Recommendable and not legit systems

[steve]

@wandelaar

I really appreciate the clarity and precision of your posts. I’m sorry the Original Dao forum closed down but happy you found your way back here.

[Shadow_self]

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Science isn't treated as a belief, the pinnacle of organizational authority and truth, and the means to sustainable profit. At least not by those who know what they are talking about. As soon as it becomes that it stops being science.

 

I think you mean it shouldn't be rather than it isn't, and to this I wholeheartedly agree.

 

We are long past actual science being what is actively pursued by the majority of researchers/scientists

 

On the surface it does appear that way, but once someones pokes and prods a bit, the cracks appear

 

The replication crisis is just one of many of those cracks

 

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

What you are rightly criticizing is pseudoscience. Pseudoscience can be the result of all sorts of things: stupidity, dogmatism, greed, the belief in authority, social conformism, fear of rejection, financial dependency on interested parties, etc.

 

Yes, but just as much, scientism,

 

You see what is promoted as science is mostly pseudoscience enforced via scientism and so what you get is pseudoscience and scientism in bed with one another, and thats what im talking about.

 

That is most of what masquerades as science today.

 

I enjoy this story 

 

Quote

According to a 19th century legend, the Truth and the Lie meet one day. The Lie says to the Truth: “It’s a marvellous day today”! The Truth looks up to the skies and sighs, for the day was really beautiful.

 

They spend a lot of time together, ultimately arriving beside a well. The Lie tells the Truth: “The water is very nice, let’s take a bath together!” The Truth, once again suspicious, tests the water and discovers that it indeed is very nice. They undress and start bathing. Suddenly, the Lie comes out of the water, puts on the clothes of the Truth and runs away. The furious Truth comes out of the well and runs everywhere to find the Lie and to get her clothes back. The World, seeing the Truth naked, turns its gaze away, with contempt and rage.

 

The poor Truth returns to the well and disappears forever, hiding therein, its shame. Since then, the Lie travels around the world, dressed as the Truth, satisfying the needs of society, because, the World, in any case, harbours no wish at all to meet the naked Truth.

 

What is done for the pursuit of truth and knowledge as opposed to profit and power is sadly a very small amount, but fortunately, it is people like that that do indeed allow me to keep some faith that there are indeed people out their who are in it for love of it, as opposed to the other crap that comes with it. You'll find though, that most of these people are overshadowed and unknown by their counterparts, sadly

 

And whats worse, nobody ever tells you before you get into it, its something your really have to see first hand. I imagine during the early years before it became so closely intertwined with big business and politics it was a far purer endeavor

 

But then again, before religions became involved with politics and power, they probably were too

 

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And all those things do indeed happen, so in practice science is a mixture of real science and pseudoscience. The same is true for spirituality.

 

Certainly true, cant argue with that. Plenty of half truths on both sides

 

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

A lot of the latter isn't the real deal and nevertheless sells like crazy. So apparently it isn't that easy to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

If you want to figure out what is real science and what isn't: Replicate the conditions and see if the same result occurs

 

If you want to figure out what spiritual practices are real: Replicate the practices and see if the same result occurs

 

Isnt that kind of what I said earlier? You kind of have to get stuck in to test it out

 

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

That also holds for both science and spirituality. I am not putting one or the other on a pedestal.

 

I don't think you are. 

[wandelaar]

@steve

 

Thank you very much! I'm also happy to see that the heavy political turmoil that lead to the split up has subsided here and the same easy going attitude as there was in the beginning of the Original Dao forum can now be found here.

 

@Shadow_self

 

It looks like after all we don't disagree as much as it would seem at the start. I had my own experiences with academia as I studied physics at the university but dropped out after only two years. Furthermore I had my experiences on a science forum on the internet where the words of an authority or text book carried more weight than any contrary argument (however well reasoned) that a member of the forum might make. Lastly also when at the University I read the disquieting book Betrayers of the Truth by Nicholas Wade and William Broad. So I am fully aware of the failing of science as it really is. However I also studied lots of alternative theories as they are presented on the internet by independent thinkers and researchers and found the overwhelming majority of those to be utter and complete nonsens. So I see no alternative than to make do with science as it really is by separating the wheat from the chaff as best as I can. Only rarely do I find something of scientific interest outside of the official circles of science.

Edited February 7, 2023 by wandelaar

[kakapo]

18 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The problem is, I have yet to meet a person who suggests this approach, and also  understands the actual ramifications of this

 

 

Is there something they can do that you cannot to rule out this possibility of fraud?

