The neophyte’s mind is like a dog’s tail

[dwai]

The neophyte’s mind is like a dog’s tail. 
 

For a while during explaining nonduality to a beginner, the beginner’s mind refuses to snap out of the tendency to embroil itself into the world of objects.
 

Every time you try to bring their mind to the subject-object distinction perspective, it snaps back to being embroiled in the world of objects. If we can find someone who has the ability to maintain focus on the subject-object duality distinction, they are well on their way to nondual understanding. I propose 4 “degrees” of presentness —

 

1. a part of the world, deeply entwined, unable to separate out self from the world with clarity or consistency.
2. apart from the world, as subject separate from the objects 
3. No “real” world, only appearances in awareness 
4. Awareness as Self, in which  the world an appearance. Awareness experiencing itself as the world. 

[forestofemptiness]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

For a while during explaining nonduality to a beginner, the beginner’s mind refuses to snap out of the tendency to embroil itself into the world of objects.

 

Well, there is the notion that perhaps these things should not be discussed without some preliminary meditation or other work.

 

On the one hand, the sages have often given the most direct teachings first, so that those with the requisite karma (or grace, or the proper causes and conditions, however we wish to put it) could "get it" immediately.

 

On the other hand, nonduality is often either inscrutable or easily intellectualized, such that it ether makes no sense, or people think they have sufficiently gotten it when there is still work to do. In this case, it may be useless, or even a great disservice. Accordingly, in many traditions, such things are withheld until there is sufficient preparation. 

 

I am always a bit curious about the "evangelical nonduality" I often see online, wherein people attempt to actively convert others, even those who are disinterested or resistant to the notion. 

 

 

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Well, there is the notion that perhaps these things should not be discussed without some preliminary meditation or other work.

Yes 

Quote

 

On the one hand, the sages have often given the most direct teachings first, so that those with the requisite karma (or grace, or the proper causes and conditions, however we wish to put it) could "get it" immediately.

Also yes 

Quote

 

On the other hand, nonduality is often either inscrutable or easily intellectualized, such that it ether makes no sense, or people think they have sufficiently gotten it when there is still work to do. In this case, it may be useless, or even a great disservice. Accordingly, in many traditions, such things are withheld until there is sufficient preparation. 

Agreed 

Quote

 

I am always a bit curious about the "evangelical nonduality" I often see online, wherein people attempt to actively convert others, even those who are disinterested or resistant to the notion. 

 

 

I don’t think of the phenomenon  in such terms. If someone is engaging with a contrary position wrt nonduality, then debates will occur.
 

it is also a fact that very rarely have online debates been more than just people shouting past each other. 

 

It doesn’t matter really — just a bunch of things that happen. Entertainment factor is certainly there.  
 

How many minds can one transform? One’s own mind is hard enough? 
 

 BTW OP was an observation I made during a discussion with a family member who is interested in nonduality. I kept trying to bring them to subject-object, and they kept getting entwined in the objects, forgetting the subject aspect.

Edited May 29, 2022 by dwai

[forestofemptiness]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I kept trying to bring them to subject-object, and they kept getting entwined in the objects, forgetting the subject aspect.

 

You mean you couldn't undo eons of conditioning in a few conversations? 

 

As a neophyte myself, I am always sensitive to the plights of the neophyte. I think Vivekananda describes the mind well as a monkey --- that has gotten drunk--- oh and stung by a scorpion--- and then possessed by a demon. And this was before computers and "smart" phones. 

 

It is interesting that Western psychology now has a term for this: cognitive fusion. 

[dwai]

34 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

You mean you couldn't undo eons of conditioning in a few conversations? 

It was more an acknowledgement of the eons of conditioning.  

34 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

As a neophyte myself, I am always sensitive to the plights of the neophyte. I think Vivekananda describes the mind well as a monkey --- that has gotten drunk--- oh and stung by a scorpion--- and then possessed by a demon. And this was before computers and "smart" phones. 
 

You're hardly what I’d call a neophyte. But the mind’s description is apropos. Another example I’ve heard is that of the mind being like a stubborn buffalo. You can’t beat it into submission, but dangle some green and tasty grass in front of its nose, and you can easily lead it to the corral and control it.  

