Jhanas

[3bob]

According to doctrine the first jhana exists, and so does the 8th and beyond, further when a true Being reaches the 8th or beyond he does come back later and deny the 1st. (The Vedic related gurus who helped the historic Buddha reach the 8th jhana did not, and neither did the historic Buddha)

 

.

[Jeff]

Hi 3bob,

 

Could you further explain what you are trying to say in the above post? What you think it means or implies.

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[3bob]

Jeff, What are the ramifications and extrapolations in your understanding or opinion?

Edited September 12, 2013 by 3bob

[RongzomFan]

Buddhas gurus were Sramanic, not vedic as far as I know.

Edited September 12, 2013 by alwayson

[Jeff]

Jeff, What are the ramifications and extrapolations in your understanding or opinion?

 

Not fair... I asked first... But, oh well...

 

At the first Jhana, one notices the pleasant sensations of a single pointed focus (or concentration)...

 

By the eighth, you have realized that you were just fooling yourself and that the whole concept of meditation itself is just a "contrived" state of mind...

 

Or, said another way... you "realize" that meditation and normal daily activities are really the same thing.

[thelerner]

Not fair... I asked first... But, oh well...

 

At the first Jhana, one notices the pleasant sensations of a single pointed focus (or concentration)...

 

By the eighth, you have realized that you were just fooling yourself and that the whole concept of meditation itself is just a "contrived" state of mind...

 

Or, said another way... you "realize" that meditation and normal daily activities are really the same thing.

I take it, even with this intellectual understanding. One still needs to move up the scale 1 then 2 then 3.. in order to graduate into naturalness.?

[3bob]

...or where does illusion end (a favorite word) and reality begin? (another favorite word)

[Jeff]

I take it, even with this intellectual understanding. One still needs to move up the scale 1 then 2 then 3.. in order to graduate into naturalness.?

 

 

...or where does illusion end (a favorite word) and reality begin? (another favorite word)

 

Seems to me it sort of depends on what you view as naturalness or the illusion ending...

 

Most people seem to define it at the state of "clarity of mind". At that point, one is past most of the automated ego responses. Things like anger (and irritation) are gone and one can directly respond to the moment.

 

But, from that there one sort of has a "choice" to make...

[3bob]

"Vedic related' is what I said, in the sense of or tracing back relationships to some of the points below: (but I'm not a historic expert nor do I have clairvoyant memories of that time (who does?) it was a long time ago...

 

"Modern Hinduism can be regarded as a combination of Vedic and Shramana traditions as it is substantially influenced by both traditions. Among the Astika schools of Hinduism, Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga are early and very important philosophies that have influenced and been influenced by the Sramana philosophy, with their origins in the Indus Valley period of about 3000-2000 BCE. Yoga follows the Samkhya philosophy of liberating oneself from the grip of Prakriti (nature) through individual effort. Elaborate processes are outlined in Yoga to achieve individual liberation through breathing techniques (Pranayama), physical postures (Asanas) and meditations (Dhyana). Patanjali's Yoga sutra is one product (school) of this philosophy. Other Yogic schools and the Tantra traditions are also important derivatives and branches of the Sramana practices".

[RongzomFan]

I like this thread on the inferiority of the jhanas compared to sexual bliss

 

 

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704&start=0

Edited September 12, 2013 by alwayson

[Seeker of Wisdom]

It's not actually necessary to go through all that jhanas, in my understanding. You don't even need to master the first one, although it definitely wouldn't hurt.

 

What is necessary is access concentration, because that pacifies the 5 hindrances and makes the substrate consciousness accessible when awake and healthy.

 

From pacifying the 5 hindrances, any realisations from vipashyana will be stable, with the full soteriological effect, and far easier to get in the first place.

 

Penetrating through the psyche to the substrate consciousness is necessary before those of us who aren't extremely ripe from previous lives - the vast majority - can overturn the deepest seeds of craving and delusion in the substrate consciousness, unveiling realisation of Tao and Buddha-nature... realisation stable and clear enough to rest in non-meditation until complete enlightenment blooms.

