opendao

Neidan vs Qigong

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O.K. so then ZOOM shared his enlightenment energy experience and said that I could probably quote from Taoist Yoga to confirm his experience. Indeed Taoist Yoga shares a similar experience of the person's face seemingly falling back into his head, down into his body, and then he experiences the Tai Chi. So Zoom though insists that Taoist Yoga teaches in the first chapter that the energy is somehow "shot down" to the lower tan tien. Zoom has made this claim several times but he has never quoted from Taoist Yoga to back up his claim. I urge him to do so - I have no idea what you are referring to Zoom.

 

Taoist Yoga pdf page 16

When original or prenatal spirit manifests thus, it should

be driven into the Iower tan t’ien centre under the navel to

fix it there.

Edited by ZOOM

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Would you enlighten us?

Im waiting for the Wulipai guys and so forth. ;)

 

Ralis, Zoom and so forth your not wrong.....To be honest

 

All we can do as taoist is be utterly honest with ourselves.

 

Taoist accept other practitioners....

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Whether it's true or not, I can't help but be drawn to this consideration: he provides a fairly complete and direct thing to experiment with; you seem to really only provide the seeds of doubt.

 

After near 50 pages, by the content, we're not too far from where things began....That, to me, seems unnecessarily roundabout.

 

....This will probably get the perennial "neidan is a comoplex science; it is detailed to the point that meaningful instruction cannot be transmitted over the internet; but, we're open and want to spread the understanding and offer help...."

 

---No severe offense is intended but there does seem to be something out of sorts here.

 

 

I've never tried to discuss methods, and the OP is not discussing methods either, only discuss scriptures and theory - which is all that can realistically be spoken about in a on-line forum. Not many seem to get the fact that there is no methods in texts, despite many times having much proof presented, so that is why discussions don't get far.

 

I provide doubt because there is a lot of doubt in what's being said. And this can be backed up by using texts, and has been done several times on TTB. But many people here don't even want to discuss texts and think they are more experienced and have more valuable things to say then Masters of Quanzhen Schools.

 

JinlianPai, it is a complex science. Methods are generally simple and not complicated, but theory and entire knowledge of all universal processes is not 'simple' and you cannot get true understanding from flowing with the flow and reading Wikipedia pages, and expect to have complete understanding life and death. Daoists accept true methods and nothing more, Daoist crush false schools to preserve genuine Daoist teachings. Being a Daoist is not about being soft and accepting of all things, especially at the cost of corrupting Daoist teachings. It is about standing for truth, and discarding all that does not assist the way to heaven.

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One issue with receiving instructions is that usually every detail is said for a reason. When there's an old translated text that might not be legitimate in the first place, there are contradictions within it...or at the very least, there seem to be. Or more importantly for us, some details aren't noticed, due to being not so obvious upon the first thousand readings. Usually a teacher can point those things out, but in the absence of one, you can go on forever without even seeing what's right on the page.

For instance, TY says the following in a brief paragraph in Chapter 1:

"Therefore, during the training both eyes should turn inward to the center (between and behind them) in order to hold onto this One which should be held in the original cavity of spirit (tsu ch'iao) with neither strain nor relaxation; this is called fixing spirit in its original cavity which should be where (essential) nature is cultivated and the root from which (eternal) life emerges."

Upon first reading, it might make sense to "focus in the center of the head". But that's not picking up on the fact that it mentions turning the eyes back toward that area as a key aspect. Using the eyes isn't all, though...it mentions holding onto the One in that area. What does that mean? Do we know what the One is? It also mentions to do this without strain and relaxation...are we sure this is the most correct translation? Could it mean that "focusing" or relocating our awareness is a form of straining, and would be contraindicated for the practice (in SOTGF terms, it would not be "turning the light around"; in other terms it would be "inferior virtue" of doing, rather than "superior virtue" of non-doing)...and perhaps "relaxing" in this chapter means losing awareness such as passing out or going off into thoughts, rather than simply a state of being relaxed in the conventional English sense of the word (which would be ideal)?

(On the subject of translation...maybe the eyes turning inward isn't such a physical movement of them, as it is a diminishing of awareness of the visual sense...I don't know, but it's another thing to question about this short paragraph)

Just wanted to point out this example.

