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Daoism and Neoplatonism

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Is anyone sufficiently versed in both traditions and their doctrines to speak on the compatibility or harmony possible between Neoplatonism (especially of Plotinus but also in general) and Daoism? How close to each other do both traditions seem to be? Do you think a Daoist would benefit from studying Plotinus and Neoplatonic material?


Is anyone aware of any articles or books which compares, contrasts, or speaks of the relation between Daoism and Neoplatonism?


Discussing Daoism in relation to the Western traditions most influenced or closely related to Neoplatonism, such as Hermeticism and Western alchemy, is also welcome.

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Plato lied about Pythagorean philosophy - latter is compatible with Taoism.


So basically Plato used Pythagorean philosophy - twisted it and created a "rotten root" - and from that sprung the "Greek Miracle" based on "alogon" or irrational magnitudes.


The NeoPlatonists so never escaped this rotten root that Plato created - along with Archytas.


The problem is very deep and elusive because it is built into the connection between phonetic language as symmetric logic and then geometric as a materialistic "contained" infinity.


So Taoism is based on complementary opposites - and so the common connection is through music theory.


In Taoism the Perfect Fifth is yang and the Perfect Fourth is yin.


But for Plato - this was changed from complementary opposite harmonics - into a "contained" infinity.


So Plato chose the "limited" over the "unlimited."


And so Plato argued that each citizen is valued at 9/8 which is the major tone in music - but that each citizen must be "compromised" for the good of the state.


So then 9/8 cubed is the compromise in order to create a 12-note music scale that is geometrically logarithmic - or evenly divided - and so 9/8 cubed is three major tones as the tritone or square root of two.


This 9/8 value is achieved by squaring the Perfect Fifth - yang as 3/2 so it is 9/4. But that is then halved or divided back into the original scale as a 9/8 value.


The reason that the yang and yin are complementary opposites is because they violate the commutative principle that was used by Plato for the above compromise of the citizens system for the good of the state.


So 3/2 as yang is the geometric value C to G whereas 2/3 is the perfect fifth yang as subharmonic but it's geometric value is C to F.


That subharmonic is not allowed by Plato since it violates the symmetric phonetic language logic of commutative math for a "contained" infinity.


And so the C to F Perfect Fifth subharmonic had to be doubled as 4/3 as C to F.


So for the Taoists - this was called the "infinite spiral of fifths" - since the perfect fifth and fourth are complementary opposites but they can not be contained - they stay as natural harmonics.


For the West by doubling the C to F subharmonic as a Perfect Fifth 2/3 - it was instead changed into a Perfect Fourth as C to F harmonic.


The reason it has to be used as a harmonic and not a subharmonic is because the common division of the harmonic is the ONE - and so the one is doubled as the harmonic - whereas 2/3 does not have a division of 1 - rather 3. So then 4/3 is used by "doubling" for the Perfect 4th - even though it is not found in the harmonic series.


If this all sounds rather obscure - I have all the references in my blog post.



Music theorist Jamie James points out that not only, as is well known, did Plato have a disdain for music and its uncontrollable social power, but he was hostile “towards mousike (which it ought to be born in mind, meant any human activity governed by the Muses).” James cites researcher Cornford, who remarks how in Timaeus Plato defines the concept of the World Soul by the Pythagorean ratios but he stops at the end of the fifth octave overtone, where the overshooting comma of Pythagoras occurs – the difference between six whole tones and the octave.  This is because Plato was relying on his Lambda to “contain” the comma of Pythagoras created by the difference between the natural perfect fifths and the octaves – 3 does not go into 2 evenly.  According to Cornford Plato's choice of the Pythagorean Limited over the Unlimited (the prime dialectic of Pythagoras) was a reflection of Plato's perception of a closed system reality.  James, Harmony of the Spheres, pp. 46-47, citing E.M. Cornford, Plato's Cosmology (London: Routledge, K. Paul, 1937).





The Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth are taught as the “circle of fifths” in Western music theory but in reality they are the infinite spiral of fifths.  “A true (just) perfect 5th contains no beating, because it is a true 3:2 ratio. An equal tempered perfect 5th contains beats but they are not that ‘rough’ sounding, because the beating is slower than with, say, an equal tempered major 3rd, which sounds very rough and out of tune.” Online comment citing Harry Partch, "Genesis of a Music"

So by having “no beats” the Tetrad-Tai Chi tap into the infinite spiral of energy where there is no fundamental note but rather an infinite listening process. When we get into time-frequency uncertainty this will be clarified.

People mistakenly claim Plato promoted music as the secret harmony of the soul but this is not true! “Having discarded music and gymnastics, Socrates proposes considering the science of “number and calculation” (522 C6-7)…. The link between the correct use of mathematics and the capacity of this discipline to lead to an extrasensible dimension recalls the link between the correct use of the science of harmony (of music in general) and the potential of this art to establish a contact with the soul and supersensible harmony.” Francesco Pelosi, Plato on Music, Soul and Body (Cambridge University Press, 2010), p. 118.






“The sound of square roots
Take two strings, one sounding an octave higher than the other, so that their lengths are in the ratio 2:1. Then find the geometric ratio (also called the mean proportional) between these strings, the length x at which 2:x is the same proportion as x:1. This means that 2:x = x:1; cross-multiplying this gives x squared =2. Thus, the “ratio” needed is √2:1 ≈ 1.414, in modern decimals. This is close to the dissonant interval called the tritone, which later was called the “devil in music,” namely the interval composed of three equal whole steps each of ratio 9:8. The tritone is thus 9:8 × 9:8 × 9:8 = 729:512 ≈ 1.424.” from “Scandal of the Irrational” M.I.T. Press. pdf link here
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“Since 9 actually reduces to a wholetone of 9/8, its cube will reduce to (9/8)³ = 729/512, a Pythagorean approximation to the square root of two, a problem which fascinated Socrates in the marriage allegory.” Ernest McClain, The Pythagorean Plato: Prelude to the Song Itself (Nicholas-Hays, 1978), p. 36 Again this was not really a “Pythagorean” approximation, as I will document below – but it was the cover-up by Plato of real Pythagorean teachings. In fact as sound healer John Beaulieau of Biosonics, Inc. discovered the sacrum of the body, origin of the word sacred, creates a Perfect Fifth interval ratio as the key healing ratio: “For example, the distance between your extended toe to the top of your sacrum relative to the distance from the top of your sacrum to the top of your head is also 3::2.”