 

Which is what all this is about, right?

[3bob]

I'm not a Buddhist but here is something Buddhist doctrine has to say on the subject of Jhanas:

 

How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana

"9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.

 

10. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away." "No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."

 

11. Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana.

Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away".

 

Thus if one is a Buddhist it would seem these are rather important since the Founder spent his last moments involved with same.

[RongzomFan]

Thus if one is a Buddhist it would seem these are rather important since the Founder spent his last moments involved with same.

 

Buddha taught Hinayana, where jhanas are important.

 

Mahasiddhas taught Vajrayana, where sexual bliss is superior.

Edited September 12, 2013 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

Buddha taught Hinayana, where jhanas are important.

 

Mahasiddhas taught Vajrayana, where sexual bliss is superior.

Mahasiddhas taught Vajrayana, where "tantric" bliss is superior. The sexual aspect is described by those who have not yet realized the first Jhana.

[RongzomFan]

Mahasiddhas taught Vajrayana, where "tantric" bliss is superior. The sexual aspect is described by those who have not yet realized the first Jhana.

 

you just make shit up

[Jeff]

 

you just make shit up

Nope.

 

What does tantric sexual bliss mean to you? What has your teacher taught you?

[RongzomFan]

Nope.

 

 

Yes. Jhanas have nothing to do with tantric sexual bliss.

[Jeff]

 

 

Yes. Jhanas have nothing to do with tantric sexual bliss.

Jhanas have to do with ongoing clarity of the mind (or universal mind). With a more "clouded" mind, tantric flows are experienced as sexual. As clarity "increases", one "drops" the mind attachment that associates the experience as sexual, and one can more directly (or accurately) percieve it.

[RongzomFan]

Jhanas have to do with ongoing clarity of the mind (or universal mind). With a more "clouded" mind, tantric flows are experienced as sexual. As clarity "increases", one "drops" the mind attachment that associates the experience as sexual, and one can more directly (or accurately) percieve it.

 

Jhanas are contrived conceptual meditative states.

[Jeff]

 

Jhanas are contrived conceptual meditative states.

If one has read the full thread, they would see that I said specifically that in post 5. it would also seem to be point of 3bob's leading statement in the original post.

 

But, your statement does not relate to or address the nature of tantra, and it's "mentally" percieved bliss.

[3bob]

Imo it doesn't matter what one says or how many times they say it, (or quote it) unless they at least learn a little bit of what "Right Speech" means or is pointing to, regardless of what path they are on (namely some form Buddhism or something else) otherwise their words are empty in the western sense.

[RongzomFan]

Imo it doesn't matter what one says or how many times they say it, (or quote it) unless they at least learn a little bit of what "Right Speech" means or is pointing to, regardless of what path they are on (namely some form Buddhism or something else) otherwise their words are empty in the western sense.

 

 

Right speech is only Hinayana.

 

If one has read the full thread, they would see that I said specifically that in post 5. it would also seem to be point of 3bob's leading statement in the original post.

 

But, your statement does not relate to or address the nature of tantra, and it's "mentally" percieved bliss.

 

Tantric sexual bliss is not mental.

 

That's the whole point.

[3bob]

"Or, said another way... you "realize" that meditation and normal daily activities are really the same thing".

 

Jeff, what you said above isn't quite what I was trying to get at although it sounds along similar lines. I was trying to allude to the connections between the various Jhanas (as more or less described) and also the connection between the "beyond" and the Jhanas... Thus because of such connections one can not really separate one of them out as unimportant or as illusion.

[Jeff]

 

 

Tantric sexual bliss is not mental.

 

That's the whole point.

All "sexual" perception of the bliss from tantra is a mental association/attachment. That is the point.

 

Any truly advanced teacher can give you this guidance.

 

(sorry for heading sideways in your thread 3bob)

[RongzomFan]

All "sexual" perception of the bliss from tantra is a mental association/attachment. That is the point.

 

The point is sexual bliss is generated by the body and not the mind.