longevity - good or bad?

[Songtsan]

Would longevity be good if you never physically aged, and had perfect health, and felt great emotionally/mentally, and had enough money to never worry about basic needs?

 

I would say yes, and I think most people would agree.

 

Which really indicates that if one is feeling good - longevity is good, and if one feels bad, longevity is bad. It's all about suffering/pleasure and which state you are in most of the time. I remember times when I was extremely sick, or when I was in prison, and I wished I would just die right then. I prayed for the end. And i remembered times I was on top of the world - recently in fact, where I wished for immortality because I never wanted to leave this place.

 

It's all about pleasure/pain balance.

[steve]

Some words from an old guy -

 

In my 50's, I can say that I don't feel withdrawn from active accomplishments. I do what I can as well as I can (or at least, as well as I feel like it - I get lazy sometimes). Been playing some pretty fair bass lately and progress in meditation and martial training has never been stronger (although it seems much slower...). My teacher told me that internal power is slow to develop and will never develop in someone less than 40 to 50 so your deadline is unfortunately young if you have interest in that sort of thing. I didn't understand fajin until I was about 48 or so... and I'm just starting to understand the circle and the vortices in Baguazhang. So much stuff to work on and so little life...

 

I feel like I'm becoming more confident and relaxed in my profession and have come to peace with many of its challenges, though I still get pissed off sometimes. I love my family more than ever. Even starting to let go of some of the negative feelings with respect to my parents and other close people in my life. I feel blessed every day. I feel more love for other folks than ever. There's plenty of fear there too, but things are somewhat balanced.

 

Less powerful? Physically - yes, but there are aspects of power, endurance, acceptance, persistence, that make up for the physical restrictions. That said, when I was ~ 51 I decided to get more flexible and for the first time in my life achieved enough flexibility to put my palms flat on the floor with my knees extended and relax into this for as long as I choose. I dramatically improved my chronic back pain as a result. I feel more powerful in many ways than when I was younger.

 

I would say I enjoy things as much now as ever though the expectations are more modest and the expression of the drives more sparse. But the enjoyment is there.

 

Close to death? That was already eloquently addressed above - each moment is but a moment from death. To live with that conviction is liberating. [edit - I'm referring to Mr. Marbles, a wise man, IMO _/\_ ]

 

Ugly? I haven't really met any person whose physical appearance was uglier than the idea and emotion you are communicating. True ugliness is deeper and more subtle than fat, wrinkles, yellow teeth, sagging, hair, lack of... But that ugliness is always with us. I would bet that there are plenty of folks your own age and younger that you find ugly. There are physically beautiful people that make me sick and fat or homely people that turn me on. If I'm satisfied with myself and don't attach or expect, I'm beautiful. When I try to live up to your expectations, there is the beginning of ugliness. And I also have that relationship to attend to in myself. Beauty and ugliness define each other and balance each other in youth and age.

 

Life is certainly painful. And so many ups and downs. Moments of insight and delight and stretches of anguish and bitterness... Wishing someone a long life is blessing and cursing as life is full of both. You can come to accept both and live in freedom or struggle and long for death. It's simply a matter of perspective. It's a breath away.

 

 

 

PS I think Cicero was correct and he is giving us a prescription to help us age beautifully, if we have the interest in doing so. To me this has something to do with faith. The decision to continue on despite the pain. I recognize that faith is a bad word to some folks, but when you can let go of beliefs and expectations and concern for what others expect of you, and simply accept what is left over, what is staring you in the face, and know that is truth and it is ok - this is faith, and it is a very good thing for me to practice.

 

 

cicero ( i don't know who he is) said he found four causes for the misery of old age:

 

1. it withdraws us from active accomplishments;

2. it renders the body less powerful;

3 it deprives us of almost all forms of enjoyment; and

4 it stands not far from death.

 

i will add one more,

 

5. ugly.

 

are people crazy or downright mean and putting a curse when they wish each other a long life?

Edited July 4, 2013 by steve

[narveen]

Would longevity be good if you never physically aged, and had perfect health, and felt great emotionally/mentally, and had enough money to never worry about basic needs?

 

this is not a realistic question. a good argument has to be rooted in reality. true spirituality deals with reality.

 

I would say yes, and I think most people would agree.

 

i guess you would and they too.

 

Which really indicates that if one is feeling good - longevity is good, and if one feels bad, longevity is bad. It's all about suffering/pleasure and which state you are in most of the time. I remember times when I was extremely sick, or when I was in prison, and I wished I would just die right then. I prayed for the end. And i remembered times I was on top of the world - recently in fact, where I wished for immortality because I never wanted to leave this place.

 

i feel good and have never gone through a bad time healthwise, financially or emotionally in relationships . really. i think life is great and i feel very lucky to have only great times with none of the bad situations you and others have gone through. in a way, i am living the life that the buddha (according to the story) lived before he saw the bad stuff going on with the rest of the world. once he saw the bad stuff, he was awakened to reality. he realized that his good times wouldn't last. instead of staying in his palace and live it up while he could and seek longevity doing ba duan jin and eating other people's muffins, he took off.

