Does Thinking Stop?

[fatherpaul]

keeping it simple

 

there is only thought

not "your" thought "my" thought

thought is not good or bad

right or wrong

 

"you" cannot stop thought

because "you" are thought.

[buddabubba]

reference the concept of three nen (more Zen terminology) actions

 

 

it is not a matter of effort,

its a matter of seeing things the way they are

 

You do not think that seeing things the way they are takes effort?

 

"you" cannot stop thought

because "you" are thought.

 

Yes, that's right. The eye cannot see itself, the hand cannot take hold of itself, the sword cannot cut itself.

 

Furthermore, the 'you' that is thought is an illusion. The self centered ego that thinks it's an 'I' cannot stop itself, cannot stop what it is by being what it is. Thought cannot stop itself by thinking. That's my whole point.

 

But it can be stopped, nevertheless...

 

For me, to stop the inner dialogue I have to put my full attention on the feeling and make subtle distinctions there without 'thinking' about them, or elaborating.

 

If you are making distinctions, then you are thinking. Certainly in a different modality than verbal, but thinking nevertheless. It doesn't matter what mode (verbal/auditory, kinesthetic/feeling, visual, whatever) you are thinking in, you are still thinking. Once again, I am not suggesting that the practice you are describing does not have merit or value, I know that it does. It is simply that it will not lead you to absolute samadhi.

 

For the mind and body to "fall off" as it were, ALL thought, ALL modes, must go.

 

Edited June 28, 2007 by buddabubba

[Cameron]

Buddabubba,

 

Your on the right track. This is all mostly the confusion of using language and talking to others over the internet.

 

It's all mostly what language you like to use. For example, I prefer to say the ego is seen through or recognized for what it is-illusion-then to say it(or thoughts about it) are stopped.

 

But that's all minor stuff. At heart I think what your saying is the same thing.

[buddabubba]

Cameron,

 

Thank you.

 

I prefer to say the ego is seen through or recognized for what it is-illusion-then to say it(or thoughts about it) are stopped.

 

All epistomological tangles aside, I really see this as two different things. I feel that the stopping of thought is not the same as the realization that the ego/I is an illusion, but it is a practice that cultivates that awareness upon returning from samadhi.

 

We sit, we do Nothing.

 

We return to the World.

 

The Veil parts...

 

 

This is all mostly the confusion of using language and talking to others over the internet.

 

It's all mostly what language you like to use.

 

There is a lot of truth to that...

Edited June 28, 2007 by buddabubba

[Cameron]

OK

[fatherpaul]

reference the concept of three nen (more Zen terminology) actions

You do not think that seeing things the way they are takes effort?( NO, who is making the effort?)

Yes, that's right. The eye cannot see itself, the hand cannot take hold of itself, the sword cannot cut itself.

 

Furthermore, the 'you' that is thought is an illusion. The self centered ego that thinks it's an 'I' cannot stop itself, cannot stop what it is by being what it is. Thought cannot stop itself by thinking. That's my whole point.

 

But it can be stopped, nevertheless...

If you are making distinctions, then you are thinking. Certainly in a different modality than verbal, but thinking nevertheless. It doesn't matter what mode (verbal/auditory, kinesthetic/feeling, visual, whatever) you are thinking in, you are still thinking. Once again, I am not suggesting that the practice you are describing does not have merit or value, I know that it does. It is simply that it will not lead you to absolute samadhi.

(as for samadhi, hahahahahahah)

For the mind and body to "fall off" as it were, ALL thought, ALL modes, must go.

 

[freeform]

If you are making distinctions, then you are thinking. Certainly in a different modality than verbal, but thinking nevertheless. It doesn't matter what mode (verbal/auditory, kinesthetic/feeling, visual, whatever) you are thinking in, you are still thinking. Once again, I am not suggesting that the practice you are describing does not have merit or value, I know that it does. It is simply that it will not lead you to absolute samadhi.

 

For the mind and body to "fall off" as it were, ALL thought, ALL modes, must go.

 

 

Well I guess it depends on how you define thinking - I define it as having mental processes, where the energy is in the mind (upper dan tien).

 

Can you feel the difference between hot and cold? That's a distinction.

 

My aim is not to "fall off" - but to have a quiet mind - I certainly dont want to lose my body, I'm barely just beginning to find it.

 

Generally speaking Taoist arts concentrate on having full awareness of the body.

[buddabubba]

Freeform,

 

I would love to delve into this more deeply with you.

 

Have you by any chance read the link I provided above? What's your take on it? It will perhaps help you to see where I am coming from...

 

Here it is again -

 

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=14414

[soaring crane]

an unfettered reply to the original post....

 

The place to begin is with your reaction to the chatter. It's really the only place where you can effectively "act" without disturbing your meditation.

 

Don't react.

 

Don't get annoyed with yourself. Your mind can think, chatter and wander all it wants, just don't put yourself under pressure and think of yourself as some kind of loser because of it. This is what most people do but the wandering mind WANTS that kind of reaction, it WANTS to distract you. Just ignore it and eventually, it'll stop. Really. With no effort at all.

