Zazen, Dazuo(打坐), and Meditation

[thelerner]

I've always thought of zazen practice as a type of meditation. A strict formal kind. Striving for perfect posture, long sitting with a concentrated yet empty mind. Its probably old school, but I imagine students lined up on zafu's facing the wall. A sensei pacing the room with a long bamboo rod, ready to give the 'whack of awakening' to those who break form. Ofcourse I realize that's a bit of a caricature. I do see a much more 'just so' in the posture, mind and breath of zazen vs other forms of meditation.

[ChiDragon]

Quoted for posterity…

 

 

I disagree. One good teacher is more valuable to the sincere student than every book ever written, in my opinion.

 

Yes, without the basic knowledge obtained from the books, then how can I evaluate who is a good teacher or not. Otherwise, how would I know that the teacher is not giving me a snow job.....???

[ChiDragon]

Hello ChiDragon. It appears to me that confusion and misunderstanding are universal. At least I have not encountered any dividing line between east and west. If we are relaxed and natural, then the breathing will naturally become soft, natural and deep. What is natural may change of its own accord and at its own time. We only need to relax and keep as natural as we can manage. My teacher called it da zuo, but that is just a name. The simple principles also seem universal.

 

Hello, NotVoid

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to divide the east and the west. I am looking at things from a view of a spectator. I am actually looking from left to right but it was just happened to be the east and west. Somehow, in your mind you had sensed a dividing line there because it was dictated by your subconscious. Anyway,I have been noticed every time when the words like "east and west" were mentioned, I do get some kind of reactionary response.

 

Ok, let's get back to the main point. If we are looking into a certain profession, we'll notice that there are many familiar words that we may have seen before. However, an outsider without knowing their esoteric meanings within the profession will have communication problems. Each term in a profession has its own special meaning. For example, in our case, Da Zou is not just simply a name for those who has more meaning attached to it. In the Taoist religion practice, it has a set of definitive conditions was assigned to it. It was not just breathing soft and let it be natural. This notion probably was inherited from some kind of fundamental philosophy in the past.

 

If one reads carefully in the above post about Da Zuo, it won't be just a name to a true Taoist. A true Taoist knows, as soon, he sits down he will emphasize in his breathing. He will expand his abdomen outward and inward while breathing in and out. That is the secret behind Da Zuo besides just sitting. Most people just do not realize that is what was going on in Da Zuo. BTW Did anyone of your teachers ever tell you that besides it is just a name.....???

Edited March 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

 

Yes, without the basic knowledge obtained from the books, then how can I evaluate who is a good teacher or not. Otherwise, how would I know that the teacher is not giving me a snow job.....???

 

You know when you see the positive changes in your life from what your teacher shows you.

[ChiDragon]

You know when you see the positive changes in your life from what your teacher shows you.

I will agree that a teacher can only shows something to a certain extent, but the positive changes will be coming from my own diligent practice. I think why that you are insisting to go to a teacher. However, if a person has no martial art ground at all, one can go to any teach to get a good start. After a while, one will realize is the teach any good or not. Fortunately, I hope he went to right one. Otherwise, he will be learning somebody's bad habits and never know what the real stuff.

 

I have notice the posts by the members of TTB. It seems to me lots of the things that they were saying are just took it for granted from their teacher. It was like that they only knew half of what they suppose to know. I don't know it was the way they had been taught or didn't catch the rest from their teachers.

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

I will agree that a teacher can only shows something to a certain extent, but the positive changes will be coming from my own diligent practice. I think why that you are insisting to go to a teacher. However, if a person has no martial art ground at all, one can go to any teach to get a good start. After a while, one will realize is the teach any good or not. Fortunately, I hope he went to right one. Otherwise, he will be learning somebody's bad habits and never know what the real stuff.

 

I have notice the posts by the members of TTB. It seems to me lots of the things that they were saying are just took it for granted from their teacher. It was like that they only knew half of what they suppose to know. I don't know it was the way they had been taught or didn't catch the rest from their teachers.

First off, this is a discussion about meditation, not martial arts. Martial arts are impossible to learn from books - meditation is even harder…

 

Secondly, you are concerned about getting bad habits from teachers. What about getting bad habits without even having the benefit of a teacher? A book cannot see or hear your mistakes and offer salient corrections. You cannot share your experience with a book or ask it questions. All you can do is try to follow written instructions and, when speaking about Daoist meditation in particular, the instructions are impossibly difficult to interpret - intentionally. You are infinitely more likely to develop bad habits without a teacher.

