

In order to deconstruct the hatred muslims have for jews it takes a long time and many words, and it has very little to do with ishmael in the bible.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

Genesis 17:20:

 

ולישמעאל שמעתיך הנה ברכתי אתו והפריתי אתו והרביתי אתו במאד מאד שנים־עשר נשיאם יוליד ונתתיו לגוי גדול׃

 

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he father, and I will make him a great nation.
 

[Nungali]

The answer to the question is simple and obvious  and well attested in history .  Its the same answer across the board really, for all types of situations .

 

We have times in history when healthy happy and advanced societies  containing Jews and Muslims  flourished .

 

And of course, that all changed  due to the uprising or fascist fundamentalists  who used religious variations  to cause disruption and gain power and repression over the masses .

 

But aside from what  Daniel said above :  " In order to deconstruct the hatred muslims have for jews it takes a long time and many words, " aside from that being 'one sided' (ie not mentioning the hatred some Jews have for Muslims ) , some historical events stand out ... there where certain events  that the JEWS did right at the beginning ;

 

" The Constitution of Medina, written shortly after hijra, addressed some points regarding the civil and religious situation for the Jewish communities living within the city from an Islamic perspective. For example, the constitution stated that the Jews "will profess their religion, and the Muslims theirs", and they "shall be responsible for their expenditure, and the Muslims for theirs". After the Battle of Badr, the Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa breached treaties and agreements with Muhammad. Muhammad regarded this as casus belli and besieged the Banu Qaynuqa. Upon surrender the tribe was expelled.^[6] The following year saw the expulsion of the second tribe, the Banu Nadir, accused of planning to kill the prophet Muhammad. The third major Jewish tribe in Medina, Banu Qurayza was eliminated after betraying the Muslims during the Battle of the Trench. However, there were many Jewish communities in Medina who continued to live in Medina peacefully after these events such as Banu Awf, Banu Harith, Banu Jusham Banu Alfageer, Banu Najjar, Banu Sa'ida, and Banu Shutayba.

 

but then

 

" In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 CE, Muhammad's successor the Caliph Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the uttering of the Prophet: "Let there not be two religions in Arabia". The two populations in question were the Jews of the Khaybar oasis in the north and the Christians of Najran.^[5][9] Only the Red Sea port of Jeddah was permitted as a "religious quarantine area" and continued to have a small complement of Jewish merchants

 

" During the Middle Ages, Jewish people under Muslim rule experienced tolerance and integration.^[10]: 55 Some historians refer to this time period as the "Golden Age" for the Jews, as more opportunities became available to them.^[10] In the context of day-to-day life, Abdel Fattah Ashour, a professor of medieval history at Cairo University, states that Jewish people found solace under Islamic rule during the Middle Ages.^[10]: 56 The Muslim rule at times didn't fully enforce the Pact of Umar and the traditional Dhimmi status of Jews; i.e., the Jews sometimes, as in eleventh-century Granada, were not second-class citizens. Author Merlin Swartz referred to this time period as a new era for the Jews, stating that the attitude of tolerance led to Jewish integration into Arab-Islamic society.^[10]: 56

Social integration allowed Jews to make great advances in new fields, including mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, chemistry and philology,^[11] with some even gaining political power under Islamic rule.

 

" Leon Poliakov writes that in the early ages of Islam, Jews enjoyed great privileges, and their communities prospered. No laws or social barriers restricted their commercial activities, and exclusive trade and craft guilds like those in Europe did not exist. Jews who moved to Muslim lands found themselves free to engage in any profession, resulting in less stigma than in Europe where such restrictions were still in force.^[10]: 58 This, coupled with more intense Christian persecution, encouraged many Jews to migrate to areas newly conquered by Muslims and establish communities there.

 

 

[Zorro Dantes]

Thanks for the clarifications…but I still question if grandpa didn’t kill some kid named Seth. It’s obvious that it wasn’t Issac or Ishmael… also kinda shitty that Ishmael and his mom had to be exiled for Abraham’s decision to take her on as a concubine…any elaboration on this business as to how it’s not shameful to have a concubine least you knock them up? Had Abraham refrained from doing so where would the world be🤔 I wonder

[Nungali]

I think thats back in the realm of 'historical mythology '  .    The whole Abraham story , and a whole lot of other stuff was a back story , borrowed from a variety of myths and stories from other cultures , including Babylon  and later  the Persian Empire (under the influence of Zoroastrianism )  and used as a 'history' to  justify a political movement that wanted to claim certain ' unities and expulsions'  amongst some tribes ... and a justification of righteousness  in 'land invasion' and slaughter  of the original occupants .

 

 The first part of that  ( before the .... )   I had explained to me  by a Rabbi , he had no problem saying it was a made up story to cement a mythical history .

 

A lot of stuff in there is 'kinda shitty'    ;   a bunch of guys knocks on your door in the middle of the night  and want to see your visitors ?  nah,  throw your daughters out to them for a drunken rape fest ... or your wife ... or maybe she was 'only' a  concubine   ?  out to them ... and find her dead on the doorstep in the morning ... then you order her to 'get up woman'  ... but she cant, because she is dead .

 

An inspiring book indeed ! 

 

 

[Daniel]

22 hours ago, Zorro Dantes said:

Thanks for the clarifications…but I still question if grandpa didn’t kill some kid named Seth.

 

Would you please elaborate on this?  Why do you think Seth was killed?

 

Gen 5:6

 

ויחי־שת חמש שנים ומאת שנה ויולד את־אנוש׃
And Seth lived a hundred and five years, and fathered Enosh;
 

Quote

It’s obvious that it wasn’t Issac or Ishmael…

 

Why do you say that?

 

Quote

also kinda shitty that Ishmael and his mom had to be exiled for Abraham’s decision to take her on as a concubine

 

The exile is complicated.  Do you read hebrew?  There's a great deal that is missing in the english.  The story of the exile begins here:

 

Gen 21:9

 

ותרא שרה את־בן־הגר המצרית אשר־ילדה לאברהם מצחק׃
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had born to Abraham, מצחק.

 

There's important linguistic word play here.  It's not apparent in the english.  The hebrew bible is often provocative.  It's intended to be a story read outloud, to those who speak the language.  This verse is the first ever usage of the word מצחק.  The audience had never heard it before this point.  What is מצחק?  They will wonder.  The story often provokes questions:  why is that?  what is that?  does that make sense?

 

If you read hebrew and you've been paying attention to the story, this is an important word because it is the source of Isaac's name.  In hebrew it is יצחק.  Do you see the similarity, but, the significant difference?  יצחק / מצחק.

