Vitalii Posted November 14, 2013 Wang Chungyang in 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said: "Someone asked, “What are the subtle principles for cultivating perfection (xiuzhen 修真)?” Perfected Chongyang responded, “First, you must remove ignorance and vexations. Second, you must get rid of greed and craving, alcohol and sex, wealth and anger. This is the method of cultivation." “First, you must observe the precepts and develop clarity, stillness, forbearance, compassion, genuineness, and goodness. You must abstain from the ten evils, practice expedient means, and strive to save all sentient beings. You must also be loyal to the ruler and king, and be fi lial and reverent to parents and teachers. This is the method of cultivation. Then and only then can you practice the exercises of perfection." Translated by Louis Komjathy 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 14, 2013 Use of ordinary mind-consciousness to comprehend the Original Reality is nonsense, since the original reality is beyond ones understanding and comprehension. The Original Reality can be comprehended only by the Original Spirit. The tradition says about going beyond the ordinary finite mind, and that Dao cannot be comprehended by use of reflections or other functions of ordinary mind-consciousness (and anything associated with them). Therefore, it is important not just to know the right methods, but also to be able to use them correctly. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) "Meditation was one of the primary spiritual disciplines embraced and advocated by the early Quanzhen adepts. Posturally speaking, meditation most often involves seated postures, although there are forms of meditation which utilize standing and supine body configurations and which emphasize meditation as an all-pervasive existential approach. In terms of early Quanzhen, “meditation” is a larger category of religious praxis that most often involves “sitting,” referred to variously as “seated meditation” (dazuo 打坐), “quiet sitting” (jingzuo 靜坐), “sitting cross-legged” (jiafu zuo 跏趺坐), or “aligned sitting” (zhengzuo 正坐). Early Quanzhen meditative praxis may, in turn, be considered in terms of three primary sub-disciplines: (1) Cultivating clarity and stillness (qingjing 清靜), (2) Inner observation (neiguan 內觀), and (3) Internal alchemy (neidan 內丹)." Louis Komjathy Edited November 15, 2013 by Vitalii 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) "While the early Quanzhen adepts engaged in prolonged periods of seated meditation and advocated seated meditation as a foundational practice, emphasis was also placed on meditation as a larger approach towards being. In addition to practicing actual seated meditation, Quanzhen practitioners aspired to embody a meditative presence, whether meditating in a secluded hut or engaging in public missionary activity. On the most basic level, Quanzhen meditation practice involves “settling” or “stabilizing” (ding 定) the heart-mind. Concern over sensory phenomena must be reduced, desires must be calmed, and intellectual activity must be stilled. Through this process of meditative discipline, the Quanzhen adept could allow the heart-mind to return to its original condition, namely, a lodging place for spirit. The adept could return to innate nature, his or her original endowment from, connection with, and embodiment of the Dao." Louis Komjathy Edited November 17, 2013 by Vitalii Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣修真妙理: The principle of cultivating the genuineness(真) 第一先除無名煩惱。Firstly, one must get rid of the unknown vexations.第二休貪戀酒色財氣Secondly, do not be indulged in alcohol, sex and wealth(財氣).五行之法:The method of the five musts第一先須持戒。清靜。忍辱。慈悲。實善。斷除十惡。行方便。救度一切眾生。忠君王。孝敬父母師資First, one must observe all the commandments, remain in serenity, endure of insults, be merciful, and be kind.斷除十惡。行方便。救度一切眾生。忠君王。孝敬父母師Eliminate the ten evils, be convenient for others, save all living beings, loyal to the ruler, filial and respect parents and teachers.Ref: 金關玉鎖訣 Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taomen Posted November 17, 2013 To get rid and do not be indulged it's not the same 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taomen Posted November 17, 2013 Vitalii did you tried to translate some texts by yourself? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) 第二休貪戀酒色財氣 Secondly, do not be indulged in alcohol, sex and wealth(財氣). 第二休貪戀酒色財氣 第二 - second 休 - don't 貪戀 - to cling to 酒色財氣 [idiom] - wine, sex, avarice and temper/anger Vitalii did you tried to translate some texts by yourself? Yes, I translated this text [and many other] from Chinese to Russian. Edited November 17, 2013 by Vitalii Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 To get rid and do not be indulged it's not the same It was obviously that they are not the same........