 

Of course we misunderstand our teachers sometimes, that's why we hopefully have more than one lesson.

 

Of course there are bad teachers but there are enough good ones out there and when the student is ready, as they say, the teacher will be there. And it is generally possible nowadays to get good information about most teachers by doing some homework. The internet is a very powerful tool. It was much more difficult in times past.

 

I know you prefer the books… these things don't tend to change.

I just don't think that is the best advice we can give people looking to begin a study of meditation.

I wish you well with your practice and study.

[ChiDragon]

Perhaps martial arts is not a good English term to sum up everything to include kung fu, Chi Kung, Negong, Weigong and Da Zuo. I just don't have a general term for it. In Chinese, I think 武功(Wugong) can be summed up with everything. Anyway, it is very difficult to communicate with the terms from one language to another without any misunderstanding. I think we both had some arguments back and forth, sometime ago, about finding and learning from a good teacher. With all respect, your points are well taken, I think this is a good time to end our endless arguments here as well. Thanks.

Best regards.

[ChiDragon]

During zazen, breathe through your nose and keep your mouth closed. (If you have a cold, or some kind of a nasal blockage, its okay to breathe through your mouth.) The tongue is pressed lightly against the upper palate—swallow once, to create a seal and reduce the need to salivate and swallow. The eyes are kept lowered, with your gaze resting on the ground about two or three feet in front of you. Your eyes will be mostly covered by your eyelids, which eliminates the necessity to blink repeatedly. The chin is slightly tucked in. Although zazen looks very disciplined, the muscles should be soft. There should be no tension in the body. It doesn’t take strength to keep the body straight. The nose is centered in line with the navel, the upper torso leaning neither forward nor back.

 

 

Ref:

Zazen

 

May I ask? Is this too hard to follow? Does anyone has to pay a high price instructor to tell what is there already available?

 

Btw There is still something missing here but it can be found elsewhere to put the pieces together. Is this effective? One will know the result from intuition and experience after a diligent practice in a certain time frame.

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The people who actually practice zazen, whether in Zen temples, centres, in the comfort of their own homes or sitting perched on a rock out in nature, are far closer to the Dao than anyone who drags articles from the Internet or argues about semantics.

 

Okay! That is where they practice Zazen. The question, here, is what is Zazen rather where does one practice it. I do take semantics very serious for the refinement of understanding. Thank you!

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[steve]

 

Self taught by following the concepts from reading all the good books and good source of information. They are much better than any teacher there was.

 

 

 

Yes, without the basic knowledge obtained from the books, then how can I evaluate who is a good teacher or not. Otherwise, how would I know that the teacher is not giving me a snow job.....???

 

I can't sign off without offering the following warning -

 

I would recommend that everyone follow ChiDragon's advice when following ChiDragon's teachings....

 

Caveat Emptor!

[Rara]

Catch 22. I always wondered myself. Finding a good teacher in anything is hard. Interpreting correctly from a book is also hard!

[ChiDragon]

Catch 22. I always wondered myself. Finding a good teacher in anything is hard. Interpreting correctly from a book is also hard!

 

It is a learning curve that we all have to go through. Initially it was hard, but don't put yourself in a stagnant state. Eventually, you will learn and improve by the failure encounters and successful experiences. It is only a matter of common sense and an open mind.

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I can't sign off without offering the following warning -

 

I would recommend that everyone follow ChiDragon's advice when following ChiDragon's teachings....

 

Caveat Emptor!

 

That is a very good advice. Everyone should take precaution with one's own discretion.

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[thelerner]

 

May I ask? Is this too hard to follow? Does anyone has to pay a high price instructor to tell what is there already available?

 

Btw There is still something missing here but it can be found elsewhere to put the pieces together. Is this effective? One will know the result from intuition and experience after a diligent practice in a certain time frame.

To follow, not really, but there is minutiae- little things, that not only are easy to get wrong, but easy to slip into unconsciously. Things like, keep your back straight. Many is the time a senior would make small adjustments to my body. At times the most comfortable position was not the ideal one. In a formal class (not zazen, but meditation) after awhile, my back get rounded and I'd be corrected.