Also, I think all readers of this book might be missing the point even from Chapter 1...thinking that fixing spirit means something other than what it actually meant in the teachings this book came from. Spirit is a translation of mercury...and this is an alchemical text rather than a practical one. Anyone who has read it knows that it's obtuse, and only small aspects of the book give very clear instruction on various things. So perhaps we have to understand symbolism of these alchemical things in order to understand the overall point...in order to actually practice, instead of practice the wrong thing.

Edited by Aetherous
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I've never tried to discuss methods, and the OP is not discussing methods either, only discuss scriptures and theory - which is all that can realistically be spoken about in a on-line forum. Not many seem to get the fact that there is no methods in texts, despite many times having much proof presented, so that is why discussions don't get far.

 

This is a malicious lie with the goal to give power exclusively to schools and authorities.

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I've never tried to discuss methods, and the OP is not discussing methods either, only discuss scriptures and theory - which is all that can realistically be spoken about in a on-line forum. Not many seem to get the fact that there is no methods in texts, despite many times having much proof presented, so that is why discussions don't get far.

 

I provide doubt because there is a lot of doubt in what's being said. And this can be backed up by using texts, and has been done several times on TTB. But many people here don't even want to discuss texts and think they are more experienced and have more valuable things to say then Masters of Quanzhen Schools.

 

 

 

Of course there is doubt, given that no substantive evidence has been produced. Seems as if the OP is looking for converts to the super secret teachings. Secret teachings are one of the characteristics of cult groups.

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Of course there is doubt, given that no substantive evidence has been produced. Seems as if the OP is looking for converts to the super secret teachings. Secret teachings are one of the characteristics of cult groups.

 

Exactly.

Let's talk about the success rate of the Wu-Liu Pai method:

So everybody who joins the school becomes an Immortal...?

How many percent of the students who join the school are successful in becoming immortals,

and how many percent of the students fail?

And where is the evidence that their method works at all and which should motivate people to become students and join the school?

Edited by ZOOM

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Your talking about things that can't be proven online. What is in texts is what we can discuss, keep talking about wanting proofs of immortals...no such sense to keep mentioning this. No such things will ever take place. You find immortals and learn from them, Immortals have no interest in finding you, and proving anything to you :excl:



"This is a malicious lie with the goal to give power exclusively to schools and authorities."

 

Man...no words... enjoy your day.

 

I will reply to you Apeiron&Peiron later.

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http://all-dao.com/wuliupai-school.html

 

If we talk about our transmission,
the WuLiuPai school
, continuing the tradition of the Dragon Gate Perfect Truth school (LongMenPai)
has collected best practices of all methods of alchemy, Buddhist methods of practice, other methods of practicing Taoist schools, and joined all them into a single system.
Thus our school forms the WuLiuPai school, separate from the LongMenPai. Since the establishment of the school have passed more than 400 years, it has received extensive development and continues unabated. And still its foundation is strong, and successes are numerous, the number of Tao practitioners in our school is large.

 

Why was it necessary to construct a new system out of methods of the systems of many old buddhist, taoist and probably even confucianist schools?

 

Did all these systems not work in the opinion of the Wu Liu Pai founders?

Or did they simply believe to "know better" than these old established schools?

Edited by ZOOM

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Taoist Yoga pdf page 16

Quote

When original or prenatal spirit manifests thus,
it should

be driven into the Iower tan t’ien centre under the navel to

fix it there.

 

 

I want to first of all thank Zoom for actually quoting a full sentence of Taoist Yoga (compared to the super-secret Neidan school).

 

Now keep in mind - I didn't say the information wasn't there - simply I didn't know what you were referring to.

 

Now that you provided the quote - I realize I am aware of that passage and indeed I am glad you have emphasized it, since it's a crucial sentence.

 

Why is it crucial?

 

Because if you keep studying Taoist Yoga you find that actually the sentence you are perturbed about is the whole focus of chapter six and chapter seven.

 

Now maybe you don't believe me and you want me to quote - but I do think you believe me and you can check it out yourself.

 

So the phrase "it should be driven into the lower tan t'ien" - it is first returned to again as a certain type of fire practice described in Chapter 5 where the various types of fire are detailed - alchemy being all based on fire.