 

Variations of יצחק have been repeated many times so far in the story... the first mention is when isaac ( yitzchak ) is first mentioned:

 

Gen  17:17

 

ויפל אברהם על־פניו ויצחק ויאמר בלבו הלבן מאה־שנה יולד ואם־שרה הבת־תשעים שנה תלד׃
Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born to him who is a hundred years old? and shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear?

 

Then later, in the next chapter, Sarah also laughs...

 

18:12
ותצחק שרה בקרבה לאמר אחרי בלתי היתה־לי עדנה ואדני זקן׃
Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am grown old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

18:13
ויאמר יהוה אל־אברהם למה זה צחקה שרה לאמר האף אמנם אלד ואני זקנתי׃
And the Lord said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?

18:14
היפלא מיהוה דבר למועד אשוב אליך כעת חיה ולשרה בן׃
Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return to you, at this season, and Sarah shall have a son.

18:15
ותכחש שרה לאמר לא צחקתי כי יראה ויאמר לא כי צחקת׃
Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, No; you did laugh.

So the audience knows this word.  It's being repeated.  In Gen 21, immediately prior to Issac's ( yitzchak's ) birth, the word is repeated multiple times... The word is "tzah'chak".  It sounds like laughter.  "TZAH-chak-chak-chak.  TZAH-chak-chak-chak."    Get it?  The audience knows what this is.

21:2
ותהר ותלד שרה לאברהם בן לזקניו למועד אשר־דבר אתו אלהים׃
For Sarah conceived, and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

21:3
ויקרא אברהם את־שם־בנו הנולד־לו אשר־ילדה־לו שרה יצחק׃
And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac ( literally yitzchak ).

21:4
וימל אברהם את־יצחק בנו בן־שמנת ימים כאשר צוה אתו אלהים׃
And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.

21:5
ואברהם בן־מאת שנה בהולד לו את יצחק בנו׃
And Abraham was a hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born to him.

21:6
ותאמר שרה צחק עשה לי אלהים כל־השמע יצחק־לי׃
And Sarah said, God has made me laugh, so that all who hear will laugh with me.

21:7
ותאמר מי מלל לאברהם היניקה בנים שרה כי־ילדתי בן לזקניו׃
And she said, Who would have said to Abraham, that Sarah should suckle children? For I have born him a son in his old age.

 

Then Isaac is weaned and something dramatic happened...

 

21:8

ויגדל הילד ויגמל ויעש אברהם משתה גדול ביום הגמל את־יצחק׃
And the child grew, and was weaned; and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
 

21:9

ותרא שרה את־בן־הגר המצרית אשר־ילדה לאברהם מצחק׃
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had born to Abraham, מצחק.

 

If you can read hebrew, it's clear something major happened.  The dichotomy is coming from the two ending words being similar yet significantly different.  Also the melody that accompanies the story telling puts great emphasis on the second verse and adds tension, letting the audience know something bad happened.  But they don't know what it is.  Any guesses what you think it might be?  It's not "mocking"... ( which is one of the preferred english translations )

 

Quote

…any elaboration on this business as to how it’s not shameful to have a concubine least you knock them up?

 

Certainly.  Polygamy is extremely important for the welfare of first wife if she cannot conceive, or if she consistently miscarries.  Lacking the possibility of concubinage the first wife would need to be abandoned or divorced through no fault of her own in order for the man to take a wife and continue his lineage.

 

However, if the man takes a concubine through the consent of the wife, the marriage can continue.  The first wife is not abandoned.

 

Quote

Had Abraham refrained from doing so where would the world be🤔 I wonder

 

According to the Torah, all of it is the will of God.  It's all according to a divine plan.  As it says in the Quran, Allah is the very best of planners.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Daniel

[Vajra Mind]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:56 PM, Daniel said:

 

If one reads both the Torah and the Quran, there is virtually no difference between Islam and Judaism.  That's one of the key points in the Quran.  Muhammad is preaching:  "Listen, cousins, this book is teaching all of what is already been revealed."

 

The Quran, actually supports jewish people, and judaism.  It rebukes those jewish people ( and all people for that matter ) who break their covenants and contracts.  That's one its primary themes.  "Do not break your covenant with Allah."  "Do not break peace treaties."  

 

And, quite honestly, the Quran is gentle in its rebuke towards jewish people who break their convenant compared to the prophets in Tanach.

 

So.  The question is:  how in the world did we end up in this place where Jewish people and Muslims seem to be always and forever at war with each other?  Well.... It's not because of the Torah.  It's not because of the Quran...

 

As a jewish person I can tell you that most jewish people are not at war witth islam.  The few muslims I know love jews and love judaism.  Although, these are friends, so, naturally, they're good people.

 

In order to deconstruct the hatred muslims have for jews it takes a long time and many words, and it has very little to do with ishmael in the bible.

 

 

I am sorry Daniel. I think your knowledge of Islam and Quran is weak. Islam and Quran propose the following:

 

Quran cursed Jews 9 times and promised them that their will come people (devoted muslims) who will eliminate Jews. 

Quran accused Jews of killing prophets. 

Quran accused Jews of calling Uzair son of God as Christians called Jesus is son of God. 

Jews are no longer the chosen people, they are replaced by Muslims. 

 

Before Islam, Arabian peninsula had Jews, Christians and pagans living in peace. Even Christians heretics who feared persecution found safe heaven in Arabia. 

After Islam no body was safe, there was continuous bloodshed for 1400 years until today. Islam is not a tolerant religion. I really fear that one day they will eliminate Buddhism and Dharma. 

 

I do not wish to elaborate further or add all the relevant verses from Quran because I do not want to create negative emotions.  

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Vajra Mind

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

 

I am sorry Daniel. I think your knowledge of Islam and Quran is weak. Islam and Quran propose the following:

 

Quran cursed Jews 9 times and promised them that their will come people (devoted muslims) who will eliminate Jews. 

Quran accused Jews of killing prophets. 

Quran accused Jews of calling Uzair son of God as Christians called Jesus is son of God. 

Jews are no longer the chosen people, they are replaced by Muslims. 

 

Before Islam, Arabian peninsula had Jews, Christians and pagans living in peace. Even Christians heretics who feared persecution found safe heaven in Arabia. 

After Islam no body was safe, there was continuous bloodshed for 1400 years until today. Islam is not a tolerant religion. I really fear that one day they will eliminate Buddhism and Dharma. 

 

I do not wish to elaborate further or add all the relevant verses from Quran because I do not want to create negative emotions.  

 

 

 

It's ok, there will be no negative emotions.  I will post the quotes from the Quran which confirms what I have written.  I'm traveling with my family right now on vacation.  

 

May I ask, have you read the Quran?  Or are you operating from someone's list of verses curated for a specific purpose?