34 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It is interesting that Western psychology now has a term for this: cognitive fusion. 

Interesting. I have to read up more on this. 

[forestofemptiness]

In addition to stability, there is also the dimension of penetrative depth. I am amazed by the sheer number of objects in increasing subtlety the mind can find and cling to--- mostly because this is what I did. From formed objects to formless ones, subtle ones, feelings and sensations. It is amazing how very deeply ingrained this object orientation is, and how it is reflected at various levels-- for example, as physical tension, energetic blockages, firm mental concepts, etc. 

 

Even our eyes are used to either looking at specific objects or scanning for objects rather than resting in a relaxed, open gaze. Which is why in many Buddhist traditions, simply keeping the eyes open, relaxed and not focused on anything is often a first step. 

 

There is probably an important intermediate level between 1 and 2--- being undistracted or collected. It is one thing to be completely caught up and swept away mindlessly, and another to have some initial presence even while still being caught up identifying as various objects.

Edited May 29, 2022 by forestofemptiness

[C T]

On 29/05/2022 at 8:06 AM, dwai said:

The neophyte’s mind is like a dog’s tail. 
 

For a while during explaining nonduality to a beginner, the beginner’s mind refuses to snap out of the tendency to embroil itself into the world of objects.
 

 

Its difficult likely due to such a tendency being latent - accumulated over lifetimes, and therefore, stubbornly ingrained. Not an easy thing to snap out of. 

 

In Buddhist thought, latent tendencies can explain much about how we are what we are - creatures of habit - how we are bound by habit, often unconsciously, and how unbinding can be effected. 

 

The approach towards understanding, culminating in samma sati (right mindfulness) begins with investigation into whats known as Akusala citta and Akusala cetasika. According to a reliable online Buddhist repository: 

 

12 akusala cittas are

• 8 lobha mula cittas or greediness rooted consciousness,
• 2 dosa mula cittas or hatred/ aversion rooted consciousness, and
• 2 moha mula cittas or ignorance/ delusion rooted consciousness.

Source: Dhamma Study: Introduction to the Dhamma

Immoral or unskillful consciousness.

See Citta.

Source: Dhamma Study: Cetasikas

Akusala citta and akusala cetasika are akusala dhammas, dhammas which are unskilful, unprofitable, unclean, impure. By akusala one harms oneself, other people or both oneself and other people.

Akusala citta is bound to arise more often than kusala citta because there have been countless akusala cittas in the past and thus the conditions for akusala have been accumulated.

There are twelve types of akusala cittas and they are classified according to their roots.

They are:

• 8 types of citta rooted in attachment, lobha-mula-citta
• 2 types of citta rooted in aversion, dosa-muIa-citta
• 2 types of citta rooted in ignorance, moha-mula-citta. 

The cittas rooted in attachment have ignorance, moha, and attachment, lobha, as their roots;
the cittas rooted in aversion have moha and aversion, dosa, as their roots;
the cittas rooted in moha have moha as their only root.

There is ignorance with each akusala citta.

 

We can see that attachment is the main culprit. In fact, its the first to take root from birth, which makes it all the more difficult to address. These roots, its difficult to know how vast or deep they are, but that should not be the aim for one who seeks to calm a dog with an overactive tail wag. Calmness comes from insight into causality, at first, followed by the antidote, which is to create the cause(s) for calmness to arise. 

 

 

From the same source: 

The subtle defilements (Skt. anusaya), do not arise with akusala citta, but they are latent tendencies; they lie dormant, they are like microbes invested in the body. We do not notice them, but they are there, accumulated in the citta; they are pertinacious and they condition the arising of defilements again and again. The inherent or latent tendencies have been accumulated from life to life. The first javana citta of every living being who is born are lobha-mulacittas, cittas rooted in attachment. These are conditioned by the latent tendencies accumulated in the past.

 

*Javana citta - When we like what we see there are javana-cittas which are lobha-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) and these may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling.

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa referred to two categories of Maya acting on an individual. Avidya Maya and vidya Maya. Mostly people are under the influence of avidya Maya (thus leading to further embroilment  into samsara). This has to be transformed into vidya Maya (seeker’s mind, strong dispassion for the worldly things, and strong desire for liberation). Under the influence of vidya Maya, liberation becomes possible.