Gospel of Thomas

[goatguy-too]

 

(hint: thats not hebrew)

Yeah, I know that GOT is in Greek. Augustine and Constantine both worked to rid the church of everything Hebrew. Augustine claimed that the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the original Hebrew Old Testament) was more reliable than the original. It is likely that the author of Thomas was attempting to preserve the method of interpretation of the Jewish Christians. The author propbably spoke Greek natively and took notes (in Greek) on how to read the OT.

 

Over in the other GOT thread I explain the context in which I read the GOT. The method I use to read the New Testament (which is also in Greek) is to understand it the way a Hebrew would have with the Old Testament in mind and in context.. Though many could speak Greek, they would still think in Hebrew.

 

We may wish to point out that GOT isn't English either. Yet that does not deter us from attempting to bridge the language gaps and understand what it means. The early Greek church struggled to understand the Hebrew context of the Old Testament, and there are likely more commentaries or notes written in Greek about the Hebrew text.

[Apech]

Its Koine Greek presumably. The lingua franca of the ancient middle east/Roman Empire.

[Apech]

17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what

no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never

occurred to the human mind."

[chegg]

(side note for Apech...others please ignore)

 

Hey Apech, I just glanced at your blog, noticed you we studying ancient egyptian religion (excellent !). Hope this helps....

 

According to ancient Egyptian religion, there are nine levels of energy, some crass, some subtle that seem to be in each human body. Control of some of them are required for attaining eternal life.They are powers that built our bodies, some physical, some energy, some spirit, these are the:

Physical body;
Ren, the energy of a pure life;
Khat, the energy of life in the animal body;
Ka, the subtle energy of life to project itself from the animal or human body;
Ab, subtle energy of the heart;
Ba, the energy of the heart turned to spirit;
Sekem, the repository of energy found in physical, mental, psychic;
Sahu, the energy of the sekem intertwined with the more radiant energy of the spiritual;
Khu, the transcendent, radiant energy of the spirit with everlasting life.

 

 

source: http://tinyurl.com/knkkhhf

Edited November 2, 2013 by chegg

[goatguy-too]

What is the mystery of the face of a clock? The nature of a mystery is that the mystery must be visible, but not seen, or audible yet not heard.

 

In the metaphor of the body:

head - authority

ears - "sheep hear his voice" being drawn without understanding

eyes - understanding

hands = work

shoulder - purpose of the work

foot/walk - life

thigh - will

 

Men who were deaf, blind and lame were made to hear, see and walk.

 

In the context of the riddle, the mystery, though right in front of them, was not seen, nor was anyone curious about it because they did not even recognize it as a mystery.

 

Usually the eyes, ears and feet are clustered because we hear the Father, see the Son and the Holy Ghost gives life. Because eyes and ears are clustered with hands, the riddle is speaking about men in the flesh. There is a Christian dualism as taught by Paul and Jesus. As an individual I am both a sheep and a goat. the sheep represents the spiritual side, and the goat represents the flesh, or instinctive side. The kingdom of God was never seen, nor heard, and no hand was used to make it. Carnal man never considered the spiritual things.

 

Jesus opened their eyes to the spiritual realities. It is said that the Ninevites did not know their right hand from their left. Think about goats on the left and sheep on the right hand of Christ.... the Ninevites did not discern flesh from spirit. Paul taught that we had an old man and a new man.

 

The meaning is simply he is revealing the mystery which has been hidden in plain site... giving them the keys to the kingdom.

 

Having said that... in Hebrew hieroglyphics, the blank page represents God, since we are not permitted to make a graven image. The yod י represents something like the Big Bang. It is like the first thought that God had to create. Every other letter is drawn by starting with a yod. Every word is made up of letters and everything which was created was created by God speaking words. Symbolically we interpret that everything that was created came from the mind of God.

 

Each letter represents a massive metaphor of about 1/28 of everything in existence. As two letters join, they form a sub-root which is a metaphor for the intersection and combination of the two letters. Add another letter and you get a Hebrew root word which is the intersection and combination of all three letters. Longer words are built the same way.

 

Though there are 22 proper letters, there are 28 hieroglyphic letters. There are 5 final forms that are the same sound as the five associated proper letters, but their shape changes when found at the end of a word. And there is one letter that is never used in creating words, so it is never pronounced.