 

It's vital to read the Quran and these verses in context and in order.  Many religious people object to critics citing individual verses not in context, but, for the Quran it is even more vital than any other Western religious text to read exactly what is written in context and in order.  This is because the book is written in order to persuade proud tribal warlords and their foot soldiers to put down their hostility. 

 

This is not and cannot be accomplished with:  "you're wrong, you've been wrong, you're family is wrong...".  Instead, the Quran is written with a cadence.  It, for lack of better words, rocks and rolls, back and forth, back and forth.  It's like trying to free a chariot from thick mud.

 

So, yes, there are verses which validate certain ideas which are clearly objectionable, but then the Quran corrects it.  In fact, what I've found in the Quran is that the violent verses, the prejudiced verses, are actually bracketed, surrounded by moderating verses.  What results is the reader agrees, and agrees, and while they are in a mindset of agreement, the Quran corrects and moderates.

 

Once I get to a quiet peaceful place, I'll quote the Quran in context and in order to demonstrate what I've written.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Daniel

[Vajra Mind]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It's ok, there will be no negative emotions.  I will post the quotes from the Quran which confirms what I have written.  I'm traveling with my family right now on vacation.  

 

May I ask, have you read the Quran?  Or are you operating from someone's list of verses curated for a specific purpose?

 

It's vital to read the Quran and these verses in context and in order.  Many religious people object to critics citing individual verses not in context, but, for the Quran it is even more vital than any other Western religious text to read exactly what is written in context and in order.  This is because the book is written in order to persuade proud tribal warlords and their foot soldiers to put down their hostility. 

 

This is not and cannot be accomplished with:  "you're wrong, you've been wrong, you're family is wrong...".  Instead, the Quran is written with a cadence.  It, for lack of better words, rocks and rolls, back and forth, back and forth.  It's like trying to free a chariot from thick mud.

 

So, yes, there are verses which validate certain ideas which are clearly objectionable, but then the Quran corrects it.  In fact, what I've found in the Quran is that the violent verses, the prejudiced verses, are actually bracketed, surrounded by moderating verses.  What results is the reader agrees, and agrees, and while they are in a mindset of agreement, the Quran corrects and moderates.

 

Once I get to a quiet peaceful place, I'll quote the Quran in context and in order to demonstrate what I've written.

 

 

Hi Daniel,

 

Fair questions. I am ex-muslim Arab. Arabic is my first language. I made many khatmas in my life (that is reading Quran cover to cover) and I have read early Tafsir books and Hadith of both Sunni and Shia sects because my father was Sunni and my mother was Shia so I am familiar with both major sects of Islam.

 

When I was a teen I was introduced to Sufism (Irfan in Shia) by a Persian guru with psychic powers/Siddhis who comes from a famous lineage in Iran. I loved my path but later I faced troubles with Islamic dogma when I started reading more Quran and tafsir and sirah from both Sunni and Shia sources. One of the issues was I couldn't tolerate the hate in Quran and Islamic traditions towards other religions and nations. It was a painful experience to leave Sufism (Irfan) since I had first hand experience of Siddhis which many people would only hear about in stories but not actually witness it. There are also reasons why some Sufists where executed and crucified during Islamic Khilafa related to the origin of Sufisim in Islam but that would be a different topic. 

 

I am in peace with my decision because I believe I made the right moral decision. I didn't run out of luck as destiny put me at different path with wonderful Guru and teachings including Kabbalah and Buddhism. 

 

By the way if your are using English translation of Quran rather than Arabic version, then I am afraid to tell you that I have seen some translation and they are dishonest. 

 

I look forward to see your quotes and responding to them accordingly. 

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Vajra Mind said:

By the way if your are using English translation of Quran rather than Arabic version, then I am afraid to tell you that I have seen some translation and they are dishonest. 

 

I look forward to see your quotes and responding to them accordingly. 

 

I tried reading an English translation and got turned off pretty quickly. 

[Nungali]

Regardless of what the 'Holy' Books say to their believers , still , history shows that regardless , at times , Muslim and Jew have been able to live closely together in relative harmony .

 

Let's not forget what , historically , Christians have often done to Jews  ... and what others who where not Muslim have done to Jews .

 

Hitler didnt need a Koran to do what he plotted  .

 

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/path-peace-muslims-and-jews

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

I couldn't tolerate the hate in Quran and Islamic traditions towards other religions and nations

 

Naturally.  I would not tolerate it either.  I think what you're describing as hate is in the traditions, hadith, and tafsir, but is not in the Quran.

 

18 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

By the way if your are using English translation of Quran rather than Arabic version, then I am afraid to tell you that I have seen some translation and they are dishonest. 

 

Agreed.  The ones which are dishonest that I have seen add english words to the text that are not in the original arabic.  I don't read arabic, but, I do try to check multiple translations using a website called "IslamAwakened" and also check each word one at a time via the "corpus-quran".

 

One of the reasons I'm confident in my assessment is that I encountered an extremely motivated critic of the quran who supplied their own list of 90+ verses in the Quran which they asserted proved the Quran was full of hatred.  Yet everytime I researched it myself, checked the context and translations, it wasn't at all like what the individual was asserting.

 

Shwing this required bring the surrounding verses of in the Quran, but, I needed to double-triple check the translation of anything I brought.  I needed to bring only clean, non-biased translations, else, I would be making the same mistake the other individual was making in reverse.

 

18 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

I look forward to see your quotes and responding to them accordingly. 

 

Thank you very much for the opportunity to learn together.  Tomorrow is a travel day.  London ----> Portland, OR, USA.  I'll hopefully reply with content to discuss in the next 48 hours, at the latest.

 

Sincerely, 

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I tried reading an English translation and got turned off pretty quickly. 

 

It's not something I enjoy reading, but, I think it's required for anyone attempting to discuss Islam.  At this time in history, where muslims and jews are locked in conflict, I think it's urgent to confirm for both jews and muslims precisely what the Quran is teaching.

[NaturaNaturans]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Regardless of what the 'Holy' Books say to their believers

This, i belive, is essential to keep in mind.

[NaturaNaturans]

But do Christian themselves consider themselves «abrahami?» i know it is used in academica. But somehow i cant really imagine christians being bothered about the bloodlines and genealogi or religious laws.

 

Important to stress that i grew up in q secular, liberal and traditionally lutheran nation. I am aware that there a loads of churches, so i guews it depends… but for me, christianity has alllways been about the narrative of and trying to follow the teachings of the idealized perfect being, the Christ. We never learned about OT in church and school, it was all about the son of god, and the «sacrifice and ressuraction» symbology.

Edited December 23, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Daniel]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:11 PM, Vajra Mind said:

I think your knowledge of Islam and Quran is weak.

 

I've had a chance to sit down and review the Quran to be sure I was not remembering incorrectly.

