Getting things done?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ Rocky Lionmouth

 

I have saved your post, you made some good points to think about. 

 

 

Cheers, thanks for that and putting up with my shenanigans

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I think that's a great idea.  But, in all honesty, I do see a paradox in your message.  You say, "loosen up my approach to life." Yes! I think all people can do with a little bit of this... But then you say "interesting experiment to test the practical real-life value".... This sounds to be more over-intellectualizing it...

 

My idea would be this: Forget the practical application, forget figuring out the philosophy.  Forget it all and don't really try to do anything.  Just be in the moment and see what happens. That's a great experiment, but you can't look for any outcome. Simplify your life, in as many ways as you can.  Turn the TV off while you eat.  Focus on chewing.  Sit alone for 15 minutes a day and just breathe and be still.  Don't try to do anything.  When you hear people arguing about politics, study their body language. Don't listen to the words.  Observe them, but don't interact.  Spend time in nature.

 

The "Philosophy of  the Tao" will naturally come to you, eventually.  Then you won't even need to study Lao Tzu.  You can read the books and say, "Oh, I know what he's talking about here." 

 

Just some ideas...

 

Sounds like Zen practice to me. I did that some time. One hour per day, just sitting. Problem is I don't have the will power to do everything at the same time. Now I am concentrating on the Taoist way of life, and so there doesn't remain any time and energy to continue my daily meditation,  taking a walk in the evening, etc. The television and radio are already gone, so that's no distraction either.

 

I do think meditation will have to become a regular part of my life to fully apply and appreciate the Taoist way of life. But I don't believe that will be enough. If that were the case Zen and Taoism in practice would be indistinguishable, but they have a decidedly different flavor. It's like a different meal cooked from the same ingredients. And I think it's not in the spiritual core but in the practical application that the difference is to be found.

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[Fa Xin]

24 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Sounds like Zen practice to me. I did that some time. One hour per day, just sitting. Problem is I don't have the will power to do everything at the same time. Now I am concentrating on the Taoist way of life, and so there doesn't remain any time and energy to continue my daily meditation,  taking a walk in the evening, etc. The television and radio are already gone, so that's no distraction either.

 

I do think meditation will have to become a regular part of my life to fully apply and appreciate the Taoist way of life. But I don't believe that will be enough. If that were the case Zen and Taoism in practice would be indistinguishable, but they have a decidedly different flavor. It's like a different meal cooked from the same ingredients. And I think it's not in the spiritual core but in the practical application that the difference is to be found.

 

 

Thanks for your reply. 

Just curious what about my post makes you think about zen? The concentrating on your breathing part?

 

you can replace that with tai chi practice if you’d like. Really, it’s all the same as the context I’m putting it in. It’s all aimed at stopping the internal chatter and just kind of being in the moment. 

 

 

[steve]

On 4/18/2018 at 7:27 AM, wandelaar said:

I still have a hard time dealing with concrete problems in a Taoist manner. That's not as it should be, I know. The solutions should come naturally. But that's not the way it works for me, I have to first understand the approach and then let it sink in. Only after that can it become second nature. So that's the approach followed in the topic: find rational cues for my unconscious to play with in the hope of stimulating it to come up with Taoist solutions to the concrete problems of life. I like to hear what other members of this forum think about it.

 

Some ideas to start with:

 

- Getting things done in a Taoist manner  means not focusing on the supposed "things" in the situation and not focusing on your own "doing" but instead on the relations between the things and empty spaces (or non-things) and on the natural evolution of the processes involved.

 

 

Haven't had time to read beyond the OP but will do so later as this is a wonderful topic.

 

My initial reaction is:

Daoist sages made no effort to act as a "Daoist"

Sages have one thing in common - they open up and listen to a deeper and more subtle intelligence than intellect and rational thought. The rhythms they dance to are that of the natural universe, not the conditioned mind.

 

So I would suggest trying to let go of wanting to do things as a Daoist would do things and see if it's possible to connect to something deeper and more subtle than your thoughts. The natural world works just fine without trying to be anything. Trying is the antithesis of Daoist action.

 

Ways to do this are mind-body practices like qigong, taijiquan, yoga, meditation, or simply spending a lot of time in nature or with animals. The key is to not get stuck following the past, anticipating the future, or trying to change or analyze the present. Simply let yourself rest in what is, as it is. Settle into being connected to what is going on here and now, in the body, in your relationships, in your work, and in your environment.

 

Planning and trying to be Daoist is far too contrived and inauthentic, I don't think you'll find the way in that direction.

[wandelaar]

25 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Thanks for your reply. 

Just curious what about my post makes you think about zen? The concentrating on your breathing part?

 

you can replace that with tai chi practice if you’d like. Really, it’s all the same as the context I’m putting it in. It’s all aimed at stopping the internal chatter and just kind of being in the moment.

 

See:

http://www.stonewaterzen.org/about-zen/shikantaza/

But I have no problem with Zen meditation, and I plan to return to my daily practice of zen meditation as soon as possible.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

Thanks. 

 

Since you’ve already done breath counting, you can try “quiet sitting”. Just sitting in the moment and not doing anything. Just being. That’s probably more Taoist anyways 😊

[wandelaar]

22 minutes ago, steve said:

Planning and trying to be Daoist is far too contrived and inauthentic, I don't think you'll find the way in that direction.

 

I agree with that. So my plan is to give both reason and intuition their place. In this topic I am trying to capture in words what are the basic principles of the Taoist approach to life. Even Lao tse and Chuang tse tried to do just that, so I guess it's not wrong headed to try to do so. Next phase would be learning the principles by heart. Followed by forgetting all about it.

 

Sounds crazy, but the idea is to let the unconscious mind play with the discovered principles as it sees fit, but only after the rational mind has done all it could in figuring out what the principles actually are. Frankly I don't believe there is nothing more to Taoism than getting rid of the unnatural remains of our education and upbringing. Even Lao tse according to legend read every book he could lay his hands on before he began advising against bookish knowledge.  And Chuang tse's butcher first had to become thoroughly acquainted with animal anatomy (in the practical sense) before he could effortless cut up an ox. The spiritual core of all sages may be the same, but their practical behavior bears the stamp of their particular religious background. And I see nothing wrong with that. It's exactly the way Taoism differs from other ways that attracts me.

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

No. Not at all. I am not saying that.

 

What I am saying is that you (and me, and everyone else) have assumptions about what to do and how to do it. Theses assumptions are so foundational to your being (and my being, and everyone else's being) that they are axiomatic. They are taken as facts - unquestioned. But they are not facts. They are assumptions.

 

These assumptions must be observed. They must be questioned. And ultimately they must be unlearned.

 

You are right about there being such assumptions. I had to think hard about what you were talking about, but then I realized that it still happens that somebody questions something that for me is almost axiomatic. Then when there are new arguments brought forward I will reconsider the assumption. I don't see how we could live completely without assumptions (at least not as a human being) but one could perhaps live without unrecognized assumptions.