 

So everything that can be seen, heard, or thought of is contained in the 28 hieroglyphics. By the way, there are four voices of God (prophet, priest, king and judge) and the number 7 represents completeness. 4x7 = 28. The complete revelation of God is contained in the 28 glyphs.

 

But the meaning of all 2-letter subroots are not known. This means that there is a lot of stuff that God has said, made and thought of that we aren't aware of yet. And should we get cocky and think we can discover them, there is one letter which is never used to make words, which indicates that totally half of what God knows is beyond our reach to even comprehend.

 

The 28th symbol is a four-legged shin. It looks like a W ith four legs. The prophets could get a glimpse of its metaphor, but were forbidden to speak of it. The misunderstanding of it is the antithesis of all other revelation which when appropriated by the carnal mind creates all evil. The meaning of the symbol itself is not evil but presents too great of a temptation for the carnal mind to resist. Misunderstanding it is the origin of original sin, the Pandora Box myth, etc. But the symbol itself is the origin of the folklore of the unspeakable name of God. The word Yahweh has been used as a substitute for the unspeakable name, But there is no admonition against saying it. The 28th symbol is unspeakable because it is not used to make any words.

 

Jewish tradition says that when Messiah returns he will reveal the meaning of all the unknown sub-roots. The Christian equivalent is that Jesus did reveal the mystery. And through his revelation the metaphor for each letter is known, including that of the 28th letter. And new words can be formed which express ideas which have never been thought or spoken by men.

 

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[Jeff]

17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what

no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never

occurred to the human mind."

 

 

 

Jesus is talking about oneness with God. It is beyond arisings in/of the mind (or universal mind). What one senses and thinks is not it.

 

 

I find it interesting to compare this passage to the TTC description of the Tao.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Jeff

[Jeff]

17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what
no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never
occurred to the human mind."

 

Hi Jeff. Which passage exactly? Would you quote it here? Thanks.

 

First one must understand that "what has never occurred to the human mind", is found in the "heart". Once that is realized, you find it in many places. Below is just an example...

 

 

 

CHAPTER 4 (SFH version)

 

The Dao is forever like an unfathomable empty space.

If used, it can never be used up.

It is the source of the Ten Thousand Things.

Look with your heart, see its form in the glare,

be at one with the dust of the Earth, simplify your nature.

For it is ever present, hidden in the depths of the myriad things.

I don't know from whence it came, but it is great.

[9th]

BLATZ

(17) Jesus said: I will give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has not entered into the heart of man.

LAYTON

(17) Jesus said, "I shall give you (plur.) what eyes have not seen, what ears have not heard, what hands have not touched, what has not come upon the human heart."

DORESSE

18 [17]. Jesus says: "I will give you what eye has never seen, and what ear has never heard, and what hand has never touched, and what has never entered into the heart of man."

 

[Jeff]

Hi 9th,

 

Very nice, a few more translations...

 

Lambdin (1988)

(17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind."

 

Patterson-Robinson (1998)

 

(17) Jesus says: "I will give you what no eye has seen, and what no ear has heard, and what no hand has touched, and what has not occurred to the human mind."

 

 

 

Also, below is the Coptic/English interlinear translation has been compiled by Michael Grondin...

[9th]

 

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

- Corinthians, Ch. 2:9

[Jeff]

Hi 9th,

 

In my original statement, I had put the word "heart" in quotes to imply something much deeper than the human heart (or heart of man). In many traditions it is called the "inner heart". It also defines the difference between "love" and "universal love".

 

John 7:37-38

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

 

Living water...

[Apech]

I like the alternate translations and transliterations ... can you give links as resource for others please.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Apech

[9th]

i was just trying to show the referencing link to the passage in king james version... not really debate the translation itself

 

i think "mind" and "heart" are conflated in a number of old languages, actually

[Apech]

Moving on ... or moving back (?)

 

18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."

Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that

you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the

end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning;

he will know the end and will not experience death."

[Jeff]

18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."

Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that

you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the

end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning;

he will know the end and will not experience death."

 

To me, this is an interesting one. It seems to beg the question of "what is the beginning" that is being described. Any thoughts?

[Apech]

18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."

Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that

you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the

end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning;

he will know the end and will not experience death."