 

Or is this just about the appeal to authority

 

(Genuine question, not meant in a harsh way) 

 

 

Academics and doctors, believe it or not rarely have a critical mindset.

 

I know of some who would actually take this on, and would be rather happy to. They could have all the dots joined relatively quickly, and a contract signed in about a week or less

 

The bigger issue, and I feel really strongly about this, is that I don't think the world needs this now. Im not a fan of putting anything of this manner into the public academic sphere. 

 

I understand what they are trying to do here, and while perhaps, their hearts are in the right place, which I do respect I do not believe any of them have the experience or foresight to know whats comes out of this, and if they did, I think a more reserved approach would be taken

 

 

There is sometimes a tangible of feeling Xie Qi when it is purged from the body.

 

If you were to pass it to someone else, they would feel something. Some people use this as a means to pretend they can actually project qi, when in reality, they are just making another person ill

 

Actually, better yet, in some cases it is actually visible as a kind of smoke, or you start seeing all manner of weird stuff happen.

 

The issue however, is it requires a certain level of foundational work to get going

 

When you are dealing with people who don't want to do the foundational work, but want the result...it gets kind of tricky

 

Just a quick FYI

 

If I recall correctly, people have already done the whole projection into a liquid thing and lab tested it to confirm nothing was added.

 

Youd need to reach out to them to ask real specifics, they havent been here in a while

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can certainly understand why you feel this is an appeal to authority.

 

Police routinely kill people, "lose" the bodycam and dashcam footage, and report no one saw anything.

 

Then they investigate themselves and determine that they did nothing wrong.

 

This is why I am an advocate for independent oversight and investigation.

 

I also try to project how I see things and imagine how others might as well.

When I see these videos of people demonstrating siddhis, my first thought is, "Who knows if a device is being used or not?"

What I want to see is independent oversight by qualified individuals doing their best to rule out fraud on camera.

This, to me, is the gold standard in evidence.

If you feel that amounts to an appeal to authority, I respect your opinion.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

22 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@kakapo After a good nights rest I'm back. Years back I already pointed out that medical doctors and scientists can be easily fooled by a skilled stage magician. There has been a little improvement in the discussion now in the sense that the possibility (or even the likelihood) of fraud is recognized. But you absolutely have to add some critical minded stage magicians to the team if you want to rule out fraud to the best of your ability.

 

Better still would be to search for an experimental method that can register even minute forms of physical chi projection so that anybody willing to do a little training can test it at home. All supposing chi projection to exist of course. I wonder if working with an electroscope would help. Have you guys tried using such an apparatus?

 

 

 

If you stripped Chris Angel naked, handcuffed him, and took him to a random hotel room you chose, checking him for metal with a metal detector, I bet his magic wouldn't be so great.

That's just my opinion.

Edited February 7, 2023 by kakapo

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

I can certainly understand why you feel this is an appeal to authority.

 

Police routinely kill people, "lose" the bodycam and dashcam footage, and report no one saw anything.

 

Then they investigate themselves and determine that they did nothing wrong.

 

This is why I am an advocate for independent oversight and investigation.

 

I also try to project how I see things and imagine how others might as well.

When I see these videos of people demonstrating siddhis, my first thought is, "Who knows if a device is being used or not?"

What I want to see is independent oversight by qualified individuals doing their best to rule out fraud on camera.

This, to me, is the gold standard in evidence.

If you feel that amounts to an appeal to authority, I respect your opinion.

 

 

 

Well I respect your opinion also (genuinely) , and It is not that I don't think independent oversight cant be helpful.

 

Im just wondering exactly how it fits into what you are talking about regards "professional"

 

Scientists and doctors generally don't go around debunking people.

 

There is one specific subfield of psychology concerned with this, which is anomalistic psychology

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/weird-science/200909/anomalistic-psychology-what-is-it-and-why-bother

 

Quote

Anomalistic psychology may be defined as the study of extraordinary phenomena of behaviour and experience, including (but not restricted to) those which are often labeled "paranormal". It is directed towards understanding bizarre experiences that many people have without assuming a priori that there is anything paranormal involved. It entails attempting to explain paranormal and related beliefs and ostensibly paranormal experiences in terms of known psychological and physical factors.