Economics Professor Michael Hudson concurs about the Devil’s Interval: “The worst problem in tuning occurs in the interval of three whole tones, e.g., between C and F#/Gb in the “natural” untempered methods of tuning. If the ratio of the octave is 2:1, then the ratio of C to F# represents the square root of two — an irrational number. (Burkert [1972:441] notes that the harmonic mean discovered in the context of Pythagorean music theory has a major use precisely in approximating the square root.)” Michael Hudson’s essay, “Music as an Analogy for Economic Order in Classical Antiquity” in Jürgen Backhaus (ed.), Karl Bücher. Theory, History, Anthropology, Non-Market Economies (Marburg:Metropolis Verlag, 2000): pp. 113-35 citing Burkert, Walter (1972), Lore and Science in Ancient Pythagoreanism (Harvard University Press, 1972). So this philosophy of reality not only was the basis for the Greek Miracle creating western science but also the elite control of the technology – justified still by the logarithmic fake Pythagorean cover-up. “The necessity of tempering pure intervals, defined by the ratio of integers, is one of the great themes of Plato’s Republic. In his allegorical form, “citizens” modeled on the tones of the scale must not demand “exactly what they are owed” but must keep in mind “what is best for the city.” Ernest McClain, The Myth of Invariance: The origins of the Gods, Mathematics and Music, from the Rg Veda to Plato (Nicholas-Hays, 1976), p. 11. 
Economics Professor Hudson clarifies McClain’s promotion of Plato’s fake Pythagorean cover-up: “Pythagoras became the patron saint of the most anti-democratic clubs. They used the principles of musical harmony as a patina of pseudo-science to give intellectual legitimacy to a movement whose worldly consequences were anything but harmonious. The Pythagorean clubs became a network of civic cults rising above the local sphere to which most clubs related. There seems to have been some connection with the Delphi temple (the name Pythagoras means “voice of Pythia,” the snake-goddess of Delphi and its oracle). They have been likened to the Free Masons, in that they served as a kind of Council of Foreign Relations or New World Order…. Archytas [the collaborator of Plato] developed the musical scale into a political metaphor for the scales of justice. What gave music this imagery of social balance and just proportion was the ability of its mathematics of harmonic (“geometric”) proportions to serve as an analogy for how inequities of wealth and status rendered truly superior men equal in proportion to their virtue — which tended to reflect their wealth. By this circular logic the wealthy were enabled to rationalize their hereditary dominance over the rest of the population.”

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Peter Kingsley, a Ph.D. philosopher, had his thesis on Pythagorean philosophy published by Oxford University Press in 1997, Ancient Philosophy, Mystery and Magic. In that book Kingsley says: “By the time of Plato and Aristotle, the doors of understanding were closed.... Argument [became] more important than appreciation, reinterpretation, an easy substitute for understanding.... [The devolution] destroyed the mythical dialectic.” p. 108, Kingsley continued his research with more popular-focus books like In the Dark Places of Wisdom, and Reality.





Borzacchini states the foundation of science, due to these paradoxes, is a “pre-established disharmony.” Again the secret is the role of music theory at the origins of the Greek Miracle, the discovery or invention of the Pythagorean Theorem based on incommensurability. To quote Borzacchini again: “Hence Arithmetic is the source of that preestablished harmony between reality and language that we can not not believe after almost four centuries of astonishing achievements, but we must even say that, neither tendentially, syntactic representation can thoroughly mirror reality, become someway iconic. And this because it is marked in its basic principles with a preestablished disharmony, that is even its hidden evolutive principle.”





The Yellow Emperor, Huang Ti, in 2700 BCE, told Ling Lun to create the “infinite spiral of fifths” music tuning based on the Perfect Fourth music interval as yin and the Perfect Fifth musical interval as yang, according to the 240 BCE book, Lü-shih ch’un-ch’iu (The Spring and Autumn of Lü Pu-Wei). Empirically the frequencies are infinite.  “Before the idea of frequency existed, however, the same relation was expressed simply in terms of length, the length of a resonating agent multiplied by 2/3 being equivalent to the frequency multiplied by 3/2. The length of a zither string, then, multiplied by 2/3 gives a note which when struck is a perfect fifth higher than its fundamental. This is the first step (or ) in a process which evolves an unending spiral of notes. The length of the resonating agent which sounds the perfect fifth is then multiplied by 4/3, the resulting note being a fourth below the perfect fifth . . .” Joseph Needham, Science and Civilization in China, Volume 4, Part I, pp. 172–173.





"The 'demusicalization' of the theory of proportions by Plato is shocking." (Borzacchini, p. 281 of his academic article on the topic,  Incommensurability, Music and Continuum: A Cognitive Approach) ...."...this 'removal' seems really astonishing!" Then Borzacchini pulls out his trump card: "However, I think I can prove that in the Platonic Academy there was a trace of this earlier approach, with a tight connection between music, numerical means and similarity, and without any reference to geometric figures, such as square or pentagon." Borzacchini, again, is revealing a cover-up: "Why these silences? And why this sudden and radical change?" (hiding the secret musical origins of western science!). "Why this sharp change? I think the first reason was that the musical proof was only negative, whereas the geometrical approach allowed the effective construction of

incommensurable magnitudes."

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“Between heaven and earth, they say, there is perfect harmony. Now, 3 is the emblem of heaven, 2 is the symbol of earth. If two sounds are in the proportion of 3 to 2 [the perfect fifth interval], they will harmonise perfectly as heaven and earth. All the tubes were cut on the same principle, … The lüs [notes] were divided into two classes, the yang lüs and the yin lüs… Everything in Nature belongs to one of these two grand categories, from whose combinations and reciprocal action results all that exists or takes place in the universe.” J.A. Van Aalst, Chinese Music (Shanghai: Chinese Imperial Customs Service, 1933), p. 8.





