"Osho" ( Mohan Chandra Rajneesh)

[steve]

Osho - Mohan Chandra Rajneesh:

Enlightened mystic or corrupt con-man....

Perhaps a bit of both?

Is there a difference?

Does it matter?

Let the games begin...

Edited September 21, 2007 by xuesheng

[thelerner]

Here's a link (loonng) to the dark side http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html

 

I've read through a few of his books. I liked them. They didn't strike me as deep, but they were good. There certainly seemed to be dozens that he wrote. I had one book on various meditations -Lunchtime Enlightenment(?) by a student of his who loved him. It was a good book and I'm sure he helped her and many other people.

 

But that dark side is pretty black. I'm sure he had juice, but it he ended up going down a corrupt path.

 

 

Michael

[Oolong Rabbit]

I always thought of him as the greedy a__hole "guru" who brainwashed people and drove around in a fleet of Rolls Royce's. The other day I read the following, and now I believe I totally misunderstood his intent:

 

"I was just a tourist there (USA - Oregon), and I made the whole of America disturbed. They had enough money; they could have purchased more Rolls Royces if they wanted. But they had no guts for that either. They were condemning me, saying that I am a materialist. And you will be surprised; one bishop who was continuously condemning me as a materialist, wrote me a letter, privately, saying, "It would be very compassionate of you if you could donate a Rolls Royce to my church. It won't make any difference to you -- ninety-three or ninety-two -- but it will make much difference to us." And every Sunday he was condemning me. His condemnation was not about my materialism; his condemnation was to hide his jealousy. The politicians, the rich, could have managed it for themselves -- why were they worried? But the worry was that a tourist, who has not even a valid visa, has defeated all the super-rich; it hurts! If they were intelligent enough, they could have understood that there must be a purpose behind these Rolls Royces. It cannot be just the one-hour ride. For that, one Rolls Royce would have been enough. Everything that I have done in my life has a purpose. It is a device to bring out something in you of which you are not aware.

 

It is part of my whole device to change the very structure of human consciousness. The past has revered poverty, asceticism, masochistic attitudes. A man was respected if he was renouncing all that is pleasant, all that is comfortable. He was respected for torturing himself; the greater the torture, the greater the respect. The whole human past is masochistic, and all the religions have contributed to this insanity. My effort is to change such a vast past and its influence. So it has been only a device. I have not been creating desires for materialistic things in people; they are there without anybody's creating them. Yes, they have been repressed so deeply that people have even forgotten that they had them. I am not creating them; I simply want to remove the cover-up, the repression, and to make the person realize that he wants a Rolls Royce more than enlightenment. This realization will be a basic step towards enlightenment, because it will make him aware of his own reality, his greed. There was no need for ninety-three Rolls Royces. I could not use ninety-three Rolls Royces simultaneously -- the same model, the same car. But I wanted to make it clear to you that you would be ready to drop all your desires for truth, for love, for spiritual growth to have a Rolls Royce. I was knowingly creating a situation in which you would feel jealous. The function of a master is very strange. He has to help you come to an understanding of your inner structure of consciousness: it is full of jealousy.

 

People go on condemning me. The moment I come to know that they are condemning me for a certain thing, then I go on doing the same thing on a bigger scale. I had only one Rolls Royce. They started condemning me, so I told my secretary, "Arrange for two." In India it was very difficult, because the Rolls Royce after 1965 became a banned item, it could not enter the country. I was the only man who managed to have two Rolls Royces enter the country. When I came to America, I said to my secretary, "Now there is no limit." I had seven, and they were condemning me -- a spiritual man, an enlightened person, having seven Rolls Royces when people are dying of starvation? Now I have ninety. Now they don't condemn me. They know that if they continue condemning me, I will go on having more and more Rolls Royces until they are satisfied. I have my own individuality. I don't need anybody's respect, because I am so full there is no space for anything else. And it has been a tremendous experience to be so notorious and yet to be loved by millions of people. That gives a great hope, that even an ordinary man can be loved; you need not to be extraordinary to be loved. "

 

http://www.otoons.com/osho/roll_royce.html

[VeeCee]

I always thought of him as the greedy a__hole "guru" who brainwashed people and drove around in a fleet of Rolls Royce's. The other day I read the following, and now I believe I totally misunderstood his intent:

 

I don't know - maybe I missed the point, but what I hear is someone rationalizing his own actions.

[mantis]

being enlightened is simply a state of mind, comparable to being high on marijuana. if you are a liar, or you are an angry or greedy person, you still will be when enlightened; i believe at least and this is most likely osho's case.

 

this would explain why monks and ascetic's (buddhism comes to mind) have to follow certain codes of conduct if you'll call them that.