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 It was obviously that they are not the same........ of course Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 第二休貪戀酒色財氣 第二 - second 休 - don't 貪戀 - to cling to 酒色財氣 [idiom] - wine, sex, avarice and temper/anger Yes, I translated this text [and many other] from Chinese to Russian. This is translation from a Chinese to English. 貪戀: indulge with avarice. 財氣(compound character) means wealth. Logic wise, as a canon, a Taoist or a Buddhist would not like to encounter something external like alcohol, sex and wealth. However, anger does not seem to be fit into this category. It should be fit into the First rule: 第一先除無名煩惱。 Firstly, one must get rid of the unknown vexations. Anger should considered as vexation as opposed to leisure as alcohol, women and money. Besides, the proper translation for 財 or 財氣 is wealth. I know why you have translated 氣 as anger, it was from 生氣. However, it is not the case here. The character 氣 has lots of different meanings depends on the compound characters and context. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 This is translation from a Chinese to English. 貪戀: indulge with avarice. 財氣(compound character) means wealth. Logic wise, as a canon, a Taoist or a Buddhist would not like to encounter something external like alcohol, sex and wealth. However, anger does not seem to be fit into this category. It should be fit into the First rule: 第一先除無名煩惱。 Firstly, one must get rid of the unknown vexations. Anger should considered as vexation as opposed to leisure as alcohol, women and money. Besides, the proper translation for 財 or 財氣 is wealth. I know why you have translated 氣 as anger, it was from 生氣. However, it is not the case here. The character 氣 has lots of different meanings depends on the compound characters and context. 酒色財氣 it is an idiom which means - "wine, sex, avarice and temper-anger" http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=%E9%85%92%E8%89%B2%E8%B2%A1%E6%B0%A3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Who did that translation.....??? That is very misleading. The logic does not hold as I had indicated in the above post.Whoever did the translation, it needs to be corrected,...!!!My advice to you is: Test the translation for logic, don't accept it blindly if it doesn't make sense. Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 17, 2013 "While the early Quanzhen adepts engaged in prolonged periods of seated meditation and advocated seated meditation as a foundational practice, emphasis was also placed on meditation as a larger approach towards being. In addition to practicing actual seated meditation, Quanzhen practitioners aspired to embody a meditative presence, whether meditating in a secluded hut or engaging in public missionary activity. Louis Komjathy So sad for Quanzhen, when scholars (not even researches) try to explain the Quanzhen teaching by quoting another scholar... Definitely Dazuo practice makes mind blind and not sharp. Is it so hard to understand, that Wang Chongyang taught different systems in different time and to different people? Is it so hard to guess that Quanzhen is not a mix of ideas from Ma Danyang, Qiu Chuji and other patriarchs? In books everything is mixed up, I know, but only by practising Dazuo it's possible not to see such obvious facts. So basically you just pointed out that in the West, in spite of so many translated books, Quanzhen is not understood even on a very basic level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 Who did that translation.....??? That is very misleading. The logic does not hold as I had indicated in the above post. Whoever did the translation, it has to be corrected,...!!! My advice to you: Test the translation for the logic, don't accept it blindly if it doesn't make sense. Sorry, but you are wrong 酒色财气出自南朝·宋·范晔《后汉书·杨秉传》。泛指各种不良品德、习气。且有关北宋苏东坡的成语趣事 http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%E9%85%92%E8%89%B2%E8%B2%A1%E6%B0%A3 http://baike.baidu.com/view/101607.htm 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 "Louis Komjathy is a scholar-practitioner of Daoism and an ordained Daoist priest of the Huashan 華山 (Mount Hua) lineage of Quanzhen (Complete Perfection) Daoism." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) "Louis Komjathy is a scholar-practitioner of Daoism and an ordained Daoist priest of the Huashan 華山 (Mount Hua) lineage of Quanzhen (Complete Perfection) Daoism." So what, you're trying to hide behind his back? I've read all that when he created his "order" many years ago. Now he changed the web-site and removed the name of his teacher. Why? There are some good fiction books about him in Chinese.... He teaches Dazuo as Xing and Daoyin as a Ming method. You can buy it because it follows your ideas, but I don't take it seriously, because of his mistaken ideas and intention to build a "meditation system" for the West. It's not a traditional way to water down the system just for the sake of commodity of ignorant people. Quanzhen is very different for various teachers. But it was made very simple by Wang Chongyang. And Neidan plays there a very special, limited role. Without understanding that, all these translations and wise words are in vain, because people just see what they got used to see: meditation, meditation, meditation... "Avoid sex and alcohol, sit dumb and you will understand Dao". LOL. Edited November 17, 2013 by opendao 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Sorry, but you are wrong 酒色财气出自南朝·宋·范晔《后汉书·杨秉传》。