 

Most people are intrigued by the idea of using psychology to try to explain what is commonly (and often misleadingly) referred to as "the unexplained" and are keen to find out more. But a small minority, often those who see themselves as hard-nosed scientists, roll their eyes in disgust at the very idea that anyone should put time and effort into such an enterprise. As far as they are concerned, they can be absolutely sure that all paranormal claims are invalid without even having to look at the evidence put forward. Furthermore, they are sure that all such claims are the product of insanity, stupidity or dishonesty. In fact, the vast majority of such claims come from people who are perfectly sane, intelligent and honest.

 

There are a number of very good reasons for taking anomalous experiences seriously. The most obvious of these is the sheer prevalence of such experiences and beliefs. Time after time, opinion polls in the UK and USA show that the majority of the adult population endorses at least one paranormal claim that flies in the face of the conventional scientific worldview. Furthermore, a sizeable minority claim to have had direct personal experience of the paranormal - everything from telepathy, precognitive dreams and psychic healing to seeing ghosts and UFOs. It is not just modern Western adults either. Such high levels of paranormal belief have been found in every single society both geographically and historically although the content of the beliefs and experiences may vary across cultures. Clearly, if psychology has nothing to say about such phenomena, it is missing out on an important part of the human condition.

 

The thing here would be they take what appears to be "paranormal" and attempt to find a "normal" explanation via experimentation or other means. So this is the field of academia you'd really need to be in to be considered an "expert" or "professional" in regards to something like this

 

Have your group personally ever taken someone from this field with you to investigate such phenomena?

 

To me if you really wanted to have any kind of "proof" that this is not explainable by current understanding, then you'd first need to get the whole, yeah its not trickery thing done. I mean if you are talking about people who do this "professionally" then this is the realm they tend to operate in. The logical sequence would be after you've gotten such people to rule out "fraud" that you would then mobilize others to try and "explain" (IE things like an MRI we mentioned earlier)

 

The Idea of appeal to authority is less a jab and more a  nod to the fact that you guys collectively, I'm sure, have more experience meeting people and trying to investigate this specific phenomenon than any doctor, scientist or dare I say, anomalistic psychologist.

 

I mean your description of past experiences points to the idea you've all done this dozens of times, correct? 

 

So if lets say, you aren't bringing an anomalistic psychologist with you, who is basically a professional in relation to finding natural explanations for seemingly "paranormal" phenomena, it is rather hard to say you are looking for an expert opinion.

 

Moreover, if you've done this multiple times, and doctors/scientists have not, it feels more concerned with having a few people with PhD after there name who appear to be authorities (doctors/scientists) but in reality, have actually no real expertise in the area

 

PS: Im aware that there are several people from all manner of backgrounds who run these "paranormal" challenges that you mentioned. Majority of the time however, its not actually their field of expertise, which I am sure you know. As you can see from the boxed text above, they will typically dismiss your claim without even looking at the evidence, an experience you seem to be rather accustomed to. 

[wandelaar]

3 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

If you stripped Chris Angel naked, handcuffed him, and took him to a random hotel room you chose, checking him for metal with a metal detector, I bet his magic wouldn't be so great.

That's just my opinion.

 

I don't see how this relates to my post. I never claimed illusionists to be paranormally gifted. I only suggested a physical experiment you could do. If influencing an electroscope would be easy for you and those of your group then it might also be interesting for others like myself to see if they can train themselves to do it. An electroscope is a very sensitive and relatively cheap instrument, so it could in principle be used in DIY experiments. However if you or people from your group can't influence an electroscope than it's useless for me to even try. That's why I asked.

[wandelaar]

@Shadow_self

 

What is a good book about anomalistic psychology? I have read lots of books about parapsychology, but none about anomalistic psychology.

[forestofemptiness]

12 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

If you stripped Chris Angel naked, handcuffed him, and took him to a random hotel room you chose, checking him for metal with a metal detector, I bet his magic wouldn't be so great.

That's just my opinion.

 

Gee, I wonder why more people aren't signing up to be stripped, handcuffed, and probed by strangers in a hotel room. Seriously? I wouldn't do this to prove that I can speak English. The fact that you can't see how people would not be willing to sign up for such a thing is troubling and quite frankly undermines the credibility of these posts. 

 

Nor could one expect anyone who mastered fa qi to subject themselves to testing by amateurs anyway, or professional debunkers. No matter what you do, it won't be enough. In addition, you've already made it clear that you prefer to hide behind anonymous rumors and innuendoes rather than give people a chance to rebut your allegations.

 

And anyway, the gold standard isn't scientific testing, but self replication. Without being able to learn it yourself, there will always be doubts. Plus, who cares if some one else can do it, if you can't ever learn to do it yourself? 