 

On 12/15/2023 at 7:56 AM, Daniel said:

Muhammad is preaching:  "Listen, cousins, this book is teaching all of what is already been revealed."

 

Here is the quote I was referring to:  Quran 29:46-47.  I carefully checked the translation.  I think the word-for-word translation by Dr. Shenaz Shaik is very good and clean, but I welcome your correction if I am wrong.  

 

https://islamicvoice.com/womans-voice/personality-of-the-month-dr-shehnaz-shaikh/

 

وَلَا تُجَـٰدِلُوۤا۟ أَهۡلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ إِلَّا بِٱلَّتِی هِیَ أَحۡسَنُ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِینَ ظَلَمُوا۟ مِنۡهُمۡۖ وَقُولُوۤا۟ ءَامَنَّا بِٱلَّذِیۤ أُنزِلَ إِلَیۡنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَیۡكُمۡ وَإِلَـٰهُنَا وَإِلَـٰهُكُمۡ وَ ٰحِدࣱ وَنَحۡنُ لَهُۥ مُسۡلِمُونَ ۝٤٦

 

And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."

 

وَكَذَ ٰلِكَ أَنزَلۡنَاۤ إِلَیۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَۚ فَٱلَّذِینَ ءَاتَیۡنَـٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ یُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦۖ وَمِنۡ هَـٰۤؤُلَاۤءِ مَن یُؤۡمِنُ بِهِۦۚ وَمَا یَجۡحَدُ بِءَایَـٰتِنَاۤ إِلَّا ٱلۡكَـٰفِرُونَ ۝٤٧

 

And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.

 

The important details here are what I wrote previously:  The book revealed to the jewish people, the Torah, brings the same message, the same teachings as in the Quran.  That is why:  "None [of them, the people of the book] reject the verses of the Quran unless they are disbelievers.  They ( we, me ) have a revelation which matches one-to-one with the Quran.  This should be simple for them ( us, me ).  Also, we worship the same god.  This is the core of what Muhammad is preaching to jewish people in the Quran.  This is not the only place this is written, I'll bring another example in a moment.

 

Regarding context, the intention of these verses, as I have described them is consistent starting in the previous surah 28, and, it continues consistently through surah 29.  Surah 28 retells the story of moses (Musa) in egypt.  It's a story which is well known to virtually all jewish people.  We learn this story multiple times each year.  I have now read it approx. a hundred times.  It begins:

 

28:1  Ta Seem Meem.
28:2  These (are the) Verses (of) the Book the clear.
28:3  We recite to you from (the) news (of) Musa and Firaun in truth for a people who believe.
28:4  Indeed, Firaun exalted himself in the land and made its people (into) sects, oppressing a group among them, slaughtering their sons and letting live their women. Indeed, he was of the corrupters.
28:5  And We wanted to bestow a favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them the inheritors,
28:6  And [We] establish them in the land and show Firaun and Haman and their hosts through them what they were fearing.

 

Notice:  Allah desires to bestow favor on the jewish people.  They are to be leaders, inheritors, and they are to be established in the land.  That's in support of the jewish people.  Yes, it's true we, the jewish people, are often rebuked in the Quran.  But we are also supported when we do the right thing.  It's no different than the hebrew prophets who rebuke us, but their rebuke is harsher.

 

For example In 28, the story of the burning bush is briefly mentioned.  In this story Moses is given signs to prove that he had indeed had a revelation with the god of of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.  Water was turnned to blood, the famous staff-of-moses was turned to a serpent, moses' hand turns white.  Moses was also given other signs in the Torah, but, these are omitted.  In the Quran's version, the people did not believe the signs brought by Moses:

 

28:36 But when came to them Musa with Our Signs clear, they said, "Not (is) this except a magic invented, and not we heard of this among our forefathers (of) the former (people)."

 

This is not entirely different from the story told in the Torah.  The details differ, but, the jewish people did struggle with belief repeatedly even though they were witnessing miracles.  However, in the Torah, the rebuke is much harsher, God desires to destroy them all and start over.  That's much different than what the Quran is teaching. 

 

After this, the Quran describes the recieving of the Torah, and Allah, naturally, is cited with being the author of the scripture rec'd.

 

وَلَقَدۡ ءَاتَیۡنَا مُوسَى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَاۤ أَهۡلَكۡنَا ٱلۡقُرُونَ ٱلۡأُولَىٰ بَصَاۤىِٕرَ لِلنَّاسِ وَهُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لَّعَلَّهُمۡ یَتَذَكَّرُونَ ۝٤٣

 

28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember.

 

This confirms that the Quran asserts the jewish people rec'd a timeless revelation from Allah, for the mankind (لِلنَّاسِ ) .  Similarly "لِلنَّاسِ" in 12:38 and 22:25 clearly refers to all people for all time.

 

Surah 28 continues reminding the jewish people that they had rec'd a revelation, a book, scripture, verses, etc, from Allah, and here is another book which is clearly from the same source.  This is a recurring theme in the Quran.  It is identifying and discouraging disbelief, a negative belief, denial in something which is clearly from Allah. 

 

Surah 29 begins:

 

29:1  Alif Laam Meem.

29:2  Do think the people that they will be left because they say, "We believe" and they not will be tested?

29:3  And indeed, We tested those who (were) from before them. And will surely make evident Allah those who (are) truthful and He will surely make evident the liars.

 

The Quran is reminding the jewish people that Allah, God, is testing them **just like the jewish people were tested before**.  This is no different.  The clear signs were given to Moses, and the jewish people disbelieved.  The Quran, interestingly, is moving backwards in the story.  Starting with the exodus story which is generally considered by jewish people to be a private revelation, but, the Quran also gently reminds that the revelation of the clear signs also happened to Pharaoh and the egyptians ( 28:3 ).  Here the Quran goes back to the story of Noah where the whole world would have been witness to the clear signs of the great flood.  Also, the story of Abraham, which is also a universalist story.  The Quran does not detail this, but, for those who are familiar with Torah, the God of Abraham was revealing itself to the whole world through Abraham, it was not limited to the jewish people.  By going backwards in time, each prior revelation is more and more general including more and more people who are not jewish.  This is deconstructing tribalism.

 

All of this is 100% consistent with the conclusion brought in 29:46-47, "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already."

 

Surah 29 continues... Jacob and Esau are invoked.  Lot is invoked.  There are a few others listed which, in theory, would be good for me to research... but eventually we come to 46-47 ( I'll list them again ).  And the following verses confirm it as well.  

 

29:46  And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."
29:47  And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.
29:48  And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers.
29:49  Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers.

 

 Here the Quran is preaching:  "Didn't you scribe the book with your own hands?"  This is pointing to the jewish scribal custom where we write the Torah very carefully, pronouncing each word, then writing it.  "If you write it, and you know it, your own book, you MUST accept what is in this book too.  It is the same message."

