The dilemma with "Thinking" and How it keeps us eternally in the Past.

[4bsolute]

Stirred up by Dream_Bliss.

When I think about something, I use my mind.

 

My mind consists of both past and future.

 

In my human state I can only assume a future, consciously. I am not capable of clearly perceive a future, yet.

And I can take out what I already know, out of my past, my subconscious mind.

So in the end, I fantasize. Some individuals call this "creating".

But how effective is it?

The assumed future has no real substance to it, since we all know how wonderful and colorful a day-dream can feel like and the real application feels Totally different. And when I think, I usually utilize my past. So I think always in the past. Nothing new is ever thought.

Thought is simply a reflection of what already happened, so it is eternally the past. Can you see this? This moment right here and right now can not be thought about, because it is so fresh. It can only be experienced directly.

 

Do you see the human dilemma, especially today in our modern world? People "think" they live, but they do not. They think. Living means being right here in this moment and experiencing. Making a direct experience with life. That does not require a setup, a preparation. Can never, how could it be?

 

How can you think about what will happen in the very next moment? You can only assume it from what you already know.

 

Do you see where this leads? It is an endless loop. Endless repetition. Do you see the "humanity" in all of this? How all of our trends are ruminated over and over again? How nothing profoundly new is ever invited? How could it be? It can only happen Without the use of thought, through a clear knowing.

 

Please reflect upon it and see what is actually and only going wrong in this life. This penetrates all layers of our day to day life.

Edited March 31, 2015 by 4bsolute

[Marblehead]

Those concepts are familiar from my discussions with Vmarco.  Living, thinking, experiencing in the past.

 

But I still suggest that living spontaneously allows for living in the present.

 

And also, when considering possible courses of action in the present moment and how they will effect the future we are, in fact, living in the future.

 

I have nothing good to say about living in the past.

[C T]

Since thinking is a natural action, there is nothing inherently right or wrong with it. 

 

Once the essence of mind is recognised and recognition stabilised, arising thoughts liberate themselves without any doer. Thoughts are self-liberating due to their inherent emptiness. They are ungraspable, like space. It occurs spontaneously in those who have reached stability in mind recognition. 

 

But those who don't see mind essence will continue to solidify thoughts on the basis of interdependent origination, going back countless moments and lifetimes, due to habitual karmic accruements from the past mixed with ignorance, resulting naturally as projections, which is then assumed to materialise - this arising immediately becomes conceptualised as 'the future' for those who have not recognised mind essence. 

[Jetsun]

If you get really sensitive and grounded in the present it is possible to directly perceive that the world the mind creates actually happens after life, so life happens and then milliseconds later the mind recreates what it has perceived like a virtual reality or like a video camera recreation but with its own filtering and distortion added on. And we live in the virtual reality nearly all of the time rather than the real thing! So not only are thoughts completely coloured by past conditioning the world the mind creates happens after life so isn't actually real. 

[C T]

I dont think the true mind (or fundamental nature of the mind), which is essentially like a mirror, can be held responsible for creating anything, just like a mirror does not 'create' images and reflections. 

[Jetsun]

I dont think the true mind (or fundamental nature of the mind), which is essentially like a mirror, can be held responsible for creating anything, just like a mirror does not 'create' images and reflections. 

 

Yet the thinking mind is creating non stop all day long, it is creating our sense of separate self. What it creates isn't actually real though so in that sense it isn't creating anything with substance, but to all intents and purposes our perception is that it is real most of the time.

[C T]

Yet the thinking mind is creating non stop all day long, it is creating our sense of separate self. What it creates isn't actually real though so in that sense it isn't creating anything with substance, but to all intents and purposes our perception is that it is real most of the time.

Precisely. Hence the notion of 'samsara' used to explain this 'grasping' nature of the unawakened, dust-covered mind. Its the grasping that cripples the recognition of true mind, not the thoughts as such. 

[steve]

I dont think the true mind (or fundamental nature of the mind), which is essentially like a mirror, can be held responsible for creating anything, just like a mirror does not 'create' images and reflections. 

 

The fundamental nature is certainly mirror-like and at the same time it contains infinite potential.

Is it best to say that it is not responsible for creating anything, or perhaps we should say that all is created within this fundamental nature yet none of it has any inherent existence.

After all, what is there outside of this nature of mind that is reflected and creates images?

The reflections are empty and what casts those reflections is equally empty.

The mirror analogy only tells part of the story, IMO.

 

edited to add -

I think the OP would enjoy reading Krishnamurti - he covers this topic extensively and insightfully

Edited March 31, 2015 by steve

[Jetsun]

If our fundamental nature is unable to create then what is continually creating all that which is going on around us? It seems to me that one of the core features of life is its infinite ability to create. 

[C T]

If our fundamental nature is unable to create then what is continually creating all that which is going on around us? It seems to me that one of the core features of life is its infinite ability to create. 