Taoist qigong master Michael Winn agrees with me about the secret music origins of inner alchemy paranormal training: “But the fifth is a given of the Chinese pentatonic scale (possibly symbolized by five dots in the center) and is omnipresent in Daoist cosmology as the first female (2) and first male (3) number, as cited previously in verse 42 of the Daodejing.”





So 2/3x as F to C is the subharmonic not the wavelength of C to G as 3/2 frequency. 2/3x subharmonic is then doubled - even though 3/2 is the frequency as the inverse of wavelength – 2/3x is not the frequency as the inverse of wavelength because it has to be doubled as 4/3x as C to F, the Perfect Fourth.  We have just violated the “Law of Pythagoras”




2/3 is not allowed in Platonic harmonics - and why?



So that means the length value starts at zero to one if the fraction is less than one but we have to realize that in this case zero does not exist because the 2/3x is actually a subharmonic! 2/3 the length of what? Of an infinite string - that's what. As Daniel Bournelli's competitor for the harmonics of the vibrating string in the 18th century, D’Alembert relied on Rameau who did believe in infinite overtones from the one vibrating string – although both D’Alembert and Rameau realized there was no actual physical vibrating string to this philosophy – instead it was pure mathematics.





The empirical truth of Western symmetric logic using the phonetic “attic” alphabet requires a cover-up with the ratios as only greater than one. To quote an expert: “Any who doubt that the musical ratios are all of greater inequality, i.e., that the antecedent or first term in each is greater than the consequent or second term, should consult Archytas DK 47 B 2. This Fragment requires that the ratios be of this form if the assertions about the three means [arithmetic, harmonic and geometric] are to be true. Accordingly, the ratios assigned to the octave, fifth, fourth and minor sixth, must be 2:1, 3:2, 4:3 and 8:5, and not 1:2, 2:3, 3:4 and 5:8, respectively, as Mosshammer and others would have them.” Alan C. Bowen, "The Minor Sixth (8:5) in Early Greek Harmonic Science," The American Journal of Philology, 1978. (my emphasis).






I am asked online – is an octave a doubling of Hertz or not? I have pointed out that this is precisely the “bait and switch” issue that was covered up:  Instead of an inversion of the frequency and wavelength there has to be a doubling of the fraction first to hide the non-commutative relation of the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth. Music is in time not space – any musician knows that the G to C interval is a Perfect Fourth – not a Perfect Fifth.  So the 200/300 Hertz interval is 66 Hertz while the 300/200 hertz interval is 150 hertz. So that 66 Hertz is F to 100 Hertz as C – a Perfect Fifth subharmonic. 150 Hertz is the Perfect Fifth as C to G. The same C and so it's non-commutative (2/3 as F to C and 3/2 as C to G).
Now the question is repeated: Is there a doubling of octaves or not with frequency? O.K. so for Hertz again on the Harmonic Series – it is 3/2 since the “root” frequency is 100 Hertz and it is the “root” frequency that is doubled as the octave; So then G to C as 4/3 can’t be used as the Perfect Fourth; It is inconsistent with the “root” frequency as 1 or 100 hertz. The 3 is not the “double” of 1 or 2. In other words in the same scale if G to C is 4/3 then why is G to C as 4/3 in the harmonic series not allowed for defining the Perfect Fourth?  So instead the subharmonic of 1 as the Harmonic Series or 100 Hertz is used as 2/3x or C to F in the opposite direction – a longer wavelength. So we can just ignore that it is C to F as the Perfect Fifth in one direction while it's C to G as the perfect Fifth in the other direction?
I have been asked if this meant that the subharmonic was a subset of 3/2x and I answered yes. Harmonics are perceived as pitch intervals and not just Hertz frequency. So it’s been stated then that using “F” as the new root frequency for doubling the octave you still get – close to, but not quite the doubling of the octave of 100 hertz as C. Let’s check the Hertz: 132 plus 66 = 198 Hertz. Yep it's almost the same as 200 Hertz. It’s two Hertz off – exactly the same difference as the error of time-frequency uncertainty with the truth of the “infinite spiral of fifths.” I’ll repeat from above, Physicist Iori Fujita: “But even Δt is 1.000 sec, the bandwidth remains about 2 Hz.”
See - this for Archytas Greek Miracle equation of commutative means - for Plato's harmonics.


See J.B. Kennedy’s paper, “Plato’s Forms, Pythagorean Mathematics, and Stichometry,” Apeiron: A Journal for Ancient Philosophy and Science, 2010, pdf link: “Greek theorists like Plato’s correspondent Archytas constructed measures of relative musical harmony.” Carl A. Huffman, Archytas of Tartenum: Pythagorean, Philosopher and Mathematician King (Cambridge University Press, 2005). Huffman argues that Plato and Archytas were host-friends and competitive colleagues – with Archytas stressing the practical side of Pythagorean harmonics while Plato emphasized the pure philosophy of Pythagorean Number. Both Plato and Archytas were relying on Philolaus and therefore were not “orthodox” Pythagoreans.





To quote David Fowler, author of The Mathematics of Plato’s Academy (Oxford University Press) “...the manipulations of music theory seem to depend fundamentally on the operation of compounding, an operation which seems to pose some serious problems for mathematicians. My purely speculative that music theory might plausibly give some help with this problem.”



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Tai Chi symbol as asymmetric complementary opposites of music harmonics.




Plato's Lambda for his World Soul based on the logarithmic squaring of number for a "contained" infinity.





The Perfect Fourth is not made from the harmonic overtones since the fundamental tone as the denominator does not allow a 4/3 fraction. In other words the harmonics as ratios are the rational numbers so 1 is the fundamental tone, 2/1 is the octave and 3/2 is the Perfect Fifth but 4/3 does not use 1 or 2 as the denominator - the denominator has to be either the fundamental tone or the same note doubled as the fundamental tone. This is the heart of the matter - what exactly is the fundamental tone? Again I am not referring to a "reference frequency." A composer wrote a music theory article titled, "The Phantom Tonic," and in an attempt to analyze this conundrum states: "Not a fourth above, but a fifth below: the phantom tonic." here Tonic meaning the fundamental tone.