 

[Shadow_self]

24 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@Shadow_self

 

What is a good book about anomalistic psychology? I have read lots of books about parapsychology, but none about anomalistic psychology.

 

Here is a long list of recommended  and further readings for the module taught on Anomalistic Psychology at Goldsmiths

 

https://rl.talis.com/3/gold/lists/9248268A-E2F6-EE19-4426-900E5D785066.html?lang=en

 

I'm fairly sure anything you are looking for will be in that list, its probably the most comprehensive list you'll find online

 

The books by Holt and French are interesting and touch on the basics, but if you want a deeper look, I think you could look at the lectures by reading list and title

 

[wandelaar]

29 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

And anyway, the gold standard isn't scientific testing, but self replication. Without being able to learn it yourself, there will always be doubts.

 

Indeed. That's why I keep searching for a DIY experiment to at least prove the possibility and existence of the phenomenon to my own satisfaction.

 

Quote

Plus, who cares if some one else can do it, if you can't ever learn to do it yourself?

 

The problem with someone else doing it is that you have to rule out fraud, which is much more difficult that most think. Otherwise I would be quite happy with that, without trying to do it myself.

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Indeed. That's why I keep searching for a DIY experiment to at least prove the possibility and existence of the phenomenon to my own satisfaction.

 

Perhaps I can at least explain why this is difficult to do

 

The Qi needs to be build up in the body to a sufficient degree and density that is possible to push it out.

 

This generally happens with Yijinjing training

 

The easiest way for you to do this yourself, and it is possible if you talk to the right people. You could go to meet someone who can do this, they will temporarily inflate your channels, push and bunch of qi in, and you will be able to push it out

 

Just note the effect is temporary.

 

You can see an example of that here

 

 

[wandelaar]

21 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Here is a long list of recommended  and further readings for the module taught on Anomalistic Psychology at Goldsmiths

 

https://rl.talis.com/3/gold/lists/9248268A-E2F6-EE19-4426-900E5D785066.html?lang=en

 

I'm fairly sure anything you are looking for will be in that list, its probably the most comprehensive list you'll find online

 

The books by Holt and French are interesting and touch on the basics, but if you want a deeper look, I think you could look at the lectures by reading list and title

 

Much in the list is already familiar to me from my interest in parapsychology. Apparently there's a large overlap between anomalistic psychology and parapsychology. But with a view to academic acceptance it's a smart move of anomalistic psychology to focus on the belief in paranormal (and kindred) phenomena instead of the existence (or nonexistence) of paranormal phenomena as parapsychology is doing. Nobody doubts that beliefs in the paranormal are held by a large part of the population. So at least the existence of the subject matter of anomalistic psychology isn't in doubt. I think I will do best by starting with the introductory book by French and Stone.

[Shadow_self]

8 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Much in the list is already familiar to me from my interest in parapsychology. Apparently there's a large overlap between anomalistic psychology and parapsychology. But with a view to academic acceptance it's a smart move of anomalistic psychology to focus on the belief in paranormal (and kindred) phenomena instead of the existence (or nonexistence) of paranormal phenomena as parapsychology is doing. Nobody doubts that beliefs in the paranormal are held by a large part of the population. So at least the existence of the subject matter of anomalistic psychology isn't in doubt. I think I will do best by starting with the introductory book by French and Stone.

 

Correct

 

Parapsychology  (experimentally speaking) starts from the opposite premise to Anomalistic Psychology, so they have a large overlap as they are concerned with the same thing really in most cases (though the latter does look at belief a lot too, often as it ties into explaining phenomena) 

 

If Parapsychology thinks something is "supernatural" and works towards proving it, Anomalistic Psychology would view the phenomenon as natural until proven otherwise

 

It is rather hard to take the former very seriously at times. I think a revision is needed badly there

[wandelaar]

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Perhaps I can at least explain why this is difficult to do

 

The Qi needs to be build up in the body to a sufficient degree and density that is possible to push it out.

 

This generally happens with Yijinjing training

 

The easiest way for you to do this yourself, and it is possible if you talk to the right people. You could go to meet someone who can do this, they will temporarily inflate your channels, push and bunch of qi in, and you will be able to push it out

 

Just note the effect is temporary.