"In the Kun-byed rgyal-po, a tantra of Dzogchen, it is said that: 'The Mind is that which creates both Samsara and Nirvana, so one needs to know this King which creates everything!' We say we transmigrate in the impure and illusory vision of Samsara, but in reality, it's just our mind that is transmigrating. And then again, as far as pure Enlightenment is concerned, it's only our own mind, purified, that realizes it. Our mind is the basis of everything, and from our mind everything arises, Samsara and Nirvana, ordinary sentient beings and Enlightened Ones. Consider the way beings transmigrate in the impure vision of Samsara: even though the Essence of the Mind, the true nature of our mind, is totally pure right from the beginning, nevertheless, because pure mind is temporarily obscured by the impurity of ignorance, there is no self-recognition of our own State. Through this lack of self-recognition arise illusory thoughts and actions created by the passions. Thus various negative karmic causes are accumulated and since their maturation as effects is inevitable, one suffers bitterly, transmigrating in the six states of existence. Thus, not recognizing one's own State is the cause of transmigration, and through this cause one becomes the slave of illusions and distractions.

 

Conditioned by the mind, one becomes strongly habituated to illusory actions. And then it's the same as far as pure Enlightenment is concerned; beyond one's own mind there is no dazzling light to come shining in from outside to wake one up. If one recognizes one's own intrinsic State as pure from the beginning and only temporarily obscured by impurities, and if one maintains the presence of this recognition without becoming distracted, then all the impurities dissolve." ~ N. Norbu Rinpoche

[Jetsun]

"In the Kun-byed rgyal-po, a tantra of Dzogchen, it is said that: 'The Mind is that which creates both Samsara and Nirvana, so one needs to know this King which creates everything!'

 

I don't see how this answers my question. The mind creates Samsara and Nirvana but there is that which is beyond our regular mind, which is direct perception

 

"Our mind is the basis for everything" will be true or not depending on what level we are talking about. The thinking mind may cause all the Samsara and Nirvana we experience but it is a different thing to say that the thinking mind created the tree and car outside of my window, that tree can be known through a direct energetic perception without thought coming into it at all, or it can be known to exist by others verifying its existence without my mind creating it. 

[C T]

I don't see how this answers my question. The mind creates Samsara and Nirvana but there is that which is beyond our regular mind, which is direct perception

 

"Our mind is the basis for everything" will be true or not depending on what level we are talking about. The thinking mind may cause all the Samsara and Nirvana we experience but it is a different thing to say that the thinking mind created the tree and car outside of my window, that tree can be known through a direct energetic perception without thought coming into it at all, or it can be known to exist by others verifying its existence without my mind creating it. 

Your question was: What is it that is continually creating.

 

The quote implies that when the mind ceases to grasp at things, then nothing is created. Uncreated does not mean nothing exists, it simply means things still arise and cease, but the arising and ceasing is recognised as a continuum. A continuum has no beginning, no middle, and no end, so in essence, something which does not have a beginning, a middle and an end cannot have been created, but what sees a beginning, a middle, and an end, which is then linked to appearances having a solid feel, is the mind.  

[4bsolute]

Those concepts are familiar from my discussions with Vmarco.  Living, thinking, experiencing in the past.

 

But I still suggest that living spontaneously allows for living in the present.

 

And also, when considering possible courses of action in the present moment and how they will effect the future we are, in fact, living in the future.

 

I have nothing good to say about living in the past.

 

Well yes, we can say that living in the future is living consciously. And living in our subconscious is somewhat living in the past. With all the we dont want to be. But maybe I come back to that, I can not precisely say that it is that way due to only sharing fragments of my own life experience that puzzles itself together to a more complete picture, right as we speak.

 

And yes, truly, I am sure everyone sooner or later on it's "spiritual path" (path of awakened consciousness) will agree on how important it is, to live in the present moment. To understand what is actually happening. It only can be done from here.

 

 

Since thinking is a natural action, there is nothing inherently right or wrong with it. 

 

Once the essence of mind is recognised and recognition stabilised, arising thoughts liberate themselves without any doer. Thoughts are self-liberating due to their inherent emptiness. They are ungraspable, like space. It occurs spontaneously in those who have reached stability in mind recognition. 

 

But those who don't see mind essence will continue to solidify thoughts on the basis of interdependent origination, going back countless moments and lifetimes, due to habitual karmic accruements from the past mixed with ignorance, resulting naturally as projections, which is then assumed to materialise - this arising immediately becomes conceptualised as 'the future' for those who have not recognised mind essence. 

 

Surely it is not "wrong" but to learn how to use a tool, one must be able to perceive it from every angle. And how would we want to do that while we see ourselves to be "in" the tool itself? People identify with thinking, so they think they are the tool, which keeps them from properly using it. Well that would put it again in a "to be wrong" classification, yes, and to be even more precise lets call it a different conscious level of using it. First you must be it, then gain distance / space to ultimately use it in mastery. This is how I feel it to be currently in my life.

 

The nature in human form currently Has just the tendency, largely speaking, that it does barely allow any change. So all the change that comes, looks all the same, over and over again.

 

Do I personally want that? No. That is why I started to understand what keeps me from changing. And interestingly enough it was not me in the first place, it was more about what people think of me when I change. Because I tended to change so fast, people became mad, because they had trouble relating. Cant stress enough my own self-realization what a Good Attribute this is to have.

 

This understanding is all subject to change.

Edited March 31, 2015 by 4bsolute