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Thanks for this, its pretty fascinating and I was completely unaware of the topic you are discussing prior to encountering it here. 


That said, I was mostly thinking about the relationship and compatibility of Neoplatonic and Daoist metaphysics, ontology, soteriology, cosmology, mystical practices, etc. In short, their core mystical or esoteric view in relation to man, the Absolute, man's ultimate destiny and goal, how to approach the ultimate, etc. Are you aware (or is anyone else) of any information relating to this material?

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Neoplatonism tends to be a mind-only thing in its modern and typical historical forms. It tends to get you to think about how reality works without deeply interacting with the things that make reality work.


Yes . . . that's true for the original Neoplatonism of Plotinus.


But it's best subsequent formulation is through Sufism . . . which adopted the Neoplatonic ontology and metaphysics in whole and DID integrate it with methods for "deeply interacting with things".


IMO, Sufism is the pre-eminent spiritual practice of the West . . . as Taoism is of the East.


(BTW:  Plato (375 BC) and Plotinus (250 AD) are two different people, in case anyone is confusing them . . .)

Edited by Lataif

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That said, I was mostly thinking about the relationship and compatibility of Neoplatonic and Daoist metaphysics, ontology, soteriology, cosmology, mystical practices, etc. In short, their core mystical or esoteric view in relation to man, the Absolute, man's ultimate destiny and goal, how to approach the ultimate, etc. Are you aware (or is anyone else) of any information relating to this material?


Yes, definitely. Here's an example:


This compares Taoism to Sufism (which is the most sophisticated historical version of Neoplatonism) . . .

Edited by Lataif
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Neo-Platonism merged with Hermeticism. Hermeticism is a kind of universal science that includes philosophy, psychology, cosmology, astrology, alchemy, magic, numerology etc much like Daoism does.


A more apt comparison might then be made between Daoism and Hermeticism. The two systems have many parallels, although they are often approaching their topics from somewhat different angles.

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Thanks for this, its pretty fascinating and I was completely unaware of the topic you are discussing prior to encountering it here. 


That said, I was mostly thinking about the relationship and compatibility of Neoplatonic and Daoist metaphysics, ontology, soteriology, cosmology, mystical practices, etc. In short, their core mystical or esoteric view in relation to man, the Absolute, man's ultimate destiny and goal, how to approach the ultimate, etc. Are you aware (or is anyone else) of any information relating to this material?


The information I posted is based on the structural trajectory of Platonic philosophy so NeoPlatonic has the same trajectory - de facto.


For example John Scotus Erigena was a 9th Century Benedictine Monk who was also a Platonist - so a NeoPlatonist - he got his Platonic philosophy from the Moors, from Islamic philosophy.


It's very difficult for us, as Westernized peoples, to even acknowledge the issue at hand.


I posted several references to mathematicians.


The issue is a metaphysics based on mathematics that comes from wrong music theory.


The wrong music theory is covered up - no one learns about that.


Only math professor Luigi Borzacchini has exposed it. I've corresponded with him.


As he says - Western math is based on a pre-established deep disharmony.


And so what is that exactly?


Well look at Western mathematicians? The structure of math is symmetric logic.


Yes the Brahmin Vedic math is also based on symmetric logic.


In fact this influenced the origins of the Greek Miracle.


So to say that Taoism is like Vedic philosophy is actually wrong.


Taoism is like the "three gunas" of India - the oldest philosophy of India - from the African Dravidian culture of India.


So then from the 9th Century this NeoPlatonic philosophy was spread around Europe as the foundation for modern science by Marsilio Ficino.


Professor Michael J. B. Allen in his essay “Marsilio Ficino: Daemonic Mathematics and the

Hypotenuse of the Spirit” published in the M.I.T. Press book Natural Particulars (1999)



In exercising these geometrical powers, the geometer-magus would be drawing on

the computational and manipulative skills that Ficino and the later Platonic

tradition he inherited [John Scotus Erigena] had already assigned to the daemons.





Ficino clearly rejoiced in some at least of the figural extensions (with the puns

this terms implied) of the Pythagorean mathematics that Timaeus is propounding

here. For his own Timeaus commentary explores the implications and arrives at an

interpretation that identified the Soul itself as the exemplary triangle, its triple

powers corresponding to the three angles and three sides of the archetypal

geometric figure.





Allen emphasizes the structural nature of this Freemasonic control: “the notion of roots and

powers—that is, of self-division and self-multiplication—suggests that daemonic agency is ever

present in the realm of mathematics.” Allen concludes: “An awareness of this mathematical

Platonism (dominated by geometrical ratios) is surely called for if we are ever to establish with

confidence the valencies governing early modern science, its artful exploration of Browne’s

‘things artificial.’”


We all get "initiated" into Freemasonic-Platonic philosophy taught as normal mathematics in high school


But by 10th grade I had already focused my life on music training and I had already studied Pythagorean philosophy.


So when I was taught the Pythagorean Theorem - I knew it was a logical lie and that it was secretly based on the wrong music theory.


So then Professor David F. Noble traces the NeoPlatonic philosophy of John Scotus Erigena up through modern science:



Professor David F. Noble has traced the modern science institutions to Freemasonic philosophy.

Noble in his stunning book The Religion of Technology (1997) writes

If the Freemasons were among the earliest advocates of industrialization, perhaps

their most lasting and important, and heretofore unexamined, role was as

midwives in the birth of the latest incarnation of spiritual men, the engineer. For

engineering emerged as much out of Masonry as it did out of the military (indeed,

the military itself was rife with Masonry).



so what did Erigena teach?



professor Joscelyn

Godwin: Godwin notes in his book Harmonies of Heaven and Earth that Erigena “first considers

the planetary harmony in terms of speed. His scale of speeds is idiosyncratic: a compromise

between the two varieties (Moon-fast and Moon-slow).” Erigena states in his “Commentary on

Martianus Capella,” considered by Godwin to be Erigena’s most important work, “The sound of

the Sun is between Saturn and the sphere, like the mese between the aforesaid two strings.”


Basically in real Pythagorean philosophy - the number 2 is female or yin (the same as Taoism) and the number 3 is male (yang) - same as Taoism.


