Chapter 1, Section 6 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

Section 6: Oblivious eyes indicate lack of interest in ruling the people

 

 

Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 6 are:

 

Usefulness as a test of value

 

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html

 

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1)

[ChiDragon]

Let's look into the fingers and horses to see what it's all about.....!!!

Edited September 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Wait a minute...!!! I am start looking into this section. There is something wrong here. This section actually belongs to one of the sections in Chapter 2.

[Marblehead]

Wait a minute...!!! I am start looking into this section. There is something wrong here. This section actually belongs to one of the sections in Chapter 2.

Yeah, it depends on who's translation one is reading. We are going to stick with only this updated version of Legge's original translation for the initial discussions, are we not? Else discussions will become very confusing.

[ChiDragon]

Updated version......hahahaha....... :D

The concept of this section falls into the title of Chapter 2. It will be more confusing for me to go into it under this order. It would be difficult for me to comment on Legge's original translation due to the conflicts in concept between Chapters 1 and 2.

[Marblehead]

Updated version......hahahaha....... :D

 

The concept of this section falls into the title of Chapter 2. It will be more confusing for me to go into it under this order. It would be difficult for me to comment on Legge's original translation due to the conflicts in concept between Chapters 1 and 2.

 

Okay. Revised version.

 

How about we just talk about the concept of uselessness as presented here and then when we get to Chapter 2 we can refer back to this section?

 

A one-footed man does not need a "pair" of shoes. The other shoe would be useless.

[Stosh]

I can't take the first bite of this section.. I have no idea what it means.

[dawei]

We're finally at the transformation of Yao and nobody has any words to share... At least Stosh is honest...

 

Useful Men without use of hats... a useless man without the use of a country to rule...

[ChiDragon]

My apologies. Let me start over. I over looked and skipped to Section 6 of Chapter 2; mistakenly thought it was Section 6 of Chapter One.

MH.....
I just found out that I can snow you with anything.....hehehehe

[Marblehead]

My apologies. Let me start over. I over looked and skipped to Section 6 of Chapter 2; mistakenly thought it was Section 6 of Chapter One.

That happens sometimes.

 

MH.....

I just found out that I can snow you with anything.....hehehehe

Hey, how can I argue with your illusions and delusions? They are real in your mind.

 

 

 

 

For Stosh:

 

The first example, the first sentence only, is that the ceremonial caps would be useless to these barbarians who cut off their hair and tattoo their bodies. They know nothing of the ceremonies performed by the "civilized" peoples.

[Stosh]

For Stosh:

 

The first example, the first sentence only, is that the ceremonial caps would be useless to these barbarians who cut off their hair and tattoo their bodies. They know nothing of the ceremonies performed by the "civilized" peoples.

Oh, I was thinking in the lines of 'Shaolin type' monks , because I dont know who barbarians are,

besides,, being a barbarian seems to be a "postive attribute" as Ive read on dao.

I still am lost here.

[Marblehead]

I still am lost here.

Here, take my hand, I will show you so that you can see.

 

Hehehe. Actually, I think you are looking too deep and therefore missed what was at the surface.

[Stosh]

Here, take my hand, I will show you so that you can see.

 

Hehehe. Actually, I think you are looking too deep and therefore missed what was at the surface.

Ok then , take 'er up then, because I see the surface not.

[Marblehead]

Ok then , take 'er up then, because I see the surface not.

I'll beam you up later.

[Marblehead]

Scotty here. I think I got the beamer fixed.

 

Let's look at this first sentence:

 

A man of Sung, who dealt in the ceremonial caps (of Yin), went with them to Yüeh, the people of which cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so that they had no use for them.

 

The salesman, a person of the Sung territory, went to the people of Yueh in order to sell them ceremonial caps. The people of Yueh had very different customs which required them to shave their head hair and have their bodies tattooed, including their heads. Why would they want to buy and wear a cap that held no significance to them to cover up what they were wanting to display?

 

Another example: Would you take your stock of umbrellas to the peoples of a desert where there were always high winds and very rarely any rain? An umbrella for these people would be useless.

 

There is a story later about a man who had both his feet cut off and was a toll collector at one of the border gates. He would spend too much time trying to buy shoes from a shoe salesman.

[ChiDragon]

I can see how a bias version of the translation can change the idea of the original. I not happy with Legg's translation because he added some of his stuff that was misleading. There was no caps at the time nor it was called ceremonial caps. The original was only called out the hats but not ceremonial caps.

A salesman of the Sate of Sung went to State of Yueh to sell his hats. The people of Yueh had very different customs which required them to shave their head hair and have their bodies tattooed, including their heads.