 

To get into really small stuff there'd be a practice where you'd observe a meditator and they broke mushin, small stuff, a break in breathing, a tightening of the face or body due to fleeting thought (in lyrical terms a cloud passing over them) you'd pat'em on the shoulder. Not a practice we'd often do, but sometimes. Without experience we'd often fail within a few minutes.

 

Some dojo's would have a tester not just look, but actively try to knock you over and the test was to just be. Very hard. Even now I've found something as small as a insect landing on me rocks my meditation.

 

Sometimes we're unaware of what we don't know. And teachers with decades of experience can open our eyes, and teach us be 'just so'.

[ChiDragon]

I wouldn't click the "Like" button for the above post so soon, if I were you, without finding the flaws in it. The reason I clicked was because it helps me to use as a good example for my next post.

Before I give my secret away, I would like to hear the thoughts from some of the Taoist cultivators here. This will reveal your 道行(level of Taoist cultivation).

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

To follow, not really, but there is minutiae- little things, that not only are easy to get wrong, but easy to slip into unconsciously. Things like, keep your back straight. Many is the time a senior would make small adjustments to my body. At times the most comfortable position was not the ideal one. In a formal class (not zazen, but meditation) after awhile, my back get rounded and I'd be corrected.

May I ask, did your meditation teacher mention any kind of breathing at all....???

Edited March 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

To follow, not really, but there is minutiae- little things, that not only are easy to get wrong, but easy to slip into unconsciously. Things like, keep your back straight. Many is the time a senior would make small adjustments to my body. At times the most comfortable position was not the ideal one. In a formal class (not zazen, but meditation) after awhile, my back get rounded and I'd be corrected.

 

To get into really small stuff there'd be a practice where you'd observe a meditator and they broke mushin, small stuff, a break in breathing, a tightening of the face or body due to fleeting thought (in lyrical terms a cloud passing over them) you'd pat'em on the shoulder. Not a practice we'd often do, but sometimes. Without experience we'd often fail within a few minutes.

 

Some dojo's would have a tester not just look, but actively try to knock you over and the test was to just be. Very hard. Even now I've found something as small as a insect landing on me rocks my meditation.

 

Sometimes we're unaware of what we don't know. And teachers with decades of experience can open our eyes, and teach us be 'just so'.

First of all, I don't expect everything to be perfect at the beginning. It takes time for the body to adjust for a certain position which the body was not accustomed to. Of cause the comfortable position(CP) was not the ideal one, it is because the CP is not your own CP for you to be comfortable with. Throughout the early years of one's life, one had been picking up some bad habits of gestures and trained the muscle to be out of shape. Besides, the method of "meditation" is very unclear what exactly it was trying to accomplish with the kind of instructions given. From the readable literature, it says is better for the mind. However, the instructions in meditation and Zazen about breathing has not been emphasized enough as in Dazuo. I will point them out in the next post.

 

Secondly, if one wasn't taught to breathe properly while sitting in a kind of lotus position, the body will become fatigue and sleepy regardless how perfect the sitting posture was.

Edited March 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[thelerner]

 

May I ask, did your meditation teacher mention any kind of breathing at all....???

Sure, dozens of not 100's of hours. They separated out breathing exercises, from meditation ones. I'm mostly writing about experience in Ki-Aikido, the meditation done during Ki-classes. Breathing was done through the nose, always keeping in and out even and quiet. At times it'd be very formal and the person leading the class would clap, and you'd breathe in slowly, he'd clap and you'd breathe out slowly. He'd get visual feedback from the group, but he'd gradually lengthen the amount of time during breath to about 25 seconds. Most often a 50 second breath cycle.

 

An assistance would often make adjustments to peoples seated posture.

 

You assume a beginner won't be perfect. I assume someone meditating for years, will also slip into not being perfect. Unless you're filming yourself, its easy to slip without knowing it. Such perfect posture may not be the most important thing in the world, still, I've seen people in meditation, just sitting. And I'm impressed as hell. clearly visible amongst dozens of other practitioners, you can see decades of practice in there posture, part of that is a general wah, air about them, but its is 100% there.

 

The ki-classes worked on the basics sitting, standing, breathing, meditating. Oh, you were judged on how your belly, chest and shoulders moved. We learned how to walk properly. Without the practice given, I 'd probably fail the tests and I'm not walking properly these days. One kind of test would be someone infront of you with there hand out and could you effortlessly walk through them, no change pace or effort.