 

You can see an example of that here

 

 

 

I may well be searching for something (a simple DIY experiment proving faqi) that can't be done. But a session as in the video wouldn't solve the problem. The first thing I thought of when viewing the video was: what is in the desk? This might be solved by asking permission to look inside, but I'm sure that I would come up with more doubts when at home. It's like forestofemptiness said:

 

Quote

And anyway, the gold standard isn't scientific testing, but self replication. Without being able to learn it yourself, there will always be doubts.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by wandelaar

[Shadow_self]

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

I may well be searching for something (a simple DIY experiment proving faqi) that can't be done. But a session as in the video wouldn't solve the problem. The first thing I thought of when viewing the video was: what is in the desk? This might be solved by asking permission to look inside, but I'm sure that I would come up with more doubts when at home. It's like forestofemptiness said:

 

 

 

I agree with @forestofemptinesstoo   100%

 

However Qi is something you work with over time

 

I think the earliest experience of it in the Nei gong process is Zifagong, and then you can access it and drag it inside your body once its "thick enough". Zifagong is weird

 

However if you wanted to feel that thickness and density, and to be able to move it around in your body, then whats in the video would do it. You of course could ask for it to be done in a different room to take away the desk thing. e

 

Unfortunately you couldn't do it DIY yourself, unless you took the route I mentioned above.  It would take years to develop the thickness and quantity of qi to do it

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

… the possibility and existence of the phenomenon …

methinks the noumenon is in the internal world  
 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Cobie

[kakapo]

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Well I respect your opinion also (genuinely) , and It is not that I don't think independent oversight cant be helpful.

 

Im just wondering exactly how it fits into what you are talking about regards "professional"

 

Scientists and doctors generally don't go around debunking people.

 

There is one specific subfield of psychology concerned with this, which is anomalistic psychology

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/weird-science/200909/anomalistic-psychology-what-is-it-and-why-bother

 

 

The thing here would be they take what appears to be "paranormal" and attempt to find a "normal" explanation via experimentation or other means. So this is the field of academia you'd really need to be in to be considered an "expert" or "professional" in regards to something like this

 

Have your group personally ever taken someone from this field with you to investigate such phenomena?

 

To me if you really wanted to have any kind of "proof" that this is not explainable by current understanding, then you'd first need to get the whole, yeah its not trickery thing done. I mean if you are talking about people who do this "professionally" then this is the realm they tend to operate in. The logical sequence would be after you've gotten such people to rule out "fraud" that you would then mobilize others to try and "explain" (IE things like an MRI we mentioned earlier)

 

The Idea of appeal to authority is less a jab and more a  nod to the fact that you guys collectively, I'm sure, have more experience meeting people and trying to investigate this specific phenomenon than any doctor, scientist or dare I say, anomalistic psychologist.

 

I mean your description of past experiences points to the idea you've all done this dozens of times, correct? 

 

So if lets say, you aren't bringing an anomalistic psychologist with you, who is basically a professional in relation to finding natural explanations for seemingly "paranormal" phenomena, it is rather hard to say you are looking for an expert opinion.

 

Moreover, if you've done this multiple times, and doctors/scientists have not, it feels more concerned with having a few people with PhD after there name who appear to be authorities (doctors/scientists) but in reality, have actually no real expertise in the area

 

PS: Im aware that there are several people from all manner of backgrounds who run these "paranormal" challenges that you mentioned. Majority of the time however, its not actually their field of expertise, which I am sure you know. As you can see from the boxed text above, they will typically dismiss your claim without even looking at the evidence, an experience you seem to be rather accustomed to. 

 

I am not sure if at this time we'd be interested in a parapsychologist or anomalistic psychologist, but thank you for your suggestion.

 

[kakapo]

15 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I don't see how this relates to my post. I never claimed illusionists to be paranormally gifted. I only suggested a physical experiment you could do. If influencing an electroscope would be easy for you and those of your group then it might also be interesting for others like myself to see if they can train themselves to do it. An electroscope is a very sensitive and relatively cheap instrument, so it could in principle be used in DIY experiments. However if you or people from your group can't influence an electroscope than it's useless for me to even try. That's why I asked.

 

I guess I really didn't finish my thought and left it hanging. My apologies.

So if you could create a protocol that would make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a stage magician like David Blane, David Copperfield, Chris Angel, and others to cheat, then this same protocol should also work on the subject in question.

There is no need to have a stage magician to rule out fraud if they themselves couldn't cheat the protocol.

[kakapo]

5 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Gee, I wonder why more people aren't signing up to be stripped, handcuffed, and probed by strangers in a hotel room. Seriously? I wouldn't do this to prove that I can speak English. The fact that you can't see how people would not be willing to sign up for such a thing is troubling and quite frankly undermines the credibility of these posts. 