 

In the ancient time, the people are required to bundle up their hair, in order, to wear a hat. The salesman went to a wrong place to sell his products. The moral of the story, here, is that there are certain things that are valuable in one area but maybe useless in the another.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I can see how a bias version of the translation can change the idea of the original. I not happy with Legge's translation because he added some of his stuff that was misleading. There was no caps at the time nor it was called ceremonial caps. The original was only called out the hats but not caps anyway.

 

 

 

A salesman of the State of Sung(宋国) went to State of Yueh(越国) to sell his hats. The people of Yueh had very different customs which required them to shave their head hair and have their bodies tattooed, including their heads.

In the ancient time, the people are required to bundle up their hair, in order, to wear a hat. The salesman went to a wrong place to sell his products. The moral of the story, here, is that there are certain things that are valuable in one area but maybe useless in another.



Edited for typo.

 

 

Section 6 of Chapter 1
Original classic:
　　宋人资章甫而适诸越(1)，越人断发文身(2)，无所用之，尧治天下之民，平海内之政(3)。往见四子藐姑射之山(4)，扮水之阳(5)，官然丧其天下焉(6)。

Modern native translation:
宋国有个人到越国去卖帽子，越国人有断发文身的习俗，用不着帽子。尧治理天下人民，安定国内的政事，到藐姑射山和汾水的北面，拜见四位得道的人士，懂得了更加深远的道理，从而忘掉了他统治天下的地位。

English translation:
A salesman of the State of Sung(宋国) went to State of Yueh(越国) to sell his hats. The people in the State of Yueh are customary have their heads shaved and the body tattooed. Thus they have no need for the hats. Yao ruled the people of China; and took care the internal affairs peacefully. He went to the Mountain Ku She to visit the four highly cultivated Taoists; and learned a great deal of some profound principles. Hence, he had forgotten about his position of being the ruler of China.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I can see how a bias version of the translation can change the idea of the original. I not happy with Legge's translation because he added some of his stuff that was misleading.

I know. I know. I got the message. Hehehe.

 

But what you are doing here is good as long as it follows the initial discussion of the section.

 

And remember, Legge had no other English translation from which to base his translation on. I will confess that I prefer other translators but that is beside the point. I think that more often than not there won't bee any serious problems with using his translation. And it is so easy to access for those who are following this series.

[Stosh]

Ok, both explanation versions work,

The confusion is resolved and this system is working as it should .

No worries!

Next section?

 

[Marblehead]

No worries! Next section?

Boy! Hehehe. As soon as you get satisfied you are ready to move on!

 

Tomorrow would work.

[Stosh]

Wow! Good point. I never noticed that. No basking or rolling in it.

I guess I am just fine with the path of this subject being an unending series of transitions.

But yes, I guess it is rather restless.

Hmmmmn

[dawei]

If we get beyond word-for-word translations... we find there is research on such issues...

 

 

The rites of li are not rites in the Western conception of religious custom. Rather, li embodies the entire spectrum of interaction with humans, nature, and even material objects. Confucius includes in his discussions of li such diverse topics as learning, tea drinking, titles, mourning, and governance. Xunzi cites "songs and laughter, weeping and lamentation...rice and millet, fish and meat...the wearing of ceremonial caps, embroidered robes, and patterned silks, or of fasting clothes and mourning clothes...spacious rooms and secluded halls, soft mats, couches and benches" (Watson 1969) as vital parts of the fabric of li.

 

---

 

Duke Ai of Lu asked Confucius, saying, 'Is not the dress, Master, which you wear that of the scholar?' Confucius replied, 'When I was little, I lived in Lu, and wore the garment with large sleeves; when I was grown up, I lived in Song, and was then capped with the kang-fu cap.

 

---

 

Confucius said: "To make ceremonial hats with hemp is in accordance with the rites. THese days, everyone has his ceremonial hats made of silk.

 

---

 

Included in the idea of ceremony were the clothes that you were to wear, the insignias on the clothing or your carriage, the style of hat worn on special occasions, where you could and could not walk, and even the colors you were allowed to use in clothing and decoration.

[Marblehead]

Thanks Dawei,

 

Chuang Tzu's goal was not to discuss customs, rites, rituals and ceremonies of the time. But he does speak to them on occasion in order to tell his stories. It's nice to know a little bit more of these things because it can make the stories more personal, I think.

[ChiDragon]

........ it can make the stories more personal, I think.

 

That wouldn't be too Wu Wei, isn't it......???

[Marblehead]

 

That wouldn't be too Wu Wei, isn't it......???

It's called adding gravy to the rice.