 

What follows immediately after this is a brief interlude where the Muslim is speaking to the jewish person.  The jewish person challenges, and the Quran tells the Muslim how to respond.  The Surah ends encouraging the Muslim that those who disbelieve in spite of all this will be punished.  They, the Muslim, does not need to take any actions against the disbelieving jewish person.

 

The following surah is loosley connected to the previous two, 28 and 29.  Nothing in Surah 30 contradicts what I wrote.  There are no harsh judgements cast at all jewish people.  There are no statements discreditting the Torah and/or replacing it.  When reading the Quran in context and in order, it is clear that Muhammad is preaching what I wrote originally:

 

On 12/15/2023 at 7:56 AM, Daniel said:

"Listen, cousins, this book is teaching all of what is already been revealed."

 

The other example I had in mind when writing my reply is in Surah 2.  Critics of the Quran whom I have conversed with point to Surah 2 as an example of anti-jewish hatred, but they ignore the moderating verses.  Here's an example:

 

2:79  So woe to those who write the book with their (own) hands then, they say, "This (is) from Allah," to barter with it (for) a price little. So woe to them for what have written their hands and woe to them for what they earn.

2:80  And they say, "Never will touch us the Fire except (for) days numbered." Say, "Have you taken from Allah a covenant, so never will break Allah His Covenant? Or (do) you say against Allah what not you know?"

2:81  Yes, whoever earned evil and surrounded him with his sins - [so] those (are the) companions (of) the Fire; they in it (will) abide forever.

2:82  And those who believed and did righteous deeds, those (are the) companions (of) Paradise; they in it (will) abide forever.

2:83  And when We took (the) covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel, "Not you will worship except Allah, and with [the] parents (be) good and (with) relatives and [the] orphans and the needy, and speak to [the] people good, and establish the prayer and give the zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you (were) refusing

 

2 important details are above. 

 

First, here is an excellent example of what I referred to earlier regarding covenants.  The Quran greatly discourages breaking covenants, commitments, and treaties.  This is one of the problems the Quran is coming to solve among the jewish people and others.  "Don't break your covenants, contracts, and agreements, especially with Allah/God".  Those who disbelieve ALWAYS are breaking their covenants.  They do not believe in a day of judgement.  ( Surah 8, specifically ayah 56 ). 

 

Second, and most important, please notice, those jewish people who believed and did righteous deeds, past tense, before the the Quran was ever revealed, will "abide forever" in paradise.  This proves that the message of the Quran is identical to what was previously revealed.  The quran asserts this itself in other places.  ( 42:52 ).  It's true, the Torah and judaism is complicated and a bit twisted.  I love it, and I think it has a lot of value.  Clearly the Quran is teaching that what was revealed prior to the Quran warrants great and eternal reward.  The message MUST be the same else, there is a different reward?  That's tribalism. That's not Isalm.  That's not what the Quran is teaching.

 

Here's another example from Surah 3.  The Quran has been preaching rather harshly about the jewish people, but, it is careful to moderate it.  

 

3:108  These (are the) Verses (of) Allah. We recite them to you in truth. And not Allah wants injustice to the worlds.
3:109  And to Allah (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. And to Allah will be returned the matters.
3:110  You are (the) best (of) people raised for the mankind - enjoining the right and forbidding [from] the wrong and believing in Allah. And if believed (the) People (of) the Book surely would have been good for them. Among them (are) [the] believers, but most of them (are) defiantly disobedient.

 

108 begins by reminding the reader that Allah/God does not want injustice and is the owner/possessor of all that exists.  Then, it does proclaim that the Muslim, the one who submits to Allah/God is the best of the world.  That can be objectionable to the non-Muslim, but, for the context of this discussion, it's important to note, the Quran reminds the reader that the jewish people have potential.

3:111  Never will they harm you except a hurt. And if they fight you, they will turn (towards) you the backs, then not they will be helped.
3:112  Struck on them the humiliation wherever that they are found except with a rope from Allah and a rope from the people. And they incurred wrath from Allah and struck on them the poverty. That (is) because they used to disbelieve in (the) Verses (of) Allah and they killed the Prophets without right. That (is) because they disobeyed and they used to transgress.

 

This is an interesting passage if one considers what i means if jewish people are NOT turning their backs and are consistently winning military conflicts.

3:113  They are not (the) same; among (the) People (of) the Book (is) a community standing (and) reciting (the) Verses (of) Allah (in the) hours (of) the night and they prostrate.
3:114  They believe in Allah and the Day the Last and they enjoin [with] the right and forbid [from] the wrong and they hasten in the good deeds. And those (are) from the righteous.
3:115  And whatever they do of a good, then never will they be denied it. And Allah (is) All-Knowing of the God-fearing.
3:116  Indeed, those who disbelieved, never will avail [for] them their wealth and not their children against Allah anything, and those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.

 

We are not all the same.    This is the example of the rocking-and-rolling I was referring to earlier.  If the reader has a negative opinion of jewish people, this is validated in many circumstances, but, the Quran is teaching that it's not always true.  They, we, me, are not all the same.  It's true we have a rocky history, and we have many who disbelieve among us, but, The People of the Book are a community standing.  Yes.  That is how we pray.  We are standing.  Yes, We are reciting the verses of Allah.  That is the majority of our prayer ritual.   We have verses of Allah/God before, prior to the revelation of the Quran.  We do believe in Allah and the Last Day.  We do what is right.  We forbid what is wrong.  We rush to do good deeds.  Per the Quran, this will never be denied.  

 

@Vajra Mind, how am I doing?  Did I misquote?  Am I relying on faulty translations?  Isn't the Quran supporting jewish people when we are doing the right things?

 

If there are no objections to what I've written, I think the next step is to look at what you brought which are specific examples of the harsh rebuke of jewish people.  These are counter examples.  Let's look at those in context and in sequence, OK?  I'd like to look for moderating verses in close proximity.  Then I think it would be good to compare those harsh rebukes in the Quran to what is brought in the hebrew bible to see if the Quran is teaching anything which is not equivilant or less pejorative than is accepted as jewish scripture.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Daniel

[Vajra Mind]

Hi Daniel,

 

I have read what you posted and need to emphasize few points beforehand:

 

1.     Please try to stick to verses with less personal interpretations. I will stick to Quran verses because you seem to depend mainly on them rather than Hadith, reasons of revelation, Sirah and Tafseer.

2.     You mentioned context, this is very important so please be mindful about that because your assessment lacks context, consistency and mostly cherry picking plus assumptions.

