Taoism and Race

[Wu Ming Jen]

A lotus blooms from a muddy pool but is not made of mud. The steam is hollow or empty and something beautiful comes into being. Our training does not allow for the outside world to define us. The mountain in many Taoist stories is a metaphor for stillness. All can arrive in a busy city it is the mind that is calm and still in the midst of activity. My son and I were walking out of the mist in the high mountains of China and a Chinese Kung Fu student started laughing and said I thought you were tourist.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Enlightened human, the power is not given to something outside of ourselves. The gods / deities in the east are actual humans that are living and have lived to inspired us to not be animals but divine humans and be responsible for everything in this world. Interesting to know that god in the east means unified mind.

Humans can not agree to partial truths or lies. water flows downward. fire flames up it is not a mental concept it just is .Mentalist philosophy puts human thought over reality and is obscured and unable to arrive. Idealist philosophy is evil. All civilization begins with a world view if it does not match up with reality over time it goes out of existence or in the modern west we use patch work to cover up the original mistake as we go along, pre history puts an end to all of this. there is no equal until some thing is unequal there is no wilderness until there is a city, there is no race until a mentalist separates humans from each other based on how something looks,

Edited March 30, 2013 by Wu Ming Jen

[eye_of_the_storm]

It is more than just how someone looks.

Blood transfusion between different races can be potentially deadly...

It is worth having a look at some medical journals.

To say race is superfical is an insult to the Absolute who created such diversity.

If the absoluted wanted one people... we wouldnt have such diversity and would all be clones.

Nature is infinitely more complex than just skin colour....

Ridiculous totally illogical argument based on absolutely nothing.

If the Chinese arn't interested in western student I think we should respect that.

Or should we put a gun to their head and teach them tolerance?

[chenping]

Manno, I think you need to look at the deeper reasons for your racism, perhaps some rejection by mainlanders or something of the like. The urban rural schism you describe exists in every country and every race. The Japanese are as they are because they have grown up in the culture they grew up in. When a Japanese person grows up in a different culture they will do as is done in that country with some influence by their parents who grew up with their influences as well.

 

Again, you really need to take a closer look at your reasons for prejudice and do something about that because they are quite apparently short cutting your logic on these judgements. I'm not discussing this anymore with you until you do this.

 

I don't know why you keep insisting on stating that Manno is prejudiced. His observations of mainland Chinese conduct are spot on. A friend of mine, a white American woman working for Dell Computers, just returned home to Austin, Texas, after a round the world business trip with the last stop in China's capital. I asked if she liked Beijing. She said no because people were rude and spitting everywhere. If you are upset by Manno's views, you should examine your own emotional responses. Let's be a little more tolerant and give each other more space for free discussions. Thank you.

[shanlung]

I have read some of Blofeld's works, my particular favorite being the Zen Teachings of Huang Po

 

 

When John Blofeld was walking the walk in Taoist monasteries and talking with Taoist Masters and Abbots, and nicely written in English, you neglect to read MOST of his books? When Blofeld is a RECOGNISED expert in Taoism, you read only some of his books? You did not mentioned his books on Taoism , and I must conclude you never read those books.

Spending time in this forum will be enough for you to know about China, Chinese and Tao?

 

You have not known how he prepared himself, his study of Chinese and his earlier travels about China as if that is not at all important as to how that opened the doors later for him?

 

You think in one or two moves, all the temple doors in China will be open to you? When you do not even know Chinese. And those who do not open the doors are therefore racist to you. If the abbots do not bother to learn English to talk to you that therefore you are being deliberatly excluded?

 

I am Chinese, and I do believe my Chinese knowledge is better than what you ever hope to be. I have stayed in over a dozen temples in Taiwan and China for a few nights at a time. I knew I was an outsider, and I remained respectfully an outsider content to listen to their temple bells before the break of dawn, to watch their assembly for prayers and rituals satisfied they let me lived with them for a nominal sum and to join them in their meals.

 

Do I take offense the abbot did not talk to me? I was sure he had better things to do. I was not sure if I was ready to talk to him even if I stayed a few nights over.

 

If I was ready to talk to him, he would have talked to me. I was not , and did not care to be a dilettante. To amuse myself by making him talk to me when I knew I was not ready then, or now. Maybe reporting that in some forums or later writing a book on all that.

 

What wonderful self fullfilling proclamations that you make.

 

When other like Blofeld could open the doors, you getting ready excuses for doors being closed. Or is Blofeld not Westerner enough for you? And you not even interested to find out how he got doors to open for him? That that was long time ago and therefore you have no time for that? You have that kind of mental insight things like that only happened then and not now?