[ChiDragon]

Ki-Aikido.....

Okay! You are not giving me the story straight. Ki-Aikido is the Japanese style Chi Kung which is called 氣-合氣道. It is different from the western style Meditation. Anyway, Ki-Aikido do perform Dazuo in their breathing practice.

[ChiDragon]

Just to save time, let me just point out how Dazuo is different from other meditation styles. It has been known that Dazuo(打坐) is universal and standard in the Chinese Taoist practice. It is also my standard to go by in my practice. In addition, it is the style that I am using to compare with so-called meditation styles for effectiveness. IMO Dazuo has a much more clearer description than other styles. Its definition has been narrowed down to more explicit which very straight forward and easy to follow. It is the most effective way to invigorate and vitalize a human body. IMO anyway!

The description for Dazuo is down pad in my heart. Dazuo is a form of internal practice, in three folds, regulates the breathing, enhance the body and inspire the mind. I had bee doing this to save me from kundalini. Indeed, regulates the breathing is integral part of me. My body and mind have been changed quite drastically since I have become enlightened with the understanding about Dazuo. From the constant practice, I can breathe easier, think clearer and my physical strength has increased immensely. No longer have prolong fatigue from strenuous yard work. I can pull a big weed with its roots right out of the ground without breaking it. I can cut up a cooked chicken with bones and all in 5 minutes. Each cut is only one blow if I do it right the first time.

There is one thing one should know about "regulating the breathing". It doesn't mean breathe soft and natural. It is because it was only normal breathing and no regulation was taken place. Regulating the breathing is much more aggressive; it is breathing like a baby with the abdomen.

As far as I know, Zazen is equivalent to Dazuo. Zazen is a Hindu Buddhist term which was borrowed by the Chinese as a translation for Dazuo.

PS......
I shouldn't be shy about mentioning the come back of the libido.

Edited March 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[LAOLONG]

in zen the concept is of anatman noself,so you sit empty mind.

in Taoism the energy of shen shine in the enpty mind.

in zazen you are yin in mind.

in Taoist meditation you are yang in mind.

[ChiDragon]

There is a big difference in the description about the breathing method between Meditation and Dazuo. Meditation says breathe softly and natural while Dazuo says to regulate the breathing. It seems that Meditation did not take breathing too serious as the Taoists did in Dazuo. Regulating the breathing is the key to any practice of Wugong(武功). Wugong is a general term which includes every practice there is to enhance the ability of the body to perform some extraordinary tasks, e.g., from Kung Fu to Neigong practices.

An intense Chi Kung practitioner will know what regulating the breathing is all about. Anyone can be snowed easily by someone telling you that Chi Kung is all about "energy works". People love to hear the word "energy", therefore, they will be paying someone to say the word for them to hear. Sometimes, I even have someone in the forum tells me Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing. Well, of course, excuse me. It has nothing to do with just normal breathing but it has alot to do with regulating the breathing.

[ChiDragon]

How does a Chi Kung practitioner regulates the breathing.

Someone says breathe softly and normally during meditation. Well, is the meditation breathing any different than an ordinary person.....??? If nothing was different, then one should not expect any noticeable result from it. That being said, something must be done extraordinary in Chi Kung to have a significant result. Indeed, Chi Kung practice does something extraordinary is by regulating the breathing.

Regulating the breathing involves two things. One is to regulate the volume of air intake into the lungs; and the other is to regulate the time duration of breathing. This simple breathing method is effectively modulate the metabolism process inside the human body. One may not have any biological or physiological knowledge, just by performing the Chi Kung breathing method will have an enormous health improvement upon the human body.

For those who are interested, a thorough explanation can be done more explicitly with modern scientific knowledge. Of course, one must be open minded and willing to explore new ideas without any bias.

Edited March 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

趺坐調氣
Obviously, this monk is at the Dazuo position, is he meditating or regulating his breathing....???

[ChiDragon]

This the 30 Days Meditation Challenge.

.....But its also nice to share the meditative experience with someone else. You feel less like this is a feat you must do alone, and find comfort in the sounds of inhalation and exhalation of your meditation partner. In a strange way, it keeps you grounded. - See more at: http://www.holisticv...h.dVG9dRtY.dpuf

In meditation, most of the time, breathing was merely mentioned in a light tone but not strongly emphasized as in Dazuo: regulating the breathing.

Edited March 20, 2014 by ChiDragon