3.     You mentioned Dr. Shenaz Shaik and put a link about her biography, she is a medical doctor and she seems from Asian origin so she is neither native Arab nor Islamic scholar. Look at the translation of this verse which you posted for example:

 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

29:49  Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers.

 

The Arabic word is Sodoor which is chests not breasts. May HaShem help me:)

In any case do not worry about the translation, I will correct it whenever required.

 

https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=106

 

2:106 “If we ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, we replace it with a better or similar one. Do you not know that Allah is Most Capable of everything?”

 

There is a nice footnote pointing to the Chronology and Abrogation of Quran verses. Quran was revealed over 23 years. 10 years in Mecca when Mohammed did not have an army, and 13 years in Madinah when he had an army. This is the footnote from the link:

 

“The Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years. New rules were introduced when the believers were ready to accept and apply them. Replacing a ruling with another is called abrogation (naskh). For example, alcohol consumption was forbidden over three stages (see 2:219, 4:43, and 5:90, respectively). Some of the Prophet’s companions said, “If drinking had been forbidden from day one, no one would have accepted Islam!”

[Vajra Mind]

Let’s start…

 

Cute verse that some people use as a sign of moderation in Quran without taking full context:

 

5:69 Indeed, the believers, Jews, Sabians and Christians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.

 

This verse is abrogated by the following verse:

 

3:85 Whoever seeks a way other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers.

 

The previous verse is from Surah 3 (named “Household of Imram” mostly about Jews) it is also preceded by more relevant verses, let’s take them one by one:

 

3:19 Certainly, Allah’s only Way is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture did not dispute ˹among themselves˺ out of mutual envy until knowledge came to them. Whoever denies Allah’s signs, then surely Allah is swift in reckoning.

 

Islam is the only way. Islam means submission. Verb Aslama (past), Yoslim (present).

 

3:20 So if they argue with you ˹O Prophet˺, say, “I have submitted myself to Allah, and so have my followers.” And ask those who were given the Scripture and the illiterate ˹people˺, “Have you submitted yourselves ˹to Allah˺?” If they submit, they will be ˹rightly˺ guided. But if they turn away, then your duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺. And Allah is All-Seeing of ˹His˺ servants.

 

People of the scripture same as people of the book (Jews and Christians)

 

3:23 Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scriptures? Yet when they are invited to the Book of Allah to settle their disputes, some of them turn away heedlessly.

 

They are called (not invited) to the book of Allah!

 

3:31 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “If you ˹sincerely˺ love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive your sins. For Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

 

 Quran is telling Jews to follow Mohammed

 

3:45 ˹Remember˺ when the angels proclaimed, “O Mary! Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him, his name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; honored in this world and the Hereafter, and he will be one of those nearest ˹to Allah˺.

 

We are still in the same Surah and it continue after few verses:

 

3:49 and ˹make him˺ a messenger to the Children of Israel to proclaim I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make for you a bird from clay, breathe into it, and it will become a ˹real˺ bird—by Allah’s Will

 

Jesus is also prophet and messenger of Allah to the Jews!

 

3:50 And I will confirm the Torah revealed before me and legalize some of what had been forbidden to you

 

Jesus has his own Sharia Law and he will legalize few things, so how did Jews respond?

3:53 When Jesus sensed disbelief from his people, he asked, “Who will stand up with me for Allah?” The disciples replied, “We will stand up for Allah. We believe in Allah, so bear witness that we have submitted.”

 

Jews rejected Jesus the prophet of Allah to them!

 

3:54 And the disbelievers made a plan ˹against Jesus˺, but Allah also planned—and Allah is the best of planners.

 

Not only Jews rejected Jesus but made a plan against him.

 

3:55 ˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and elevate your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes.

 

Allah has saved Jesus from the Jews, then what??

 

3:56 As for those who disbelieve, I will subject them to a severe punishment in this life and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.

 

Do Jews believe in Jesus now that Quran has revealed this? Are they going to be punished?

 

3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; he submitted in all uprightness and was not a polytheist.

 

Why compare Abraham faith? Are Jews and Christians polytheists?? Yes, they called polytheists in a different other verses, we will come to that later.

 

3:68 Indeed, those who have the best claim to Abraham are his followers, this Prophet, and the believers. And Allah is the Guardian of those who believe.

 

3:69 Some of the People of the Book wish to mislead you ˹believers˺. They mislead none but themselves, yet they fail to perceive it.

 

3:70 O  People of the Book! Why do you reject the signs of Allah while you bear witness ˹to their truth˺?

 

3:71 O  People of the Book! Why do you mix the truth with falsehood and hide the truth knowingly?

 

What are the Jews rejecting and hiding? It is mentioned in other verses later. while the rest of the verses continue on accusing groups of Jews of conspiracies against Muslims.

 

3:84 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord—we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.”

 

This is the Islamic belief and as a result:

 

3:85 Whoever seeks a way other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers.

 

This is followed by this verse:

 

3:86 How will Allah guide a people who chose to disbelieve after they had believed, acknowledged the Messenger to be true, and received clear proofs? For Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

 

Who are the ones who disbelieved after they have believed in that context so far? Pagans or Jews or ex-Muslims? This is their punishment:

 

3:87 Their reward is that they will be condemned by Allah, the angels, and all of humanity.

 

Dishonest translation the word is La’an means cursed.

 

3:93 All food was lawful for the children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Bring the Torah and read it, if your claims are true.”

 

3:94 Then whoever still fabricates lies about Allah, they will be the ˹true˺ wrongdoers.

 

3:95 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Allah has declared the truth. So follow the Way of Abraham, the upright—who was not a polytheist.”

 

Again, Quran says again Abraham is not polytheist after a verse talking about Jews.

 

3:110 You are the best community ever raised for humanity—you encourage good, forbid evil, and believe in Allah. Had the People of the Book believed, it would have been better for them. Some of them are faithful, but most are rebellious.

 

Poor translation. You were not are. Best nation not community and in Islamic sources it means the Islamic nation because the following verse confirms it.

 

3:111 They can never inflict harm on you, except a little annoyance. But if they meet you in battle, they will flee and they will have no helpers.

 

The people of the book (Jews mainly) from the context, cannot inflict harm on you Muslims.

 

3:112 They will be stricken with disgrace wherever they go, unless they are protected by a covenant with Allah or a treaty with the people. They have invited the displeasure of Allah and have been branded with misery for rejecting Allah’s revelations and murdering ˹His˺ prophets unjustly. This is ˹a fair reward˺ for their disobedience and violations.

 

3:113 Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite Allah’s revelations throughout the night, prostrating ˹in prayer˺.

 

One moderate verse. Are they the same as the disbelievers who rejected Jesus?? Are they converts to Islam?? Let’s see more verses.

 

3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, encourage good and forbid evil, and race with one another in doing good. They are ˹truly˺ among the righteous.