 

But ignoring it means simply not reacting, it doesn't mean controlling or suppressing, denying or hiding. It doesn't mean accepting, either. No judgement, positive or negative. No matter what the thoughts are.

 

It's like sitting near the railroad tracks. Train comes, it's loud and distracting, just let it roll in and roll out again at it's own pace. Can't stop a train. It might be a long freight train. I once ran out of gas waiting at a train crossing. What did I learn from that? Turn off the motor and just watch and wait.

 

Or, say you start thinking "Butterfly" during your meditation. Ok, Butterfly... NO! can't think about butterflies! Gotta meditate... ommmmm...... Wow, Butterfly. Butterfly... Blue Butterfly... With white spots... where did I see one like that once? Damn. Meditate. Forget butterfly... Butterfly.... was on vacation in Croatia... 2003, was so freaking hot... and my wife was bitchy.... damn, meditate... Butterfly... Croatia was pretty good though... such beautiful houses in Zadar....But Isabella was a pain in the ass, we argued every day about where to go and she hated the beach because there was no sand, too many rocks and... damn... where was I? Oh yeah... Meditate... ommmm.... I can't meditate.

 

Where did it go wrong? With the first "NO!". Just let the butterflies flutter by.

[buddabubba]

This is a good example of the 'just be' fallacy, put better than paul put it, but still...

 

(Of course, all perspectives are true from a certain point of view, so in several senses you are not wrong, but...)

 

OK, how do you just be? HOW do you...

 

Do you not see the problem here?

 

No?

 

hmmmm.

[buddabubba]

Sorry for the double dip, but...

 

"Before I began upon the Way, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers.

Once I had begun upon the Way, mountains were no longer mountains and rivers were no longer rivers.

Now that I understand the Way, mountains are just mountains, rivers are just rivers."

 

So the question is, why not just stop while you are ahead?

Why bother walking any Path?

If the beginner is already there? Things being just what they are and all?

Are they?

Can you just be? Effortlessly?

No effort? What is effort?

Are we both talking about the same thing here?

 

hmmmm.

[fatherpaul]

"This is a good example of the 'just be' fallacy, put better than paul put it, but still..."

 

sir you know not from where you speak "just be" implies a being

are you such?

 

peace

paul

[Cameron]

Sorry for the double dip, but...

 

"Before I began upon the Way, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers.

Once I had begun upon the Way, mountains were no longer mountains and rivers were no longer rivers.

Now that I understand the Way, mountains are just mountains, rivers are just rivers."

 

So the question is, why not just stop while you are ahead?

Why bother walking any Path?

If the beginner is already there? Things being just what they are and all?

Are they?

Can you just be? Effortlessly?

No effort? What is effort?

Are we both talking about the same thing here?

 

hmmmm.

 

 

The first time I went to see Adyashanti I kept getting this thought come up in my mind over and over "already too much".

 

I don't know if this was just mental chatter or some deep communication from spirit. But the way I take it after sitting with a couple awakened people in the VERY FIRST INSTANT THE EGO TRIES TO DO SOMETHING this is "already too much".

 

Trying to just be-ALREADY TOO MUCH EFFORT.

 

Trying to be quiet-ALREADY TOO MUCH EFFORT.

 

Trying to be still-ALREADY TOO MUCH EFFORT.

 

What I try to do when I sit now is nothing-rest in primordial presence. Rest in "I AMmness". Thoughts come and go like storms in the sky.Storms may come and make alot of noise but eventually they pass and the sky is quiet again.

 

When it rains you don't think OMG! Rain! It's so wet! How long is this rain going to go on for! Why is it raining! What is rain! Rain,rain,rain,rain..

 

No..you notice it's raining..and that's about it..the rain stops when it stops.

 

Same with mind, you notice there are thoughts(rain)and that's about it. It does whatever it does and stops whenever it stops. There is no controller because there is no self.

 

But we all have a tendency for very strong ego clinging and identification which can take along time to see through. I have been at it for over 10 years now and even still get caught in the pull of ego and have "ego storms" come up.

[fatherpaul]

The first time I went to see Adyashanti I kep getting this thought come up in my mind over and over "already too much".

 

I don't know if this was just mental chatter or some deep communicaiton from spirit. But the way I take it after sitting with a couple awakened people if the VERY FIRST INSTANT THE EGO TRIES TO DO SOMETHING this is "already too much".

 

Trying to just be-ALREADY TOO MUCH EFFORT.

 

Trying to be quiet-ALREADY TOO MUCH EFFORT.

 

Trying to be still-ALREADY TOO MUCH EFFORT.

 

What I try to do when I sit now is nothing-rest primordial presence. Rest in "I AMmness". Thoughts come and go like storms in the sky .Sotarms may come and make alot of noice but eventually they pass and the sky is quiet again.

 

When it rains you don't think OMG! Rain! It's so wet! How long is this rain going to go on for! Why is it raining! What is rain! Rain,rain,rain,rain..