Edited September 24, 2007 by mantis

[林愛偉]

being enlightened is simply a state of mind, comparable to being high on marijuana. if you are a liar, or you are an angry or greedy person, you still will be when enlightened; i believe at least and this is most likely osho's case.

 

this would explain why monks and ascetic's (buddhism comes to mind) have to follow certain codes of conduct if you'll call them that.

 

 

 

Being high on marajuana isn't anywhere close to enlightenment.

 

There is no grounds of comparison

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Pietro]

I don't know - maybe I missed the point, but what I hear is someone rationalizing his own actions.

Well, he does strike a point that it is the most silly way to throw away ones money. I mean, 90 different cars could make sense, but 90... all the same?

[VeeCee]

Well, he does strike a point that it is the most silly way to throw away ones money. I mean, 90 different cars could make sense, but 90... all the same?

 

I think you can make the point well before you own 90 of anything. It still sounds like bs to me.

[steve]

I think you can make the point well before you own 90 of anything. It still sounds like bs to me.

Ditto - I think he had some very serious psychopathology yet some of his writings (talks) were still truly insightful. I once worked at an inpatient psychiatric facility. One of the patients was a paranoid schizophrenic. Ironically, he was also a psychiatric nurse. When he was psychotic, he was extremely frightening - I never let him get between me and the door! When he cleared, he was a brilliant psych nurse and really was able to help alot of the other patients. It was fascinating to see the transition. When he was discharged, he asked me for my phone number - I really liked the guy but didn't give him my number... My point is that Osho may have been pathologic (whether clinical or criminal or both) yet many of his writings remain extremely helpful, at least to me, particularly with respect to understanding some of the classics, like Zhuangzi and Liezi.

[mantis]

 

Being high on marajuana isn't anywhere close to enlightenment.

 

There is no grounds of comparison

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

i suppose this is where we differ. when on marijuana you unwillingly meditate and are always in a state of awareness = enlightment.

[VeeCee]

Ditto - I think he had some very serious psychopathology yet some of his writings (talks) were still truly insightful.

 

Which goes back to my question on another thread - how do you know who's truly enlightened and who's just nuts? Or is it on some kind of continuum, and if so, where do you cross the line?

[林愛偉]

i suppose this is where we differ. when on marijuana you unwillingly meditate and are always in a state of awareness = enlightment.

 

Maybe it is where our "views" differ. Nonetheless...we are still good people

 

Aware is just knowing. Enlightenment is knowing there is nothing to know.

Awake and enlightenment are similar. Aware is like mindfulness.

 

Enlightenment is still not complete unless further cultivation is adhered to. hehe

 

One may reach states with outside help, but they will only remain states until

it is accomplished by one's own power...inwhich it is still a state until it is dropped.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Oolong Rabbit]

I think you can make the point well before you own 90 of anything. It still sounds like bs to me.

 

There are many tales of masters, gurus and 'enlightened beings' doing seemingly irrational or insane things. Often this is done as shock therapy to stimulate your psyche and 'wake you up'. What' point could there possibly be in owning 90 Rolls Royces other than to prove a point Do I think the ends justify the means in this case? Not really. Neither am I claiming to be a fan of Osho, but sometimes things might not be as obvious as they appear.

[beancurdturtle]

when on marijuana you unwillingly meditate and are always in a state of awareness = enlightment.

This is like saying "when a marathon is a thirty meter run you are unwillingly a capable marathon runner = athlete."

 

Marijuana and other filters are like blinders on a spirited horse. They narrow your field of perception, sometimes to the point that you haven't the capacity to focus on more than one thing. That's not meditation - that's disability.

 

If you truly believe Marijuana causes unwilling meditation, you should get your hands on some Thorazine. You will experience some extremely deep "meditative" states.

 

Peace,

[VeeCee]

If you truly believe Marijuana causes unwilling meditation, you should get your hands on some Thorazine. You will experience some extremely deep "meditative" states.

 

BCT,

 

I know you are kidding, but some people may think you are serious.

 

Mantis,

 

I have experienced marijuana enough to know and say that it does NOT cause unwilling meditation - just a really good buzz. I'm sure there are other people on this site who will back me up.

 

V.

[mantis]

doesn't matter - i've experienced it so i know it is true.

[beancurdturtle]

doesn't matter - i've experienced it so i know it is true.

Then you are doing one or the other wrong. And it's hard to do marijuana wrong - meditation however, is easy to do wrong.

 

Peace,

 

BCT,

 

I know you are kidding, but some people may think you are serious.

Yes, I'm kidding about Thorazine being deeply meditative - it was a 90 Rolls Royce kind of comment.

 

Marijuana, Thorazine (as an extreme example), et al, create altered mental states - meditation should be grounded in an un-altered state.