 

Nor could one expect anyone who mastered fa qi to subject themselves to testing by amateurs anyway, or professional debunkers. No matter what you do, it won't be enough. In addition, you've already made it clear that you prefer to hide behind anonymous rumors and innuendoes rather than give people a chance to rebut your allegations.

 

And anyway, the gold standard isn't scientific testing, but self replication. Without being able to learn it yourself, there will always be doubts. Plus, who cares if some one else can do it, if you can't ever learn to do it yourself? 

 

 

John did it:

 

 

[wandelaar]

6 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

I guess I really didn't finish my thought and left it hanging. My apologies.

So if you could create a protocol that would make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a stage magician like David Blane, David Copperfield, Chris Angel, and others to cheat, then this same protocol should also work on the subject in question.

There is no need to have a stage magician to rule out fraud if they themselves couldn't cheat the protocol.

 

The problem is: I can't create such a protocol because I haven't got the expertise to do so. However if a skeptical (but nevertheless open minded) organization that has the expertise to rule out fraud to the best of their ability would find the electrical chi phenomenon to exist then I would reckon it a lot more likely that it does actually exist. And when other skeptical organizations afterwards are able to replicate the positive result than I would consider it even more likely that the electrical chi phenomenon exists. Physics has come to except even more strange phenomena in the fields of relativity theory and quantum mechanics so I have no doubt that after the first shock on seeing the electric chi phenomenon actually happen scientists would eventually accept the existence of electrical chi, that is: if there is a good repeatable experiment that shows it. But such a trajectory would take some years or even decades, and the best approach for me personally would be to have a simple experiment that I can do myself to take away my doubts. But such a simple experiment may well be impossible. And I don't want to invest years of training to acquire some capability that might not even exist and that I don't plan to use for any other purpose than convincing me of its existence anyway.

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

methinks the noumenon is in the internal world 

 

The noumenon or the phenomenon?

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noumenon

[wandelaar]

 

All we see in this video could have happened if they electrically charged up the subject who then simply moved the small pieces of paper. And charging up the subject could have been done by one of the guys laying hands on him wearing a concealed static electricity generator. Such doubts always arise in me afterwards. That's why these kind of demonstrations don't convince me. And I'm not even a stage magician: the experts would no doubt see some more loop holes. Maybe the subject is charged by something in his chair? The possibilities are endless...

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

I am not sure if at this time we'd be interested in a parapsychologist or anomalistic psychologist, but thank you for your suggestion.

 

 

I'm not suggesting you go and get one. Definitely not a parapsychologist. 

 

I  only mentioned anomalistic psychology, as that is the discipline that deals with finding natural explanations for what appears to be "unnatural phenomena". In other words, if they cannot find a  current natural explanation., well. It is a similar reason that that wandelaar recommended a magician (as its their professional job to trick people). In other words, these would be the people "qualified" to rule out fraud per se as per their professional activity, as they deal in the business of fraud/"paranormal"

 

This is why im confused by the language of "professional/expert". Based on what you are saying, it feels less like having a professional person rule out fraud, and more about having the testimony and video of people with PhD's/MD's in rather adjunct fields (biology/medicine/etc).  Now don't get me wrong, I understand where they would come in if you wanted to explore the phenomena after said fraud has been eliminated, but that is a step ahead of itself, if you see my point? 

 

It feels to me also, that if you did get lets say said psychologist/magician to explore the phenomona, you'd probably receive more skepticism, in the form of hardline materialists who are rather themselves stuck within their own cognitive biases, as opposed to being aware of what is mentioned above

 

(Though they do seem to LOVE James Randi, so perhaps Im leaping ahead of myself with that assertion) 

 

An

[Shadow_self]

15 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

All we see in this video could have happened if they electrically charged up the subject who then simply moved the small pieces of paper. And charging up the subject could have been done by one of the guys laying hands on him wearing a concealed static electricity generator. Such doubts always arise in me afterwards. That's why these kind of demonstrations don't convince me. And I'm not even a stage magician: the experts would no doubt see some more loop holes. Maybe the subject is charged by something in his chair? The possibilities are endless...

 

This is really why you'd need t go yourself, where you can control said variables

 

I'm not familiar with Jiang per se, not my teacher.

 

But to the best of my knowledge someone stripped him down and did all that stuff with him to rule out these kinds of explanations.

 

You'd need to ask those who were closer to him. He's been dead quite a while, though his successor still does the same kind of stuff

Edited February 8, 2023 by Shadow_self