 

So, I'm going by memory here, but it seems to be that to "drive the spirit down" is to use the fire of the heart to do so.

 

Now - perhaps I'm just more interested in practicing than looking up the quotes. haha.

 

As you know I have quoted a lot from the Taoist Yoga book already.

 

But so chapter five indicates that it is fire of the spirit but then says that chapter six and seven will give the full details of that technique of fire.

 

So as I said before in my own practice I got up to chapter six but since I had not studied that enough I didn't not realize its crucial importance and so I was not able to seal up the chi - or to End the Leakage as it is described in the book that Taoist Yoga is based on.

 

So to seal up the chi - to "bake it" as the analogy is used of firing clay bricks - so that the clay will be prevented from turning back into water (i.e. fluid that is lost).....

 

This technique requires very much like the Golden Flower - the focus of chapter six is the rotating of the eyes to seal up the qi - because each eye - one is the Tai Chi as the Lunar energy (the built up yin chi energy that connects back to the heart as the dragon) while the other is the Solar as the tiger - the yang chi as the true lead of the jing, water - eternal life.

 

Now to be honest I have to go back and study that chapter more - to discern the specifics more of the meanings of the two eyes.

 

But the point being by rotating the eyes those two spirit lights merge together to create the prenatal spirit qi energy - and this enables the deep serenity that opens up the inner cell of the lower tan t'ien. And so - this is actually a nonduality experience and practice but only truly achieved after the lower tan t'ien is filled up with yin chi energy.

 

At that stage in the practice you can go without food and water - at first one night - and no sleep - then one week and then a month, etc.

 

So for me - I stumbled into this without fully understanding it - so I went a week with just a half glass of water and needing less sleep as it went on - while the yang qi kept increasing.

 

The point being Zoom - as people have said - to stabilize the energy requires to keep storing it up in the lower tan t'ien.

 

Now what is quite - well hard to describe - is that at this point in the practice the whole body is filled with electromagnetic energy - as the yang qi builds up - and so literally the centers of the hands, feet and top of head are pulsating with chi.

 

So with that ability then the electromagnetic energy can convert whatever is needed chemically in the body - oxygen, water, and nutrients. It's not just a normal electromagnetic energy more like electrogravitic energy.

 

Because also at this stage then you can get a spacetime vortex if the yin shen leaves the body - and that is detailed in chapter 11 - the dizziness. It also says that after the first experience of deep serenity - the one night - you come out of it confused from that first real taste of Emptiness.

 

That is indeed what happened to me.

 

So - now the question of stabilizing that energy - as I said - I saw dead spirits - that floated in from outside to hover around the qigong master and I said nothing to no one but he confirmed that indeed he was healing those dead people.

 

I also saw the yin shen spirits that the qigong master created repeatedly out of the top of his head, each one breaking off and floating out to heal people - each one specifically created for each person being healed.

 

So the point being - that when the Cavity of Original Spirit is activated as the Tai Chi experience then it is positive spirit in the sense that the light is seen outside of your head - not just inside the head - ....

 

And so - to stabilize this requires to envelop the yin shen with more yang qi in the lower tan t'ien and this is how Chapter 10 details the practice - the immortal breathing - so the small universe as this stage has the prenatal qi going in one direction while the yang qi goes in the other direction.

 

There are other parts in the book where the teacher describes his practice of driving the spirit down to his lower tan t'ien.

 

But it's important to keep in mind that the prenatal spirit is more than just light - but the spirit-vitality that is itself manifested as the lower tan t'ien.

 

So - as Master Nan, Huai-chin points out - the experiences at this stage are not literally the spirit rises out of the top of the head, etc. I mean - yes I did see that happening - but the only way I could see it happening was that I was already holographically, in a sense, transformed past-death - into that astral realm - and so too your own physical body is transformed.

 

In other words - the lower tan t'ien isn't limited to a physical location despite it being focused as such - the energy is holographically interactive with the Emptiness itself as a kind of spacetime vortex that is continuously generating energy.

 

For example the original qigong master said that he can now see light in his lower tan t'ien all the time - just by turning the light around - focusing on the Emptiness.

 

So yes - all of this I did not understand at the time since I had not studied Taoist Yoga and certainly as I said I need to study what that means more - the two eyes - and yes that is the secret of the Golden Flower.

 

The thing is - that unless the heart is totally pure with virtue then chapter one can not be achieved on its own - and this is repeated later in the book in chapter six and seven and later. It is stated that indeed the masters taught that all was needed was to drive or "fix" the spirit in the lower tan tien as is taught in chapter one.

 

So what this means is that "knowing the location" of the Center of Prenatal Vitality - the center of the brain as the pineal gland - is not enough - since the Tai Chi is an experience of positive spirit that is nondualistic - it is "neither this, nor that," the neti, neti logic of Buddhism as is repeated in Taoist Yoga.

 

Now - so as Nan, Huai-chin teaches people can access any of these realms of experience but that is different than stabilizing at that level.

 

So for me what happened is that I began to stop practicing just because the energy was too powerful! And so then the qigong master stuck his finger to my forehead and he shot shen qi into the center of my brain and then I felt this strong magnetic bliss in the center of my brain.

 

Now at that point my energy channels had already been closing up but I knew that the qigong master had caught sort of the tail end of what was left of my training to leverage the work I had done.

 

But then I got real curious - did what the qigong master - would it be permanent or would that go away also? Because you have to realize - I actually moved nine times in one year - I mean the experience - I could feel people's energy in the other apartments in the building I lived in. I suddenly realized I was surrounded by people with all these energy blockages and I was interacting with the blockages - I was actually sucking up people's illnesses like some electromagnetic vacuum cleaner. haha.

 

O.K. so then I stopped practicing for a couple months and my energy channels really closed up but sure enough that magnetic bliss in the center of the brain did not go away.

 

So that is the Cavity of PreNatal Vitality - the pineal gland connection to the qi of the Emptiness itself.

 

As Taoist Yoga says - there is no "wondrous light" in the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality. Not yet - the Cavity of Original Spirit as the Upper Tan T'ien does not exist - not until the training is done! But again when that is achieved the light is not just internal nor is it just external - it is a nondualistic holographic experience. This can become permanent.

 

So what happens as per the small universe training, is that the increased yin chi energy from the lower tan tien then feeds the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality - so that there can be increased Emptiness focus which then actually increases the spirit energy of the Cavity of Spirit.

 

Now think about it - how could the qigong master create "yin shen" after "yin shen" - multiple yin shens - each one different for the purpose of healing different people?

 

That is actually prenatal spirit energy in action - through that deep small universe practice of alchemical transformation.

 

I'm not saying I understand it - but I do think that studying Taoist Yoga more will reveal more answers.

 

For example the heart as the Cavity of the Spirit is also the source of the Dragon but the Dragon, alchemically, is hidden in the Tiger - to create the Lower Tan T'ien.

 

So how does that happen? It happens because the Cavity of PreNatal Vitality is the Emptiness focus of qi energy - that actually increases the qi energy of the Cavity of Spirit and envelops the spirit fire - since the Yuan Qi is more powerful than the Yin Chi that is the heart fire.

 

That is how then, when the yin chi is sublimated, by the Quick Fire, strong breathing, that it then creates more prenatal qi energy.

 

What Neidan emphasizes is that there is not enough standing active exercise in the beginning - but Taoist Yoga explains why this is so crucial - because Taoist Yoga repeatedly explains, as per the book it is based on, that unless there is strong Quick Fire, then the qi will get deconverted back into fluid and lost out of the body.

 

So at first, when the lower tan t'ien is built up, as Chapter One states - the Patriarch feared that the student would not know the proper method and so when the positive spirit as prenatal qi manifests in the lower tan tien it causes the penis to shiver and then the qi turns back into fluid and it is lost.

 

So the first step is to master the Quick Fire method. What I recommend is the horse stand with the thighs parallel to the ground.

 

The original qigong master trained like that at Shaolin - two hours, no moving, each day, horse stance, thighs parallel to the ground.

 

Now to do that, the lower tan t'ien has to already be filled up with qi energy - yin chi energy - or else you simply don't have the strength to not move for 2 hours like that.

 

So what is really going on???!!

 

What happened - at the end of three months - his third eye was fully open.

 

In other words - he had "laid the foundation" and - had achieved up to Chapter 8 of Taoist YOga - and how --

 

He, by doing 2 hours of horse stance like that thighs parallel to the ground - he had....

 

 

 

Taoist Yoga pdf page 16

Quote

When original or prenatal spirit manifests thus,
it should

be driven into the Iower tan t’ien centre under the navel to

fix it there.

 

 

When I recently talked to the other qigong master he said he had done 1 1/2 hours nonstop of horse stand with thighs parallel to the ground....

 

I know, just in my experience with doing horse stance like this, as the yin chi is built up in the lower tan tien through celibacy - the thing is that the horse stance is not just physical celibacy but it also empties out the mind - by sublimating the yin chi up to the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality.

 

The qigong master told me that the main reason people can't achieve the real Emptiness is because of lack of will power, lack of kidney energy to go into the Emptiness.

 

So in actuality the more you do the horse stance, the more celibacy is achieved, then the longer you can keep doing the horse stance - and this requires controlling your dreams obviously.

 

For me I just wake up and go into horse stance with thighs parallel to the ground. Slowly you can hold it longer - and build up the yin chi energy that way as the foundation of the training.

 

The original qigong master said he does that eye rolling exercise every day! That is what merges the Solar and Lunar qi energies and that is what "drives" the spirit to the lower tan t'ien. But he first pointed this out in his healing book as an exercise to heal the eyes - he didn't reveal the alchemical reason behind why he does that eye rolling exercise everyday. haha. He just said it keeps his eyes healthy. But then the Solar and Lunar meditations are the focus of Level 3 of SFQ for Enlightenment - just as it is also the focus of chapters six and seven of Taoist Yoga - the two eyes as the Solar and Lunar energy - to finally seal up the lower tan t'ien to enable the qi to get into the inner cell of the lower tan t'ien for deep serenity of Emptiness practice.

 

So that one sentence that you emphasized actually has a lot to it - and again I would have to study chapter six and seven more to understand it better but then anyone else can also do the same.

 

I just don't have the time right now.

Edited by Innersoundqigong
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Your talking about things that can't be proven online. What is in texts is what we can discuss, keep talking about wanting proofs of immortals...no such sense to keep mentioning this. No such things will ever take place. You find immortals and learn from them, Immortals have no interest in finding you, and proving anything to you :excl:

 

Wrong!

Counterevidence about a lineage which creates Spirit Immortals by simply storing up Houtian chi, a method which is on Zhongliquan's list of those methods which allegedly not work

which disproves Zhongliquan's alleged allpervading knowledge and his absurd list, further this evidence disproves the claim that all systems which create Spirit Immortals work with the same system or method, that only prenatal chi and not postnatal (houtian) chi can create Spirit Immortals, that Spirit Immortals have to go through the level of Earth Immortal (everlasting youth) and almost all other claims made by opendao and by LaoZiDao in this thread:

 

 

Search on google for Magus Of Java filetype:pdf and read for yourself about the method of his school:

Simply accumulating, compressing and merging yin and yang houtain chi from heaven and earth.

No ultra-complicated exercises or system with prenatal chi necessary for creating Spirit Immortals.

Not all systems for creating immortals are the same, like people in this thread claim.

Edited by ZOOM

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The point being Zoom - as people have said - to stabilize the energy requires to keep storing it up in the lower tan t'ien.

 

Not energy, original spirit (yuan shen) allegedly has to be projected from the upper tantien into the lower tantien and mixed with vitality there, which allegedly stabilizes both and hinders further leakage.

 

I know that, but The Secret Of The Golden Flower method claims according to my interpretation of it,

that yuan shen can be kept and built up in the upper tantien until it crystallizes on its own into a pearl of pure yuan shen without having to be mixed with vitality for stabilisation before.

Edited by ZOOM

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Neidan starts with a logic and ethic. With big attention to details. With responsibility for own words and actions. With a respect to the tradition. With an accurate work to systematize as many facts as possible. With a life long commitment to practice. With a reject to false views and popular mistakes. With a strong will to stop own "interpretations" and hear what teachers say. It's called "an ability to learn".

 

Tao becomes a Secret when imagination, illusions, and stereotypes control somebody's life. Tao disappears when people with evil hearts try to find it. Then like children they start to cry or scream: "bad taoists, give us a candy". Or "immortal doesn't exist because I received no candy this year". It's called "cannot learn yet, blind and deaf".

 

Everybody can see who is who. Look in the mirror. Read your own posts. The secret of YOUR success or failure is there. Not on forums or somewhere else, not in somebody's actions or words. You deserve what you are.

 

"Tao haven't gone from people, but people have gone from Tao".

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Neidan starts with a logic and ethic. With big attention to details. With responsibility for own words and actions. With a respect to the tradition. With an accurate work to systematize as many facts as possible. With a life long commitment to practice. With a reject to false views and popular mistakes. With a strong will to stop own "interpretations" and hear what teachers say. It's called "an ability to learn".

 

Tao becomes a Secret when imagination, illusions, and stereotypes control somebody's life. Tao disappears when people with evil hearts try to find it. Then like children they start to cry or scream: "bad taoists, give us a candy". Or "immortal doesn't exist because I received no candy this year". It's called "cannot learn yet, blind and deaf".

 

Everybody can see who is who. Look in the mirror. Read your own posts. The secret of YOUR success or failure is there. Not on forums or somewhere else, not in somebody's actions or words. You deserve what you are.

 

"Tao haven't gone from people, but people have gone from Tao".

 

 

As usual: sententious words, no evidence.

 

 

Let's talk about the success rate of the Wu-Liu Pai method:

So everybody who joins the school becomes an Immortal...?

I doubt that.

How many percent of the students who join the school are successful in becoming immortals,

and how many percent of the students fail?

And where is the evidence that their method works at all and which should motivate people to become students and join the school?

 

 

Why was it necessary to construct a new system out of methods of the systems of many old buddhist, taoist and probably even confucianist schools?

Did all these systems not work in the opinion of the Wu Liu Pai founders?

Or did they simply believe to "know better" than these old established schools?

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Well at least I havent received a response in the traitor language of mandarin...Cantonese only please.....

 

Taoist....

 

Gum Guang Ging...

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As usual: sententious words, no evidence.

 

Why was it necessary to construct a new system out of methods of the systems of many old buddhist, taoist and probably even confucianist schools?

Did all these systems not work in the opinion of the Wu Liu Pai founders?

Or did they simply believe to "know better" than these old established schools?

 

If you could make an effort and think 5 minutes about my "sententious words" you wouldn't ask such questions... You know nothing about the differences between various daoist and buddhist methods collected in Wu-Liu Pai, you know nothing about the foundation that connect all these methods, you know nothing about Wu Chongxu, what he has achieved BEFORE he created a new school. But you express your doubts in a disrespectful manner and think somebody will explain you anything?

 

All the answers on such questions people can easily get on their own, if they make a small effort and start to read what is written and not what they want to see. If they cannot (as in your case) then nobody will proof them anything. We're not at the market and not in the court...

Edited by opendao
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If you could make an effort and think 5 minutes about my "sententious words" you wouldn't ask such questions... You know nothing about the differences between various daoist and buddhist methods collected in Wu-Liu Pai, you know nothing about the foundation that connect all these methods, you know nothing about Wu Chongxu, what he has achieved BEFORE he created a new school. But you express your doubts in a disrespectful manner and think somebody will explain you anything?

 

All the answers on such questions people can easily get on their own, if they make a small effort and start to read what is written and not what they want to see. If they cannot (as in your case) then nobody will proof them anything. We're not at the market and not in the court...

 

What I know from a member of your school is that even your teacher has none of the powers which John Chang displays in the video above.

As Taoist Immortals develop such powers naturally, I question if your system can create Taoist Immortals.

It's as simple as that.

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So my question to Bluemind is - yes the super-secret Neidan school is super-secret but they have to resort to lying about other Neidan teachings. That is no longer super-secret.

 

So this pseudo-master accuses me in lying. For those with open eyes they can read that thread and take their own decision who is lying. http://thetaobums.com/topic/35872-neidan-refilling-yuanjingqi-building-the-foundation/page-17

 

But I will comment main 3 points pseudo-master cry on every corner.

 

Innersoundqigong:

 

The super-secret Neidan school not only resorted to quoting half sentences - the examples were a half sentence about the penis standing erect

 

let's see what I wrote:

 

 

So TY speaks a lot about the method how to prevent that. The main question is WHEN we have to revert the process of draining.
ISQ insists, that it's in the moment of "physical drain", so if man has no sex, then there is no drain.
Let's see TY: "When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate is not blocked it will leave by that gate, turn liquidand become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way". Obviously yuan jing ("generative force") and semen ("generative fluid") are not the same even for Zhao Bichen. That's why I told that it's wrong to think that the drain is physical. That's why it's too late to stop the semen flow (as LaoziDao correctly mentioned). So TY doesn't speak about physical drain.
But let's return to WHEN. "When the generative force is about to flow out". The previous sentence in the book gives an answer: "when the penis stands during sleep". So the real drain happens when "vitality manifests" (according to TY, in other schools the opinions are different). Really it doesn't matter, do you have sex or not, do you have sexual desires or not. If you don't know the specific method to apply at a specific time, then all this celibacy is in vain: yuan jing is transformed to postheaven jing and will flow away sooner or later.

 

Obviously I argue with our pseudo-master's thesis that "drain is physical", and that's what he had to provide arguments against (if he has any). But he decided to twist instead:

"As soon as the penis stands breath in fresh air to fan the stove in the lower abdomen in order to drive the generative force into the channel of control (tu mo in the spine) and put it into microcosmic orbit." p. 13

 

Nothing about vitality lost when the penis stands up.

 

So man decided to change the lane, and he argues with something I haven't even touched. I spoke about what happening in a person who doesn't practice, and such person obviously looses the energy (or it has no sense to practice anything). But the quote above speaks about what to practice to prevent the "drain", and it has to be done when "penis is erect". If we don't do it, the energy is obviously lost. So we see that pseudo-master can't read and has problems with logic. Also we see that even phrase is full, it doesn't help, the sense is still the same (that's why I quoted only a part - I don't like long posts).

 

Another example:

 

Innersoundqigong:

 

The lie about the generative force was again that energy had been lost when in fact the rest of the sentence says the generative force changes to fluid which is lost.

 

Again lack of any logic. If the energy changes to the fluid (so energy becomes fluid), then when fluid is lost then the energy is lost as well. You can put the phrase in full, in Chinese and you will get the same meaning.

 

About farting, dear readers, you can discuss it with our pseudo-master. He thinks that spirit comes out of the anus. I don't want even touch this stinky crap. He loves the book, maybe it satisfies his taste ;-(

 

So even with the full phrases, even if you bring them in Chinese, pseudo-master can close his mouth that I'm lying.

 

My point was that the drain is not physical, so all his long posts about celibacy have no big value, because anyway the energy is lost (in Neidan it's like 2+2 in math - obvious even for newbies). Who has eyes can see it. Others can try to celibate, believe to Innersoundqigong with all his "logic" (U of MN? I had a better impression about US's high education), and see it in 20-30 years.

 

That's all pseudo-masters can give you - NOTHING. Think using your own head, read with your own eyes the texts of respected schools and teachers with a long and proven history of high level results.

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What I know from a member of your school is that even your teacher has none of the powers which John Chang displays in the video above.

As Taoist Immortals develop such powers naturally, I question if your system can create Taoist Immortals.

It's as simple as that.

 

1) what John Chang displays has no relation to Neidan. It's Neigong. I doubt though you've seen John Chang, so again it's kind of shallow (your knowledge).

 

2) your knowledge about my teacher is not complete, but I doubt he has any interest to prove you anything...

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1) what John Chang displays has no relation to Neidan. It's Neigong. I doubt though you've seen John Chang, so again it's kind of shallow (your knowledge).

 

2) your knowledge about my teacher is not complete, but I doubt he has any interest to prove you anything...

 

I doesn't matter how you name it:

A Taoist Immortal will develop powers like John Chang naturally and will be able to display those to his students,

no matter if he became a Taoist Immortal through Nei Kung or through Neidan.

 

That's my personal position and btw the position of most members of the Neigong Forum.

For that reason, you generated zero interest in the Neigong Forum for your school and for your system.

 

If you or others disagree with that and prefer to believe in lineage or whatever instead of believing in power,

fine, that's your choice.

 

Dzogchen masters are able to imprint their hands and feet into solid rock, I have seen enough photos taken by their students.

Therefore I believe that Dzogchen is powerful enough to create Buddha's with Rainbow Body achievement.

If someone has the power to dissolve granite into its elements, then he can do the same with his body.

 

Every system that generates enough good evidence for such a kind of power will get me as a believer and as a supporter.

 

Therefore, your bullshit of labeling me as a person "with an evil heart" because I don't believe in your system, is more than ridicolous, it's in fact childish.

Edited by ZOOM

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Neidan starts with a logic and ethic. With big attention to details. With responsibility for own words and actions. With a respect to the tradition. With an accurate work to systematize as many facts as possible. With a life long commitment to practice. With a reject to false views and popular mistakes. With a strong will to stop own "interpretations" and hear what teachers say. It's called "an ability to learn".

 

Inside and outside there are many moving parts, yet ultimately all is whole. The tao is the only teacher we need, but the tao may be found anywhere. Many have trouble recognizing when they are only seeing the tao in some places but not all places, and when they make conclusions based on this limited perspective they also reject the tao they don't see. Nothing can be rejected.

 

In this sense, it is not complicated. Everything is tao, and it is everywhere, in all the parts. Understanding how it all works is complicated, but becoming one with it is as simple as maintaining the sincerity to allow it to be so, from all that is within. Empty yourself of everything, and be limited by nothing.

 

Tao becomes a Secret when imagination, illusions, and stereotypes control somebody's life. Tao disappears when people with evil hearts try to find it. Then like children they start to cry or scream: "bad taoists, give us a candy". Or "immortal doesn't exist because I received no candy this year". It's called "cannot learn yet, blind and deaf".

 

When people disconnect from their hearts they are not "evil," they are simply lost. Especially in this country, men are raised to disassociate from their emotions, so it is no wonder.

 

Everybody can see who is who. Look in the mirror. Read your own posts. The secret of YOUR success or failure is there. Not on forums or somewhere else, not in somebody's actions or words. You deserve what you are.

 

You create what you are, and must account for what you create.

 

"Tao haven't gone from people, but people have gone from Tao".

 

Many people do not account for what they create, but look for a means of escape somehow. Perhaps some are afraid of their own darkness, and so run towards the light. But their darkness is a part of them, and they will need to answer to it in order to accept their own wholeness and purify it into the golden light.

 

The method is just sincerity placed upon inner wholeness. Those who think their ego is their whole are mistaken. When one humbles their ego and looks beyond what it thinks it knows, perhaps one may find their way begin to mysteriously unfold, no longer controlled by consciousness. When one maintains their sincerity upon increasing this operation, it builds and one must continuously increase their inner sincerity to avoid the power from being expressed. Refinement is needed to harmonize what becomes pressurized until it becomes fine and pure, no longer so overwhelming to contain. Refinement happens in many ways - virtuous, equanimous conduct among others is a fine place to operate refining. Simply maintain this operation and listen to the tao - it will take one where they need to go, and help one find the answers they need, without the ego getting in the way.

 

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,

Yet no one under Heaven is able to know them or practice them

My words touch the fundamental,

The things concerned include all under Heaven.

Because ignorance exists,

There is no knowledge of me, my true self.

Those that know me are so very few,

Thus accomplishing my value.

Therefore, Sages wear coarse clothing and carry a priceless jewel in their bosom.

 

Dao De Jing ch70, Hu Xuezhi

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Practitioners of the golden lotus are suppose to have results...

 

They are suppose to be able to manifest the golden elixir.

 

Zhen qi is elixir yes but it is not the golden elixir.

 

The Golden elixir is literally the energetic expression of gold made inside the human body.

 

It actually correlates to actually gold in the outside world.

 

This is why alchemist referred to it as gold and why some Hinduism work by trying to asorbe gold energy directly...

 

The golden elixir has vast connections to nature.

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