And so Orthodox Pythagoreans only used the PErfect Fifth (yang) and Perfect Fourth (yin) and the octave - for their metaphysics and their energy training.


So there had to be nine years of silence in meditation - called "incubation."


Peter Kingsley who did his Ph.D. in Pythagorean philosophy - he traces it to the influence of Asian shamanism on Western Asia - Turkey and vice versa. I haven't read his latest book - but he is drawing a direct lineage between these traditions.


Turkey does the same with the focus on pentatonic music as an influence on pentatonic music in China.


So in the West we are based on a visual definition of time as wavelength - this is a very deep mind control philosophy so that it's like the water we breath but don't notice.


So people say "that's all very interesting, but....."


That means you just didn't even listen to what is being said.




That's the mind control in action.


As for the trajectory of NeoPlatonic philosophy - it is apocalyptic of course.


I exposed this from my masters thesis research where I accidentally discovered an elite plan that corroborated my own research.



Professor Abraham Seidenberg documents this “squaring of the circle”

Pythagorean Theorem Freemasonic sacrifice ritual as an altar geometry technology used by

Vedic Brahmans in 3,000 B.C.E. The matrifocal circle had to be “squared” and this new Solar

ritual sacrifice altar was based on the same mathematics to find the center of the circle for chariot

wheels – thereby expanding the tantric empires through warfare.


Yeah so - John Scotus Erigena is stating that the lunar calendar needs to be a subset of the Solar calendar based on this "alogon" geometry - what would be formalized as logarithmic math.


But the thing is this trajectory was created by the "divide and average" math of the Brahmins as well - it goes against the complementary opposite harmonics of the Dravidian "three gunas" - and the Tai Chi and the Pythagorean Tetrad.


So on Plotinus - he was translated and popularized by Ficino who based his NeoPlatonic philosophy on Plotinus.


And so Ficino's philosophy was derived from Plotinus as much as it was derived from John Scotus Erigena and those two from Plato, of course.


There is no evading the real trajectory of Platonic philosophy - it is in no sense real spiritual training because it is based on the wrong foundation of a "contained" infinity through forms - geometric irrational magnitude.


I would say that the focus on Aristotle in the middle ages was more spiritual in the sense that Aristotle was against the Platonic mathematics - specifically the concept of "negative infinity" as zero.


But as I have documented - the power of NeoPlatonic philosophy is precisely in this mathematical focus on irrational magnitude - as was popularized by Ficino and then became the foundation for modern science - it was first rooted by Archytas and Plato.

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Thus the Greeks could not conceive as a number as an entity in itself,

but only as the result of counting a concrete set of things, and of course, one can never complete (or actualize) the

counting of an infinite number of things (that is, in time).” As Lawrence Gage goes on to explain, infinity tied to

matter was considered negative infinity while infinity tied to pure Platonic mathematical form was considered

positive infinity as God. Professor Lawrence Gage, “Comprehending the Infinite,” Real Physics, 2007.





Till recently it was thought the Greeks only used the concept of “the potential infinity” since

Aristotle had rejected apeiron (pure number) as negative infinity by Plato. Archimedes applied

the concept of logos or magnitude ratios to the pure geometric or physical “center of gravity”

proof. This was previously unknown about the ancient Greeks – Archimedes actually used the

modern concept of “actual infinity” found in calculus. Yet when Archimedes argued for an

equality of infinite multitudes with an equality of infinite irrational magnitudes he was building

on the earlier discovery of the alogon by Archytas.





Follow this a bit further. We start at Syracuse in the third century BC when all we

can do is hang a triangle from the ceiling. But, we follow the line of thought long

enough and we are able by the twentieth century to launch a rocket to the Moon

and to explode an atomic bomb. All the way, following the same principle, we

apply the power of reasoning to the universe, and the universe follows logic. This

is the principle discovered by Archimedes. This is science in action.


Reviel Netz and William Noel, The Archimedes Codex: How a Medieval Prayer Book Is Revealing

The True Genius of Antiquity’s Greatest Scientist (De Capo Press, 2007), p. 147.


And so then we can trace the same twisting of meaning of Taoism - just as in the West Pythagorean philosophy was twisted.



“What Plato is careful to point out is that such intending is always accompanied

by the experience of poverty and need and emptiness, which is figured as the feminine in this

passage, as are many equivalent experiences in Laozi.” Shankelman neglects to point out that

Plato twisted the meaning of the female infinite void – the Cosmic Mother – into a negative

infinity as a lie – a “containment” -- through the use of alogon (the irrational number geometry).





Professor Bruce Lincoln documents that Plato lied about the meaning of metis, which, as

Professor Steve Toulmin points out in his last book, The Return of Reason, actually means,

“being finely skilled beyond expression in words.” Plato argued that metis meant “female

cunning” and females lie with words and that metis was a necessary tool in politics! This evil

side of Plato is also discussed in detail by University of Cambridge Ph.D. Peter Kingsley and

Professor Bruno Latour and its relevancy comes to light in regard to the recent expose of the

Straussians running the U.S. Capitol! Leo Strauss taught adherence to a Platonic transcendent

truth that hides behind public “white lies” thereby justifying corruption for the supposed greater






Knowing words: wisdom and cunning in the classical traditions of China

and Greece by Lisa Ann Raphals compares metis to a traditional Chinese context:

Two problems of early Chinese intellectual history correspond fairly closely to the

ancient Greek problem of mētis. The question of whether true knowledge can be

expressed directly in words was of great concern to the Chinese speculative

thinkers of the late Warring States period and was articulated in the “language

crisis” debates over the nature and limits of language. The problem of the relation

of wisdom and morality corresponds approximately to the “wen-wu conflict,” the

debate of the respective roles of wen and wu, the civil and martial spheres of






Raphals goes on to describe how just as with Plato, the meaning of metis was changed in

Chinese culture from Taoism to Confucianism:

Here the individual of zhi frequently appears as a sage-general, whose mastery of

the art of deception allows him to prevail over an opponent of stronger physical

force, a mode of operation of those strongly reminiscent of that associated with

the individual possessing mētis. Taoist texts, on the other hand, deride “small

knowledge” (Zhuangzi), or even all knowledge (Laozi)…. Since the Han dynasty,

the rationalist and moralistic world view of Confucianism has dominated the

Chinese intellectual, social and political tradition in much the same way

Platonism came to represent the Greek world view. And Confucianism, like

Platonism, carries its own metaphysical assumptions about wisdom and



Lisa Ann Raphals, Knowing words: wisdom and cunning in the classical traditions of China and

Greece (Cornell University Press, 1992), p. 18.




O.K. so just as with Plato changing the meaning of Pythagorean philosophy, we see the same

solar-patriarchal transformation in China through the philosopher Dong Zongshu in the 2nd

Century B.C. Philosophy professor David L. Hall documents that Zongshu changed the meaning

of yin-yang from being a fluid process of resonance with equal but complementary gender

relations to being a static hierarchical axiom based on left-brained patriarchal logic. The book

The Tao and the Logos : literary hermeneutics, East and West by Chang, Lung-hsi (1992)

documents that it was Dong Zongshu who was the most important philosopher to make

patriarchal Confucionism the dominant ideology of China.

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It's safe to say that Plotinus was trying to get back to the original mysticism of Plato - versus just a Platonic dualism - but unless the rotten root is exposed - then it is just a reform effort.


Buddhism has the same problem as Christianity in this regard.


The Vedic philosophy like Zoroastrianism - originates with the wheat farming of Western Asia - anatolia and spread out into India and Iran - and so it's based on the "symbolic revolution" of 9th millenium BCE - by males attempting to "contain" infinity using anthropocentric rectilinear geometry.


This is also the origins of white skin as malnutrition from lack of Vitamin D in the wheat diet.


So then by 5th millenium BCe you get domestication of cattle and so the word God is from GOTT meaning bull and Brahman also means bull - of course based on the men using cattle to pull the plows.



Put differently, it is because the ruler knows heaven that he can act as
representative of heaven on earth, thus maintaining good order in the
cosmos. This includes the social structure of society, as is evident from
the biography of Dong Zhongshu, included in the “Qian Han shu” (“History
of the Former Han”) (1986, Vol.1, 600b):


So yeah this early 5 elements philosophy is like NeoPlatonism in that it is a reform attempt to blend the original mystic training with an imperial caste system in China (and then in Europe for the NeoPlatonists).



Scholars of Confucianism may think Dong Zhongshu took in Daoist elements and further developed Confucianism; e.g. Zhang
Hao, “Politics and Teaching – Unified or in Duality?”, pp. 120-23. However, scholars of Daoism may see Dong Zhongshu and his
New Text Confucianism as essentially Daoism with a thin Confucianist disguise. See, for instance, Lü Xichen, Daoism, Fangshi, and
Dynastic Politics, pp. 94-106.


And so we could say the same about Plotinus - but indeed he was not a real Pythagorean mystic.


He was more like a metaphysicist - a writer on the subject.




In this insightful new book David J. Yount argues, against received wisdom, that there are no essential differences between the metaphysics of Plato and Plotinus. -



So the fact is again Plato was not a real Pythagorean-Taoist - Plato on the contrary relied on the Limited - with the positive infinity as the realm of forms.


The Chora as the source for Apeiron on Plato is still a Matrix - based on this materialist infinity - time as an "image of eternity."


So here we have Plato using Apeiron for the concept of geometric incommensurability.


The main concept of the limit is commensurability (rational numbers).


Whereas Apeiron is neither infinite divisibility nor rational continuity.


"Magnitudes have all the characteristics Plato attributes to Apeiron."


p. 394


Socratic, Platonic and Aristotelian Studies: Essays in Honor of Gerasimos Santas 2011

And so then you have Proclus directly stating if there were no Apeiron there would be no irrational magnitudes.


citing Vassliis Karasmanis, "Continunity and Irrationality in Ancient Greek Philosophy and Mathematics."

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"So then by 5th millenium BCe you get domestication of cattle and so the word God is from GOTT meaning bull and Brahman also means bull - of course based on the men using cattle to pull the plows."



At that time, pole star is in the constellation Taurus. It's all Taurus "bull" symbols, and these continued in use beyond that "age".


Just as earlier when the pole star was in Draco, and then it was all "dragon" symbols.


Cattle were domesticated earlier than that.




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Wild bulls were worshipped precisely because they had not been domesticated yet - that was in the transition period to domesticating grains also.



In the Timaeus 31c, Plato describes 

the geometric mean as the ‘fairest of bonds’.


That again is Plato's definition of Aperion as the Unlimited - but in fact it is a "contained" infinity as geometric magnitude!


So he lied about Pythagorean philosophy based on the real Wu Chi of Taoism.

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In a two-octave scale, such as the Greek GreaterPerfect System, for instance, the central tone-number will always be the square root of theproduct of the two outermost tone-numbers: a splendid example of a geometric mean. Tocreate the ‘World Soul’ the demiurge fills up the gaps in the series of powers of two and threealready mentioned by means of harmonic and arithmetic means. For example, if the harmonicand arithmetic means are placed between
we get
1 : 4/3 :: 3/2 : 2.
By convention,tone-numbers had to be integers. So each of these terms must be multiplied by
, resulting in
6 :8 : 9 : 12.
These four tone-numbers define the so-called ‘fixed’ tones of ancient Greek scales andthe tonic, sub-dominant, dominant and tonic octave of our modern diatonic scale.


I'm citing


Egyptian Fractions and the ancient science of harmonics.

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"This is also the origins of white skin as malnutrition from lack of Vitamin D in the wheat diet."



White skin appeared much earlier.


"Vitamin D" isn't a vitamin - it's a hormone produced by the body (in the skin and liver) in response to sun exposre, and is not present in many foods.


Millet doesn't have much "D" either, but eating it for centuries in Africa hasn't produced many white people there.




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The wheat farming is not like millet as part of a poly culture diet - but rather wheat as the main food source.


Yeah vitamin D - as a neurohormone - exactly.


This is new science.  You can look it up or if you ask nicely I'll get you the references.

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"The wheat farming is not like millet as part of a poly culture diet - but rather wheat as the main food source."



As was millet - in both Africa and China. Millet was a staple food in China before rice.



"This is new science.  You can look it up or if you ask nicely I'll get you the references."







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Von Cracker-house - sorry to burst your white skin bubble.



In the case of skin color, the team speculates that these populations, which represented early farmers, had previously received a lot of vitamin D from their food, such as vitamin D-rich fish and animal livers, when they were hunter-gatherers. But after the advent of farming, when grains such as wheat and barley became a major part of their dinner plates, early Europeans needed to synthesize a larger amount of vitamin D in their skins. That’s when lightening up became very advantageous. The study “provides evidence that loss of regular dietary vitamin D as a result of the transition to a more strongly agricultural lifestyle may have triggered” the evolution of lighter skin, says Nina Jablonski, a leading skin color researcher at Pennsylvania State University, University Park.


This isn't off topic either since the whole wheat crazed kicked in around the same time.




In addition, the researchers found that the La Brana hunter-gather was lactose intolerant and not able to digest starchy food as well as Neolithic farmers, "supporting the hypotheses that these abilities were selected for during the later transition to agriculture," the authors wrote in their study.

My guess is that someone in China eating millet before rice - most likely also ate a lot of fish and meat organs, like a millet eater in AFrica.
But a potato eater in the Andes isn't eating much fish or meat organs - hence the relatively white skin of people from the Andes. haha.



Johan Moan, of the university's Institute of Physics, said in a research paper: ‘In England, from 5,500-5,200 years ago the food changed rapidly away from fish as an important food source. This led to a rapid development of ... light skin.’


and so the white people in India - from wheat farming Brahmins:


But in India, the prevalence of the gene in different populations didn't correlate with latitude, but instead seemed strongly linked to language, geography and demographic history. The study also showed that the gene was positively selected for in North, but not South India (though both light- and dark-skinned people live in both regions).

It's not clear exactly what caused the gene to be favored in certain regions, but it probably wasn't the production of vitamin D alone, the study suggests.




The Mesolithic period, or Middle Stone Age was followed by the Neolithic era, when hunter-gatherers became farmers and started eating a lot more grains.

This dietary switch could be the reason Europeans developed lighter skin.

"In the food-production theory, the cereal-rich diet of Neolithic farmers lacked vitamin D," LiveScience explains, "so Europeans rapidly lost their dark-skin pigmentation only once they switched to agriculture, because it was only at that point that they had to synthesize vitamin D from the sun more readily."


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Look at all those words in the quotes, like: "speculated", "food production theory", "the hypothesis", etc, etc.


Most of this speculation is incorrect - especially the white skin/"vitamin D in diet" guessing.


Millet was not primarily grown near coastal areas where fish was eaten, but my original point was that "food" in general is a poor source of "vitamin" D, because vitamin D as we use it is a hormonal product of the liver after sun exposure, and not a "vitamin" in many foods. Today we see massive de-pigmentation of dark-skin people who have moved above 40 degrees latitude, in just one generation, while grain eating people in India and Africa are remaining very dark skin.


And why call me "Von Cracker-house"? Do you see this sharing of info as some sort of contest?




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Look at all those words in the quotes, like: "speculated", "food production theory", "the hypothesis", etc, etc.


Most of this speculation is incorrect - especially the white skin/"vitamin D in diet" guessing.


Millet was not primarily grown near coastal areas where fish was eaten, but my original point was that "food" in general is a poor source of "vitamin" D, because vitamin D as we use it is a hormonal product of the liver after sun exposure, and not a "vitamin" in many foods. Today we see massive de-pigmentation of dark-skin people who have moved above 40 degrees latitude, in just one generation, while grain eating people in India and Africa are remaining very dark skin.


And why call me "Von Cracker-house"? Do you see this sharing of info as some sort of contest?




O.K. so you're saying research published in the journal Nature is "speculation" while your crazy claims with no evidence are the real truth. haha.




Today we see massive de-pigmentation of dark-skin people who have moved above 40 degrees latitude, in just one generation,

This has to be one of the strangest comments I've ever seen.


Do you live in the U.S.? I doubt it.


There are very dark skin people here who have lived here much longer as generations of dark skinned people - whereas many of the crackers came over here more recently.


So it's very silly to claim that people are becoming whiter in one generation - maybe if they marry and have kids with a cracker.




Surprisingly, farmed salmon had approximately 25% of the vitamin D content as wild salmon had.

The vitamin D source for fish - depends on what the fish eat.


For example Tilapia are vegetarian fish and so they are farm-fed corn and so they're not gonna have Vitamin D since corn is not a green food source.


When fish in the wild eat algae then they're gonna have lots of Vitamin D and also Omega 3 fats. Eating corn will increase omega 6 fats.


So people eat farm-raised shrimp, farm-raised tilapia and farm-raised salmon - and they're not eating real fish - it's the same as eating corn-fed beef - plus all those farm-raised fish are fed antibiotics and other nasty synthetic chemicals.


So you're claim about millet diets in Africa?


Again you provide no evidence and so what do I do?


I actually do the research for you and presto! YOu're disproven! Hilarious!


So it's not just fish but also animal organs that have vitamin D as I already stated.


The two major forms are vitamin D2 and vitamin D3. Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) is largely human-made and added to foods, whereas vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is synthesized in the skin of humans from 7-dehydrocholesterol and is also consumed in the diet via the intake of animal-based foods. Both vitamin D3 and vitamin D2 are synthesized commercially and found in dietary supplements or fortified foods. The D2 and D3 forms differ only in their side chain structure.


So now we return to your claim that the research I posted is "speculation."


O.K. it's DNA analysis of skeletons and it discovered that there were middle eastern migrants into Europe - for example Sweden 5,000 years ago - and so right next to each other you have Swedish hunter-gatherer types who were not white and then you have middle eastern wheat farmers who were white.


So white people didn't exist until 5,000 years ago in Sweden.


Now the Finns didn't take up wheat farming as much and so the Finns are more swarthy and like the Hungarians - they are not Indo-European of origin but rather from more Mongolian origin like the Japanese. And so also the Welsh are more swarthy since they eat more fish - just as with the Innuit - both living very far north yet have darker skin.