泛指各种不良品德、习气。且有关北宋苏东坡的成语趣事 http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%E9%85%92%E8%89%B2%E8%B2%A1%E6%B0%A3 http://baike.baidu.com/view/101607.htm Sorry, we both are half wrong. Based on your reference: 酒: Alcohol 色: Sexual desire 财: Wealth 气: Sentimental These four things are taboos for cultivation. Would you settle for that...??? Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 Sorry, we both are half wrong. Based on your reference: 酒: Alcohol 色: Sexual desire 财: Wealth 气: Sentimental These four things are taboos for cultivation. Would you settle for that...??? 于是,就在了元题诗右侧题上《和佛印禅师诗》一首。其诗云: “饮酒不醉是英豪,恋色不迷最为高;不义之财不可取,有气不生气自消。” Therefore, I prefer to translate: 酒 - Alcohol 色 - Sexual desire 财 - Wealth / avarice / 气 - temper / anger / pride Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) 于是,就在了元题诗右侧题上《和佛印禅师诗》一首。其诗云: “饮酒不醉是英豪,恋色不迷最为高;不义之财不可取,有气不生气自消。” Therefore, I prefer to translate: 财 - Wealth / avarice / 气 - temper / anger / pride 不义之财不可取, Undesirable wealth is not for one to take. 有气不生气自消。 If one does not release anger, then the anger will be vanished by itself. I don't see how avarice fits into 财 nor pride fits into 气.....!!! I prefer 气 as sentimental is because it is connected with emotions rather than reason. Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) I don't see how avarice fits into 财 Wealth is not vice, but avarice and greed are vices. nor pride fits into 气. ok then 气 - temper / anger I prefer 气 as sentimental is because it is connected with emotions rather than reason. ok Edited November 17, 2013 by Vitalii 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Wealth is not vice, but avarice and greed are vices. OK..... I can see avarice for wealth or sex. Nothing more....!!! However, it is a matter looking from a different angle but the conclusion is still the same. Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) 于是,就在了元题诗右侧题上《和佛印禅师诗》一首。其诗云: “饮酒不醉是英豪,恋色不迷最为高;不义之财不可取,有气不生气自消。” Therefore, I prefer to translate: 酒 - Alcohol 色 - Sexual desire 财 - Wealth / avarice / 气 - temper / anger / pride You are generally correct.. we just need a good translation to english to clear the air. These four lines are parallel in structure and meaning... that is the logic to translating and understanding it: 饮酒不醉是英豪 - To drink but not be drunk (be intoxicated), one is advanced (higher control over formalities) 恋色不迷最为高 - To be in love but not be controlled by it, is most high (higher control over sensual emotions) 不义之财不可取 - To wrongly take wealth yet do not take it. (higher control over wealth/avarice) 有气不生气自消 - To have a feeling yet not be angry, the anger has been eliminated from oneself (higher control over strong emotions) Edit: Original third line and basic meaning: If wealth can be wrongly taken, don't take it Edited November 17, 2013 by dawei 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baiqi Posted November 17, 2013 So sad for Quanzhen, when scholars (not even researches) try to explain the Quanzhen teaching by quoting another scholar... Definitely Dazuo practice makes mind blind and not sharp. Is it so hard to understand, that Wang Chongyang taught different systems in different time and to different people? Is it so hard to guess that Quanzhen is not a mix of ideas from Ma Danyang, Qiu Chuji and other patriarchs? In books everything is mixed up, I know, but only by practising Dazuo it's possible not to see such obvious facts. So basically you just pointed out that in the West, in spite of so many translated books, Quanzhen is not understood even on a very basic level. Quanzhen teachers do not avocate dazuo only. Nor does Komjathy (I posted another thread, a video of him teaching meditation, he give some explanations after the dazuo session. He basically said that for some people, walking or standing is better) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Wealth is not vice, but avarice and greed are vices. OK..... I can see avarice for wealth or sex. Nothing more....!!! However, it is a matter looking from a different angle but the conclusion is still the same. I do consider your train of thought. However, wealth and avarice are two different ideas. One may link them from one to another but "avarice" cannot be forced to fit into the linguistic definition of 財(wealth). Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites