Quick Zhuangzi question

[Marblehead]

After a nights sleep maybe I am understanding you correctly that you might include Lenin and Mao on the list of modern reformers. Wow interesting!

 

 

Well, they did make reforms. Subjectively valuing those reforms is another matter.

[Rara]

 

I thought you were procrastinating. You've been given an awful lot to consider but haven't yet given thorough indication one way or another on any of it.Sarcasm about a temporarily derailment in a thread you aren't engaged in mentally seems unnecessary.You asked the short question got an answer, got more than that! I don't see what your beef should be .

Each place I put a question mark , was an invitation. Each suggested reading an opportunity for a fresh direction.

Woah. Ok, firstly, when I said I procrastinate, ai meant this in a bad way.

 

I also was not being sarcastic...I took some basic advice and it was of great benefit, and I am thankful. There is no beef whatsoever! Nor was there any derailment of any kind....if anything, progress has been made as I have broken down that ego barrier that you mentioned.

 

Finally yes, plenty of reading and this is in progress. I just haven't reached an ultimate decision, hence the lack of response in that department.

 

Its your thread.

 

But to address that post here anyway,

 

Yeah there is wanting , but , it being your subjective state

your wanting has a component of fungibility.

This is one reason to be saying that something is illusion.

 

One might say something like , where is your hunger located?

Is your hunger visible ?

are you hungry in sleep?

How legit is your hunger , or does it have other components

such as other desires and fears mixed up with it?

 

Is it a 'good' or 'bad' thing to have needs and wants.

They bring motivation do they not? and is not motivation

a likeable thing? , or does it all boil down to unsatisfied desires?

rather than a healthy motivation of living?

Is satisfying these things the purpose of a life ?

does it define- if a life is lived well ?

And to add...this just sounds exactly like our "filling the belly" convo...I never did intend to digress so much but hey, we're here now.

 

But yes, the need to fulfil a satisfaction depends on what forms that particular desire. The main thing for me is knowing the difference between what is actually important and worth fulfilling, and what is merely just doing unnecessarily or over-indulging.

[Marblehead]

... I have broken down that ego barrier ...

 

You haven't seen ego until you have seen mine.

[Rara]

I challenge you to a duel. Haha, no, you know what, I always said that it was gone...and now I realised I have ego about "losing the ego".

[Marblehead]

I challenge you to a duel. Haha, no, you know what, I always said that it was gone...and now I realised I have ego about "losing the ego".

Hehehe. Actually, I have never tried to rid myself of my ego. I just could never justify the effort. It is my opinion that if we do rid ourself of ego we will at that very moment rid ourself of self-realization. And if we don't realize 'self', what is the purpose in living?

[Rara]

Here we go And now we move on to Stosh's other point on Eudaimonia (think I spelled this right)

 

The point of living...and what is happiness. Generally the main conflict I find on this forum, plus Stosh and I have already been talking about this in DMs. Time and time again, now, I.will keep referring to stuff "being the same as" (which I.already did today on this thread) as I'm beginning to find that a lot of my questions are leading to the same place.

 

But this is just it. We'll all be divided on this opinion because I am me, and you are you etc...even if we try and find as many similarities as we can in each other, if examined under a microscope, we will find that we're still quite different. How can we share the same perceptions at all? It is quite impossible.

 

So anyway, I've been exploring happiness for a while and have gone down many routes. Some have involved flogging myself, others have involved accepting minimalism and denying atachment to materialism.

 

But then again, I find myself going back to my Xbox. Or my friend's LCD TV. It provides a laugh, so how is this bad? For me, I keep finding myself exploring, only to find myself back where I started haha.

 

As for the ego, I can see why you think this. Sure, I become more modest with age and wisdom, but if I go too far in that direction, I won't do anything in life. Ego and competition boosts achievement...which makes me feel good. Nothing wrong with a reward for hard work...and if that ego led to victory, so be it!

[Marblehead]

Gee. You left me with nothing to say.

[Rara]

Woah! Well, I better just get on with this book then, I guess!

[Stosh]

Well, they did make reforms. Subjectively valuing those reforms is another matter.

Yeah , that was what I found interesting too,, that the reforms were away from the religio-faith based angle and towards a introspective personal experience based one. Though I dont think the socialist-communist reform model actually works as things are , in the real world ,, I can still understand the lofty Utopian desire for a more united compassionate way.. It drew many adherents , and still does. ( its just too subject to corruption and is more intrusively controlling )

 

Our capitalism isnt pure though either , its a looser socialism ,and does treat aquisitiveness as a driving motivating virtue, but works out to be a Give-to-get system which rewards merit overall.

 

My subjective valuation was coloring my asssessment, but is-was a paradigm shift which can fit with the concept of

"rebirth of reason based society"

 

 

 

 

Here we go And now we move on to Stosh's other point on Eudaimonia (think I spelled this right)

 

The point of living...and what is happiness. Generally the main conflict I find on this forum, plus Stosh and I have already been talking about this in DMs. Time and time again, now, I.will keep referring to stuff "being the same as" (which I.already did today on this thread) as I'm beginning to find that a lot of my questions are leading to the same place.

 

But this is just it. We'll all be divided on this opinion because I am me, and you are you etc...even if we try and find as many similarities as we can in each other, if examined under a microscope, we will find that we're still quite different. How can we share the same perceptions at all? It is quite impossible.

 

So anyway, I've been exploring happiness for a while and have gone down many routes. Some have involved flogging myself, others have involved accepting minimalism and denying atachment to materialism.

 

But then again, I find myself going back to my Xbox. Or my friend's LCD TV. It provides a laugh, so how is this bad? For me, I keep finding myself exploring, only to find myself back where I started haha.

 

As for the ego, I can see why you think this. Sure, I become more modest with age and wisdom, but if I go too far in that direction, I won't do anything in life. Ego and competition boosts achievement...which makes me feel good. Nothing wrong with a reward for hard work...and if that ego led to victory, so be it!

 

 

Quite right , much of the stuff relates directly to living well , and what that exactly means for you.

Each person , yes , is a unique individual, heck, just two blood factors I have, puts me in a select grouping of six individuals in the united states! and that has nothing to do even with my experiences or anything else about me.

But at the same time , if one believes there is a basic 'humanity' a common thread which loosely we share in common, then you are not completely out of touch with anyone else.

Otherwise we all really would require an artificial morality imposed upon us if we were to live harmoniously.

 

You kind of have to agree with this idea in order to have faith in Lao when it comes to the innate 'goodness' you would have ideally to revert. Folks like Marblehead Shanlung Zerostao etc are operating more from an intuitive stance which relies on it.

The Stoic idea of virtue is closely tied to it. Others like me, dont have as much faith in my intuition , so I need to formulate reasons to do A B or C.

But neither is really pure .

See if the book does or does not point you in directions regarding life, and notice that it doesnt demand you concur , notice it explains for you but then when that is said and done , it is up to you what decisions you make and whether you are getting it right.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Stosh

[Rara]

Woooooo! My paper copy came. Martin Palmer version (affordable) but reading the intro, it looks like he has looked into so much in order to produce this...including Burton Watson

 

I know this will be a much easier read than my phone app that is some mad Chinese translation job. I will be starting over.