 

It's all about pleasure/pain balance.

 

not for me because that pleasure is impermanent.

[Songtsan]

this is not a realistic question. a good argument has to be rooted in reality. true spirituality deals with reality.

 

 

 

i guess you would and they too.

 

 

i feel good and have never gone through a bad time healthwise, financially or emotionally in relationships . really. i think life is great and i feel very lucky to have only great times with none of the bad situations you and others have gone through. in a way, i am living the life that the buddha (according to the story) lived before he saw the bad stuff going on with the rest of the world. once he saw the bad stuff, he was awakened to reality. he realized that his good times wouldn't last. instead of staying in his palace and live it up while he could and seek longevity doing ba duan jin and eating other people's muffins, he took off.

 

 

not for me because that pleasure is impermanent.

 

How do you break up the quotes like that? I need to learn how to do that.

 

Anyways, in response I use scenario visualizations to create states of mind to see what I would feel like in that state - it is actually very similar to using Dakini visualizations. I have been doing it for years and it is part of my spiritual practice. It works, if you are into it.

 

I know that I am a hedonist by nature, and that if I could have some type of immortal, or at least long-lived bliss filled life, I would choose to do so. I don't judge others who turn away from the bhoga path. I would still have spiritual pursuits, and in fact would pursue my own version of the bodhisattva ideal while living a hedonistic (but ethical) life.

 

It's true that pleasure/pain are impermanent, but even impermanence is impermanent, as everything just changes form, but energy never dies...so it all depends on relativistic stance. When looked at from the large view, the illusions change endlessly, but the absolute reality is nonborn, nondying. A good quote which I am paraphrasing is that one's nature, whether it is mortal or immortal, will never change - the mortal cannot become immortal, the immortal cannot become mortal - I agree with this myself. None of my aggregates will cease to exist, they will only change form, eternally, unless Nirvana is a real and attainable state, and I am not so sure about it. So I know that my essence, although I do not know exactly what it really is, is immortal, and omnipresent.

 

My original point was that those who lead lives that are more pleasurable, will on average be happier staying alive, and that those with more unpleasurable lives will tend to have stronger urges to die. Eros and Thanatos. The two sides of the coin of life/death. Eros is the desire for life, love, consumption, gaining more and more, having more and more bliss, and Thanatos is desire for death, ending it all, getting rid of the burdens, wanting to become consumed, and end to pain.

[narveen]

after you hit the quote button, just put your cursor at the end of the sentence you want a break point and hit enter. hit enter again and again and it will break up the quote.

you are so clever with dragon. how come you don't know this?

Edited July 4, 2013 by narveen

[Songtsan]

you are so clever with dragon. how come you don't know this?

 

I would have sworn I had tried that before...oh well...I miscommunicated with myself...I still haven't gotten Dragon fully trained...its about 85% accurate now...sometimes its hard to start new habits. It works so fast though...they say 3x as fast...but I say 4x...

 

I

[narveen]

Ah I see, ok. So, a select audience or team who are interested in your point of view? Have you found that team or audience here?

 

When the people who are interested in/curious about your point of view on this topic have heard it, what will happen then? Will you move on to a different topic and find people interested in your perspective on that? Or go to a different forum to tell them your point of view?

 

What's the plan?

 

What's the plan? plan for what?

 

having a plan suggests a motive. i don’t have a plot to hatch. I don’t have a scheme to exploit anybody for selfish reasons or for a higher cause. i understand your suspicion because there had been this danger of death and gore, in spiritual circles (think knights templar, heaven’s gate, david Koresh, Jonestown), of things turning out badly and there is need to nip it in the bud.

 

who would be interested in a point of view that places no value in being alive without a cause? curious, yeah. interest? i don’t think so. concur? i hope never; for when two people agree in spiritual matters or politicis, that’s the beginning of mania. and of those who are curious, all are committed to their own convictions regardless of their realization they don’t have a clue why they exist. so, it is with the curious daoists that i engage in debate on why leaves should want longevity and not naturally shrivel and die off in the fall.

 

i got a call from aunt rose 5 years ago to say she was “going”. she was 92. i told her not to be silly as she was still going strong. a couple of days later she passed on, with neither pain nor suffering, in her sleep.

 

aunt rose moved in and had been living for 30 years with her daughter, my aunt mary, and her husband jim the day the two got married. jim was known to be abusive to mary but, funnily, devoted to aunt rose whose presence in their home was a positive influence. she not only held mary’s marriage together and helped her raise five kids but was a wonderful matriarch for all the extended family. then one wintry day, while jim was in his driveway shovelling snow, a car skidded off the street and hit jim flipping him in the air. he survived but the concussion choked off the optic nerve and rendered him blind. that was a week before aunt rose called me, and others in the family, to say goodbye. she had fulfilled her purpose in life, i guess. aunt rose was like a leaf that did not shrivel in the fall until well into the midst of winter when she felt it was time to go. another leaf that stayed green like that was the buddha. as the folktale went, he died in his eighties.

 

you have been a wonderful inspiration for this post. thank you.