 

A second moderate verse. Are they the same as the disbelievers who rejected Jesus?? Are they converts to Islam?? Let’s see more verses.

 

3:181 Indeed, Allah has heard those ˹among the Jews˺ who said, “Allah is poor; we are rich!” We have certainly recorded their slurs and their killing of prophets unjustly. Then We will say, “Taste the torment of burning!

 

3:199 Indeed, there are some among the People of the Book who truly believe in Allah and what has been revealed to you ˹believers˺ and what was revealed to them. They humble themselves before Allah—never trading Allah’s revelations for a fleeting gain. Their reward is with their Lord. Surely Allah is swift in reckoning.

 

Are those converts? Do they believe in Jesus as revealed in Quran??

[Vajra Mind]

5:12 Allah made a covenant with the Children of Israel and appointed twelve leaders from among them and ˹then˺ said, “I am truly with you. If you establish prayer, pay alms-tax, believe in My messengers, support them, and lend to Allah a good loan, I will certainly forgive your sins and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow. And whoever among you disbelieves afterwards has truly strayed from the Right Way.”

 

 Did Jews believe in Jesus and Mohammed and supported them?

 

5:13 But for breaking their covenant We condemned them and hardened their hearts. They distorted the words of the Scripture and neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold. You ˹O Prophet˺ will always find deceit on their part, except for a few. But pardon them and bear with them. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers.

 

Dishonest translation condemned here is La’an meaning cursed them. Who are the exceptional few? Are they the few who converted?

 

5:15 O People of the Book! Now Our Messenger has come to you, revealing much of what you have hidden of the Scriptures and disregarding much. There certainly has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book

 

5:19 O People of the Book! Our Messenger has indeed come to you, making things clear to you after an interval between the messengers so you do not say, “There has never come to us a deliverer of good news or a warner.” Now there has come to you a deliverer of good news and a warner. And Allah is Most Capable of everything.

 

Mohammed is a messenger to Jews too not to Arabs only. Did Jews take him as such?

 

5:41 O Messenger! Do not grieve for those who race to disbelieve—those who say, “We believe” with their tongues, but their hearts are in disbelief. Nor those among the Jews who eagerly listen to lies, attentive to those who are too arrogant to come to you. They distort the Scripture, taking rulings out of context, then say, “If this is the ruling you get ˹from Muḥammad˺, accept it. If not, beware!” Whoever Allah allows to be deluded, you can never be of any help to them against Allah. It is not Allah’s Will to purify their hearts. For them is disgrace in this world, and they will suffer a tremendous punishment in the Hereafter.

 

5:48 We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences.

 

5:49 And judge between them ˹O Prophet˺ by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires. And beware, so they do not lure you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. If they turn away ˹from Allah’s judgment˺, then know that it is Allah’s Will to repay them for some of their sins, and that many people are indeed rebellious.

 

Quran is the supreme authority over previous scripture.

 

5:51 O believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as guardians—they are guardians of each other. Whoever does so will be counted as one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

 

5:59 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! Do you resent us only because we believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before—while most of you are rebellious?”

 

5:60 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Shall I inform you of those who deserve a worse punishment from Allah ˹than the rebellious˺? It is those who earned Allah’s condemnation and displeasure—some being reduced to apes and pigs and worshippers of false gods. These are far worse in rank and farther astray from the Right Way.”

 

Dishonest translation condemnation here is La’an meaning Cursed. Displeasure is Anger, the Arabic word is ghadeba

 

5:64 ˹Some among˺ the Jews said, “Allah is tight-fisted.”May their fists be tied and they be condemned for what they said. Rather, He is open-handed, giving freely as He pleases. That which has been revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ from your Lord will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. We have stirred among them hostility and hatred until the Day of Judgment. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, Allah puts it out. And they strive to spread corruption in the land. And Allah does not like corruptors.

 

Again, dishonesty from the translator, there is no “some among” it just read “The Jews said”. Again, the word condemned is wrong translation it is Cursed.

 

5:65 Had the People of the Book only been faithful and mindful ˹of Allah˺, We would have certainly absolved them of their sins and admitted them into the Gardens of Bliss.

 

5:68 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve.

 

5:70 Indeed, We took a covenant from the Children of Israel and sent them messengers. Whenever a messenger came to them with what they did not desire, they denied some and killed others.

 

5:78 The disbelievers among the Children of Israel were condemned in the revelations of David and Jesus, son of Mary. That was for their disobedience and violations.

 

Cursed not condemned.

 

5:82 You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and polytheists and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christians.

 

The word bitter is adawah in Arabic should be hostile.

[Vajra Mind]

2:40 O children of Israel! Remember My favours upon you. Fulfil your covenant and I will fulfil Mine, and stand in awe of Me ˹alone˺.

 

2:41 Believe in My revelations which confirm your Scriptures. Do not be the first to deny them or trade them for a fleeting gain. And be mindful of Me.

 

Mohammed revelations confirm Jesus as prophet and Messiah. Do Jews believe that?

 

2:42 Do not mix truth with falsehood or hide the truth knowingly.

 

2:61 And ˹remember˺ when you said, “O Moses! We cannot endure the same meal ˹every day˺. So ˹just˺ call upon your Lord on our behalf, He will bring forth for us some of what the earth produces of herbs, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.” Moses scolded ˹them˺, “Do you exchange what is better for what is worse? ˹You can˺ go down to any village and you will find what you have asked for.” They were stricken with disgrace and misery, and they invited the displeasure of Allah for rejecting Allah’s signs and unjustly killing the prophets. This is ˹a fair reward˺ for their disobedience and violations.

 

Displeasure here is Arabic ghadab (anger)

 

2:65 You are already aware of those of you who broke the Sabbath. We said to them, “Be disgraced apes!”

 

2:75 Do you ˹believers still˺ expect them to be true to you, though a group of them would hear the word of Allah then knowingly corrupt it after understanding it?

 

Why Quran consistently and repeatedly accused Jews of not believing?

 

2:76 When they meet the believers they say, “We believe.” But in private they say ˹to each other˺, “Will you disclose to the believers the knowledge Allah has revealed to you, so that they may use it against you before your Lord? Do you not understand?”

 

Jewish conspiracy

 

2.87 Indeed, We gave Moses the Book and sent after him successive messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the holy spirit. Why is it that every time a messenger comes to you ˹Israelites˺ with something you do not like, you become arrogant, rejecting some and killing others?

 

Jews rejecting Jesus and killing prophets.

 

2:88 They say, “Our hearts are unreceptive!” In fact, Allah has condemned them for their disbelief. They have but little faith.

 

Again, condemned here is cursed for not believing in Jesus.