So that disproves your claim that living farther north creates darker skin in one generation.


As for diet being speculation - actually pigment in food really does change your skin color very easily - permanently.


I was eating 3 bulbs of garlic a day - that's right bulbs of raw garlic! haha. Now my skin is permanently yellow from all the sulfur in the garlic. I have no complaints about the color of my skin but it's pretty funny.


Milarepa's skin was reportedly permanently green from his diet of living off stinging nettles.


Ellen Page the actress had orange skin on her palms of hands and armpits and everyone wondered why and she confirmed she had been juicing tons of carrots. haha.


So yes pigment in food or lack there off definitely changes skin color.


Is black conducive to Vitamin D?


Well this also ties into calcification of the pineal gland.


I was reading from a Pan-African research emphasizing how whites have more calcified pineal glands.


In fact - increased melatonin from the pineal gland also decreases breast cancer but increases calcification and in tern increased melatonin also causes white skin and reduced reproductive organs - there's an inverse relation between reproductive organs and the pineal gland activation.


So the thing to realize is that wheat farming for Western Asia that spread into Europe is essentially a monocultural mindset whereas millet farming exists in a polyculture system and so the diet is more varied with hunting still a large part of the diet.


By comparing key parts of the DNA across the genomes of 83 ancient individuals from archaeological sites throughout Europe, the international team of researchers reported earlier this year that Europeans today are a mix of the blending of at least three ancient populations of hunter-gatherers and farmers who moved into Europe in separate migrations over the past 8000 years. The study revealed that a massive migration of Yamnaya herders from the steppes north of the Black Sea may have brought Indo-European languages to Europe about 4500 years ago.


Now, a new study from the same team drills down further into that remarkable data to search for genes that were under strong natural selection–including traits so favorable that they spread rapidly throughout Europe in the past 8000 years. By comparing the ancient European genomes with those of recent ones from the 1000 Genomes Project, population geneticist Iain Mathieson, a postdoc in the Harvard University lab of population geneticist David Reich, found five genes associated with changes in diet and skin pigmentation that underwent strong natural selection.


So if you want to be racist and ignore this science - by all means do so.


Personally I find it fascinating but the fact is that white skin is from malnutrition.


And the new data confirm that about 8500 years ago, early hunter-gatherers in Spain, Luxembourg, and Hungary also had darker skin: They lacked versions of two genes–SLC24A5 and SLC45A2–that lead to depigmentation and, therefore, pale skin in Europeans today.

O.K. I did discover a correction - the hunter-gatherers of SOUTHERN Sweden (while the more northern latitude Swami still had darker skin from their fish diet!) did originally have white skin but the hunter-gathers of Central and Southern Europe were dark skin in contrast to the light skin farmers from the Middle East:


Seven people from the 7700-year-old Motala archaeological site in southern Sweden had both light skin gene variants, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin.

Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency.


So the amount of sunlight does play a factor obviously.



and so blue eyes really is a variation - a less extreme condition of albinism!


The mutation affected the so-called OCA2 gene, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives color to our hair, eyes and skin.

"A genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a 'switch,' which literally 'turned off' the ability to produce brown eyes," Eiberg said.


The genetic switch is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 and rather than completely turning off the gene, the switch limits its action, which reduces the production of melanin in the iris. In effect, the turned-down switch diluted brown eyes to blue.

If the OCA2 gene had been completely shut down, our hair, eyes and skin would be melanin-less, a condition known as albinism.


The claim is that it makes them more sexually attractive and so it spread through Europe - more blue eyes - but it also means lighter skin and this variation really originated from darker skin Africans originally in Europe and the blue eyes were a type of albinism. It's just that in northern Europe having blue eyes also meant having lighter skin for better vitamin D absorption and so better survival rate - despite increased melanoma rates at older age - the ability to reproduce increased from better vitamin D levels.

Edited by Innersoundqigong

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In Scandinavia the Sami are darker than the peoples to the south, and the Inuit are generally a light brown skinned people. It seems that the fairest peoples in the world reside around the shores of the Baltic sea, not in the circumpolar regions.





In short, Sweet argues that the diets of pre-farming peoples were richer in meats and fish which provided sufficient Vitamin D so that skin color was likely light brown as opposed to pink. But with the spread of agriculture Vitamin D disappeared from the diets of northern European peoples and so only by reducing their melanin levels could they produce sufficient amounts of this nutrient to keep at bay the deleterious consequences of deficiencies. This explains why the Sami, who never adopted agriculture, remained darker. One could hypothesize that the relative swarthiness of groups like the Welsh might be due to greater reliance on fish and game as opposed to agriculture, but the point is not to explain every last detail but to clarify the overall trend.

Sweet’s essay was written in 2002. In 2005 a gene, SLC24A5, was implicated in explaining a large proportion (25-38%) of the between population difference in skin color for Europeans and Africans. It seems that on this locus the two populations were disjoint, they exhibited no substantial overlap. In European it seems that 6 to 10 thousand years ago a new variant arose which subsequently swept to fixation. In the model above it seems likely that the mutation was just there at “the right place and right time.” Interestingly in East Asians SLC24A5 exhibits the same sequence as it does in Africans. But, it seems that other loci are responsible for the lightening of the skin of East Asians recently as well, though not to the same extent as Europeans. The reason for this is likely the fact that temperate East Asia as at a far lower latitude than Europe.


So yeah it's a mixture of diet and latitude - but definitely the far north swarthy cultures are so because of their fish diet - going against the latitude. But then the AFrican blue eyes albinism spread into far North and even though it had a darker skin - when it cross bred with the white wheat farmers - then the recessive light skin gene became dominant - and presto! instead of white skin brown people you get white skin blue-eyed people in Scandinavia.


Pretty fascinating.

Edited by Innersoundqigong

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What does any of this have to do with Daoism and Neoplatonism? Perhaps the mods should split your conversation on race and skin color into another thread.


In any case, patriarchal solar traditions and civilizations (such as the various Indo-European civilizations of history) are the best bruh.

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