 

No..you notice it's raining..and that's about it..the rain stops when it stops.

 

Same with mind, you nortice there is thoughts(rain)and that's about it .It does whatever it does and stops whenever it stops. There is no controller because there is no self.

 

But we all have a tendency for very storng ego clinging and itentification which can take along time to see through .I have been at it for over 10 years now and even still get caught in the pull of ego and have "ego storms" come up.

 

to not "be" cannot be done

to "be" cannot be done

peace

cameron

[Cameron]

to not "be" cannot be done

to "be" cannot be done

peace

cameron

 

 

right..exactly...and yet we still love to think about not thinking and talk about just being

[fatherpaul]

right..exactly...and yet we still love to think about not thinking and talk about just being

 

 

yes it is a way

to run away

[Cameron]

yes it is a way

to run away

 

 

Maybe..maybe not..it might have some benefit. I can't say for sure.

[fatherpaul]

Maybe..maybe not..it might have some benefit. I can't say for sure.

 

"the best place to hide something, is right under your nose"

 

peace to you

cameron

you are a good person

[Cameron]

How is your health? Feeling good/ok?

[fatherpaul]

How is your health? Feeling good/ok?

kind of you to ask

it is still failing

and yet.....this body will eek out

every instance of life while it lives

without any effort,

you will be alerted when it ceases.

 

 

peace

paul

[Cameron]

OK

[rain]

thinking, (thought) carries on in other beings

mind dies to its influence if you will.

it is not a matter of effort,

its a matter of seeing things the way they are.

 

peace,

paul

 

hello fatherpaul

 

i just wonder. what do you define "thinking" to be?

i "think"is so hard to express in words. hard to be precise. accurate.

when i was deep in meditation. mind stopped "attaching" to concepts. it went blank, silent. i sat for 45 minutes for almost a year before this happened. with blank i mean i did finnally succed to not "go with"/follow or co-create "scenes and scenarios"in my mind. it was like something eventually gave in.

mind shut up,

but conscoiusness still witnessed silence.

tell me your opinion, was i thinking/producing this silence? (an horrifying, though amusing thought...)

[fatherpaul]

hello fatherpaul

 

i just wonder. what do you define "thinking" to be?

i "think"is so hard to express in words. hard to be precise. accurate.

when i was deep in meditation. mind stopped "attaching" to concepts. it went blank, silent. i sat for 45 minutes for almost a year before this happened. with blank i mean i did finnally succed to not "go with"/follow or co-create "scenes and scenarios"in my mind. it was like something eventually gave in.

mind shut up,

but conscoiusness still witnessed silence.

tell me your opinion, was i thinking/producing this silence? (an horrifying, though amusing thought...)

 

 

(there is a "false" silence

a trick of the mind

very subtle)

 

 

thinking is based on memory

it is always old, a material process

that carries on in a field

where it has no value

thats all, do not to worry about stopping it

or carrying on with it.

it knows very well what it is.

 

peace to you rain,

 

paul

[林愛偉]

hello fatherpaul

 

i just wonder. what do you define "thinking" to be?

i "think"is so hard to express in words. hard to be precise. accurate.

when i was deep in meditation. mind stopped "attaching" to concepts. it went blank, silent. i sat for 45 minutes for almost a year before this happened. with blank i mean i did finnally succed to not "go with"/follow or co-create "scenes and scenarios"in my mind. it was like something eventually gave in.

mind shut up,

but conscoiusness still witnessed silence.

tell me your opinion, was i thinking/producing this silence? (an horrifying, though amusing thought...)

 

 

If there was a witnessing of silence, there was still a witnesser, and thus something to discriminate which creates the idea of the witnesser and the silence being witnessed.

It was still a thought basically. This is a deep state though, not easy to reach for a great many, but easy for those who can.

 

Thoughts do stop, but they are not extinguished nor produced. Once there is a recogniztion of stillness, there is movement; recognition of the state of no thought, but this recognition creates the thought that there was no thought, and thus that creates a being recognizing thought, which inturn creates the thought of attainng the state again, which deepens the idea of a being and an object.

Someone once asked me how it all began. I believe it was Cameron (maybe)...the process is in the above statement...in a raw form so to say.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

[rain]

thak you both for responding.

i dont have a meditation-teacer. as yet.

 

"If there was a witnessing of silence, there was still a witnesser, and thus something to discriminate which creates the idea of the witnesser and the silence being witnessed."

 

yes so true

 

but may be discrimination came when looking back at the incident?

still... consiousness in this state...hmm..this is interesting, felt like my essence. like "yes sure i am - HA HA".

so there definitely was sense of "I"

far out actually. undisturbed by reaction to any thing.

like i already know everything i need to know. peace. like it would all come to me when i choose to direct consentrated consoiusness towards it. no need to worry.

 

maybe i was witnessing my belief in my "self", witnessing the raw material, most constant notion of self?

i wonder if "self-notion" ever will become star-dust..

 

 

peace and love and wonder

 

 

rain