 

2:89 Although they used to pray for victory ˹by means of the Prophet˺ over the polytheists, when there came to them a Book from Allah which they recognized confirming the Scripture they had ˹in their hands˺, they rejected it. So may Allah’s condemnation be upon the disbelievers.

 

Again, condemnation here is curse Arabic La’anah (noun).

 

2:90 Miserable is the price they have sold their souls for—denying Allah’s revelation and resenting Allah for granting His grace to whoever He wills of His servants! They have earned wrath upon wrath. And such disbelievers will suffer a humiliating punishment.

 

Resenting Allah for his grace upon Mohammed. Wrath or anger is proper translation.

 

2:91 When it is said to them: “Believe in what Allah has revealed,” they reply, “We only believe in what was sent down to us,” and they deny what came afterwards, though it is the truth confirming their own Scriptures! Ask ˹them, O  Prophet˺, “Why then did you kill Allah’s prophets before, if you are ˹truly˺ believers?”

 

2:100 Why is it that every time they make a covenant, a group of them casts it aside? In fact, most of them do not believe.

 

2:105 The disbelievers from the People of the Book and the polytheists would not want you to receive any blessing from your Lord, but Allah selects whoever He wills for His mercy. And Allah is the Lord of infinite bounty.

 

2:109 Many among the People of the Book wish they could turn you ˹believers˺ back to disbelief because of their envy, after the truth has been made clear to them. Pardon and bear with them until Allah delivers His decision. Surely Allah is Most Capable of everything.

 

2:120 Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. Say, “Allah’s guidance is the only ˹true˺ guidance.” And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, there would be none to protect or help you against Allah.

 

2:135 The Jews and Christians each say, “Follow our faith to be ˹rightly˺ guided.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “No! We follow the faith of Abraham, the upright—who was not a polytheist.”

 

2:140 Do you claim that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants were all Jews or Christians?” Say, “Who is more knowledgeable: you or Allah?” Who does more wrong than those who hide the testimony they received from Allah? And Allah is never unaware of what you do.

 

2:145 Even if you were to bring every proof to the People of the Book, they would not accept your direction ˹of prayer˺, nor would you accept theirs; nor would any of them accept the direction ˹of prayer˺ of another. And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, then you would certainly be one of the wrongdoers.

 

Jews rejecting Mohammed direction of prayer to Mecca. Not believing in revelation.

 

2:146 Those We have given the Scripture recognize this ˹Prophet˺ as they recognize their own children. Yet a group of them hides the truth knowingly.

 

This is what the Jews are hiding knowingly.

[Vajra Mind]

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax, willingly submitting, fully humbled

 

Jews and Christians are not the religion of truth and they are fully humbled.

 

9:30 The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ˹from the truth˺?

 

The actual Arabic word is Uzair/Ozair not Ezra. This verse caused a controversy among Islamic scholars and tradition since no one knew who is Ozair and when did Jews make such heresy.  

 

9:31 They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him. Glorified is He above what they associate ˹with Him.

 

Verses 9:30 and 9:31 explain why Jews are called polytheists in Quran no monotheists. 

 

9:33 He is the One Who has sent His Messenger with ˹true˺ guidance and the religion of truth making it prevail over all others, even to the dismay of the polytheists

 

7:156 Allah replied, “I will inflict My torment on whoever I will. But My mercy encompasses everything. I will ordain mercy for those who shun evil, pay alms-tax, and believe in Our revelations.

 

7:157 “˹They are˺ the ones who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whose description they find in their Torah and the Gospel. He commands them to do good and forbids them from evil, permits for them what is lawful and forbids to them what is impure, and relieves them from their burdens and the shackles that bound them. ˹Only˺ those who believe in him, honor and support him, and follow the light sent down to him will be successful.”

 

Verses 7:156-157 clearly states who are the believers again.

[Vajra Mind]

Now Daniel, can you interpret the following verses 59:2-5. Who were those disbelievers of the people of the book? How did they defy Allah?

 

59:2 He is the One Who expelled the disbelievers of the People of the Book from their homes for ˹their˺ first banishment ˹ever˺. You never thought they would go. And they thought their strongholds would put them out of Allah’s reach. But ˹the decree of˺ Allah came upon them from where they never expected. And He cast horror into their hearts so they destroyed their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So take a lesson ˹from this˺, O people of insight!

 

59:3 Had Allah not decreed exile for them, He would have certainly punished them in this world. And in the Hereafter they will suffer the punishment of the Fire.

 

59:4 This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies Allah, then Allah is truly severe in punishment.

 

59:5 Whatever palm trees you ˹believers˺ cut down or left standing intact, it was ˹all˺ by Allah’s Will, so that He might disgrace the rebellious.

 

Also, these two verses are mentioning another battle with the Jews. Can you interpret what happened and how?

 

33:26 And He brought down those from the People of the Book who supported the enemy alliance from their own strongholds, and cast horror into their hearts. You ˹believers˺ killed some, and took others captive.

 

33:27 He has also caused you to take over their lands, homes, and wealth, as well as lands you have not yet set foot on. And Allah is Most Capable of everything.

 

Last one Quran mentioned 2 prophets, whose is Ahmad and who is Mohammed?

 

61:6 And ˹remember˺ when Jesus, son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel! I am truly Allah’s messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Aḥmad.” Yet when the Prophet came to them with clear proofs, they said, “This is pure magic.”

 

48:29 Muḥammad is the Messenger of Allah.

 

The point of these relevant questions in this last post is help you realized that you need an outer reference to get the right context. Like How many wars did Mohammed waged against Jews? How did it happen? Was it truly justified or based on agenda? 

[Vajra Mind]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

We are not all the same.    This is the example of the rocking-and-rolling I was referring to earlier.  If the reader has a negative opinion of jewish people, this is validated in many circumstances, but, the Quran is teaching that it's not always true.  They, we, me, are not all the same.  It's true we have a rocky history, and we have many who disbelieve among us, but, The People of the Book are a community standing.  Yes.  That is how we pray.  We are standing.  Yes, We are reciting the verses of Allah.  That is the majority of our prayer ritual.   We have verses of Allah/God before, prior to the revelation of the Quran.  We do believe in Allah and the Last Day.  We do what is right.  We forbid what is wrong.  We rush to do good deeds.  Per the Quran, this will never be denied.  

 

If you read my posts carefully. I pulled the most relevant verses and they are pointing clearly who are the disbelievers who are not included in the mercy of Allah and those faithful who converted or were from ancient times (before Mohammed) who followed the prophets faithfully and did good deeds. 

 

Such verses are completely in Harmony with Hadith. There are few Hadiths (Grade Sahih) which will shed perfect clarity on those verses identifying those who believed in Mohammed and who did not.