 

To me, this is an interesting one. It seems to beg the question of "what is the beginning" that is being described. Any thoughts?

 

To me its the alpha and omega thing. If I can put it that way. An origin is only an origin when it has produced something (like a person is not a father till they have a child ... and a child is not a child without parents). So if you see God as Father then it is like this ... before creation God is not Father but just what 'is'. So He is Alpha and omega ... the beginning and the end (and the in between as well though this does not often get mentioned). So from our perspective as created entities we look forward to the 'end' which is some kind of conclusion or summing up maybe, and backward to the beginning to the source or origin. But this is only our perspective as 'time bound' beings. In eternity it is kind of all-together ... the beginning middle and end ... so if you see the end you also see the beginning.

[Apech]

 

19) Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he

came into being. If you become My disciples and listen to My

words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five

trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and

winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted

with them will not experience death."

[9th]

 

 

 

⁶ Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,

 

 

And into the holy place shall they enter;

 

 

And its fragrance shall be in their bones,

 

 

And they shall live a long life on earth,

 

 

Such as thy fathers lived:

 

 

 

 

And in their days shall no sorrow or plague

 

 

Or torment or calamity touch them.'

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

 

⁶ Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,

And into the holy place shall they enter;

And its fragrance shall be in their bones,

And they shall live a long life on earth,

Such as thy fathers lived:

And in their days shall no sorrow or plague

Or torment or calamity touch them.'

 

Could you provide a reference/citation for this quote?

[9th]

 

¹ And he said unto me: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, ² and why dost thou wish to learn the truth?' Then I answered him saying: 'I wish to ³ know about everything, but especially about this tree.' And he answered saying: 'This high mountain which thou hast seen, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King, will sit, when He shall come down to visit ⁴ the earth with goodness. And as for this fragrant tree no mortal is permitted to touch it till the great judgement, when He shall take vengeance on all and bring (everything) to its consummation ⁵ for ever. It shall then be given to the righteous and holy. Its fruit shall be for food to the elect: it shall be transplanted to the holy place, to the temple of the Lord, the Eternal King.

⁶ Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,

And into the holy place shall they enter;

And its fragrance shall be in their bones,

And they shall live a long life on earth,

Such as thy fathers lived:

And in their days shall no sorrow or plague

Or torment or calamity touch them.'

⁷ Then blessed I the God of Glory, the Eternal King, who hath prepared such things for the righteous, and hath created them and promised to give to them.

- Book of Enoch, Ch. 25

[Jeff]

19) Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he

came into being. If you become My disciples and listen to My

words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five

trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and

winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted

with them will not experience death."

 

In "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into being.", Jesus is speaking about himself and all the enlightened beings who incarnate to uplift humanity. To "listen" means to open and surrender oneself to Jesus's teachings. In talking about the stones, he is saying that all of creation has the "light" of God and one can learn from the world and normal life. The five trees are the Holy Sefirot in the five world or universes. In the ancient jewish tradition, they are the universes of Adam Kadmon, Atzilut, Beriyah, Yetzirah and Asiyah. They are the various "levels" of the soul.

[Apech]

20) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what the Kingdom of

Heaven is like."

He said to them, "It is like a mustard seed, the smallest of

all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great

plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

[Jeff]

20) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what the Kingdom of

Heaven is like."

He said to them, "It is like a mustard seed, the smallest of

all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great

plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

 

For me, this one is pretty straight forward. Tilled soil is fertile ground. Someone who has lived a good life and is open to the word of God. The mustard seed is the divine spark (of the Holy Spirit) that is in all of us. As it grows, it becomes (integrates with) the "tree of life" for all other souls in the world.

[Apech]

20) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what the Kingdom of

Heaven is like."

He said to them, "It is like a mustard seed, the smallest of

all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great

plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

 

For me, this one is pretty straight forward. Tilled soil is fertile ground. Someone who has lived a good life and is open to the word of God. The mustard seed is the divine spark (of the Holy Spirit) that is in all of us. As it grows, it becomes (integrates with) the "tree of life" for all other souls in the world.

 

 

I agree ... it also reminded me of something from yoga (I think) about being infinitely small and big at the same time.

[Jeff]

I agree ... it also reminded me of something from yoga (I think) about being infinitely small and big at the same time.

 

Yes, sort of the seed and the grown tree are really the same thing (essence).