Marblehead Posted January 6, 2015 WoW! You got pretty damn philosophical on me there. That was beyond my expectations. And you know what else? I can't even argue against what you said. (But that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with all of it.) But yes, we each have our own limiters as to how many choices we have in live and to the extent we can express our free will. And I do agree that instinct (I prefer calling it "living spontaneously") often serves us much better than our calculated choices do. Fewer mistakes are made because we don't over-think things. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted January 6, 2015 I simply embrace the LCD; lowest common denominator being to choose instinct over desire. i am not always successful, but i believe that is the MOST responsible usage of the Free Will, of ANY body - humans being the most irresponsible in the universe - i think that would better detail *why* the moon chooses never to stray from orbit, or why the Earth has chosen to allow humans to infect and kill her body.it boils down to instinct - the best natural physiological reception for individual welfare. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) I will never deny the importance of our instincts. Much of living spontaneously is rooted there. I see Animistic ideas in your last few posts. And yes, it does link with living mostly by instinct. Survival is an instinct so you take good care of yourself, Okay? Edited January 6, 2015 by Marblehead 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FmAm Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) I have to say that for me the question of free will has been in crucial role in understanding spiritual texts and practice. It's been something considered intellectually and intuitively self-evident for me for a long time that free will doesn't exist in any way. Nowadays it's also spiritually clear. I gave belief in free will a chance, particularly when reading religious and spiritual writings (and when meditating). But it just didn't work, so I stopped fighting against my intuition eventually. Many of the texts didn't unfold at all when there was the assumption of required belief in free will in order to understand spirituality. There was just a pile of complicated belief systems and pseudo-problems in front of me. But no-free will and no-self were the keys for understanding. For me. I just don't know why I didn't give no-free will a chance earlier in the spiritual and practical side of my life, although it had been an intellectual reality for a long time. Edited January 18, 2015 by FmAm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 18, 2015 Okay. You don't have free will. I have free will. And also, it was my choice to respond to your post. My free will allows me choices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FmAm Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Things happen. You write, I write, neurons go on and off, wind blows, earth revolves. No cause or infinite cause. But where's the past? There can be no proof about it. The proof is always here and now. But where's here and now? There is no "now". It isn't better than past or better than future. Present is overrated. So did things happen, after all? Where's the possibility for you and me as free agents? There's no possibility in logic. Pragmaticism is logic. No possibility in time and space. No possibility in causality. No possibility in unity. No possibility in no-logic, because there is no causality in no-logic. How could we decide and choose? Edited January 18, 2015 by FmAm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 18, 2015 Deja Vu. (Yes, I've been here before.) Things happen. You write, I write, neurons go on and off, wind blows, earth revolves. No cause or infinite cause. Cause and effect are one of the principles of Tao and of physics. Things don't 'just happen'. Whatever happen has its cause(s). I am responding this evening because I am still recording music from vinyl to the computer while being digitized so that I can add the music to my collection. Normally, as I had just turned the pond pumps back on after the fish had supper, I would have already turned off the computer and wouldn't have seen your post until the morning. All cause and effect. But where's the past? There can be no proof about it. The proof is always here and now. But where's here and now? There is no "now". It isn't better than past or better than future. Present is overrated. So did things happen, after all? We can no longer observe the past (except in dreams). But we can see the results of cause and effect of past events. You are incorrect about being unable to prove that the past happened. You are a living being. There is proof that you mother and father had sex. There is an ever recurring "now". This "now" becomes a part of the past. But this "now" too has passed but it did exist for a small fraction of time. The present is the only place I have to live. I cannot live in any yesterday nor can I live in any tomorrow. I cannot plan for the past as it is written in stone. But I can plan for the future. Yes, one yesterday a long time ago I broke one of my hips. Shit happens. But really, the event was cause and effect and I can trace all the key causes to the point of it breaking. That too is written in stone. It can never be undone. Where's the possibility for you and me as free agents? That is an open question and I am unable to respond without further information. There's no possibility in logic. Pragmaticism is logic. The entire universe is possibility. Logic can define very well possibilities of future events. No possibility in time and space. No possibility in causality. From the POV of Philosophical Taoism, "yo", the manifest universe, is a subset of "wu", mystery, or potential. The interaction of potential with the energy and processes of Tao (Tzujan) more "yo". Old "yo" recycles back into "wu" and once again become potential. If there is an effect there was a cause. That I will call a universal. No possibility in unity. No possibility in no-logic, because there is no causality in no-logic. How could we decide and choose? Unity? There once was. It is called Singularity. That was before the Big Bang. Observe and understand the processes. Sure, there is only so much we can get a handle on but we can understand some things. If you take a hammer and smash one of your fingers you will feel pain. Every time you do this you feel pain. You can than make an educated statement, based on you personal experiences, that if you smash one of your fingers with a hammer you are going to feel pain. Cause: Hammer smashing finger Effect: Pain And please, please, please don't tell me that you don't exist because if this were so then I am experiencing some really vivid illusions and delusions. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 19, 2015 I never get tired of this topic... so many great ideas come out of it. A lot hinges for me in the relationship between cause and effect. I (experiencer) vs other (outside influence). Independent origin vs complete universal connection. From where I experience life now, the idea that I am somehow an independent force exerting my will on the conditions of the Tao, making choices of independent origin and exerting my power on the world is mainly illusory. Such as my 'choice' to respond here and now. Or to go and get a drink of water vs tea... I could say on one level that I'm making a choice and back it up nicely... On one level, it does seem that I read the words and decide to respond, or brew tea vs pour a glass of water. Yet I can just as easily back up the reality of the experience on a deeper level, that the course of actions that took place and led to my posting, or reaching for the pot, were almost completely predictable based on existing conditions of my experiential awareness and such responses are more akin to a predictable compulsion than a free thinking, independent choice. I sense that most of the processes I used to refer to as a choice, were not decided by me in the moment with my conscious mind. Conditions present a situation in the present moment, I react and in the moments after the event, is when the justifying, evaluating mind frames that action as a choice and the associated reasons why are generated after the fact, so that the experience may be added to the list of experience/stories that become my sense of self. I guess... More than anything, I'm certain about not being certain... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FmAm Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) http://ethicalfocus.org/free-will-the-last-great-lie/ http://www.bostonreview.net/forum/barbara-fried-beyond-blame-moral-responsibility-philosophy-law Edited January 19, 2015 by FmAm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 19, 2015 http://ethicalfocus.org/free-will-the-last-great-lie/ http://www.bostonreview.net/forum/barbara-fried-beyond-blame-moral-responsibility-philosophy-law Okay. So who are you going to listen to? Someone with an agenda who wants to influence how you think or to me, a person who speaks of first hand experiences with no agenda and who doesn't care whether you accept what he says as being the truth? Your choice. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