 

I withdraw from this conversation. Since you do not care to take your notes from Blofeld, neither do I think you care to take your notes from me or others for that matter.

 

Whatever you are searching for, when you do know what you are searching for, I can only wish you luck.

 

Idiot on the Path

[chenping]

Both race AND environment contribute to the influencing of the individual's psyche.

 

The individual is a representative of his or her race and (cultural) environment.

 

For eg, the Japanese has an extremely high standard of cleanliness and hygiene. The Chinese have this filthy habit of spitting on the streets. Now if a Chinese person walk on the streets in Japan and he spits on the street, a thousand and one pairs of Japanese eyes will look at him and chastise him silently for performing such a filthy act.

 

This is your perspective and I understand where you are coming from. The mainland Chinese who spits won't see it as a filthy habit as you do. Tiger Woods still spits on the golf course. In Mr Woods case, I am sure he knows it isn't the thing to do. It is a curious habit. The Chinese in Singapore used to spit habitually until Prime Minster Lee Kuan Yew put a stop to it. Malay Muslims in Malaysia spit in the streets during the fasting month of Ramadan because they believe that even swallowing saliva would violate the fast. They would even turn their heads to spit as they overtake you speeding down city roads on their motorbikes. It's disgusting to see their spittle messing up your car windscreen.

 

The Chinese, being the uneducated bumpkin that he is, will think that there is nothing wrong with spitting on the streets. But the peer pressure from the Japanese will slowly change the Chinese and evolve the Chinese into a somewhat cleaner person.

 

I will be frank with you. There are too many Overseas Chinese who are disgusted with the Mainlander Chinese themselves. Even within China, there is a schism between the rural Chinese and the urbanized, more educated Chinese.

 

No one likes to be in crude company. I am sure a higher evolved alien life-form would find all humans disgusting. You may wonder why and ask "who? disgusting? even me" You may not spit in the street but you eat chicken and have sex. Now, that would really make higher life forms throw up.

 

You need to understand that the mainland Chinese have suffered tremendous hardships. Not long ago, before Mao Zedong, lots of people in China were homeless. Whole families - parents and their kids - were dying off in the street from hunger. Things only started getting relatively better under Mao even though his policies were harsh. Even now, life is hard for most Chinese, much harder compared to the lot of the poor of Japan and America.

Edited March 30, 2013 by chenping

[ChiForce]

The individual is a representative of his or her race and (cultural) environment.

 

 

This is your perspective and I understand where you are coming from. The mainland Chinese who spits won't see it as a filthy habit as you do. Tiger Woods still spits on the golf course. In Mr Woods case, I am sure he knows it isn't the thing to do. It is a curious habit. The Chinese in Singapore used to spit habitually until Prime Minster Lee Kuan Yew put a stop to it. Malay Muslims in Malaysia spit in the streets during the fasting month of Ramadan because they believe that even swallowing saliva would violate the fast. They would even turn their heads to spit as they overtake you speeding down city roads on their motorbikes. It's disgusting to see their spittle messing up your car windscreen.

 

 

No one likes to be in crude company. I am sure a higher evolved alien life-form would find all humans disgusting. You may wonder why and ask "who? disgusting? even me" You may not spit in the street but you eat chicken and have sex. Now, that would really make higher life forms throw up.

 

You need to understand that the mainland Chinese have suffered tremendous hardships. Not long ago, before Mao Zedong, lots of people in China were homeless. Whole families - parents and their kids - were dying off in the street from hunger. Things only started getting relatively better under Mao even though his policies were harsh. Even now, life is hard for most Chinese, much harder compared to the lot of the poor of Japan and America.

Hahahaha.....this isn't referring to you but I think some people are still living under a rock. Hmm...Japanese.... I am no running dogs. I have no Japanese fetish. I am not into anime or anime sex. Seriously, when mainland Chinese boycotted Japanese products like cars, the whole Japanese industry and economy came to a halt. And the latest conflicts over some offshore islands??? If any Chinese are having some sorts of Japanese-Chinese complex, you better work on the Skandha of forms. Otherwise, the Tao would actually run away from you. And you better work on your grounding too.

[chenping]

ChiForce, since the first ten years of your life was spent growing up in Hong Kong, what is your opinion on the westerner's idea of Taoism? Is it different from your grandfather's idea of Taoism?

[ChiForce]

ChiForce, since the first ten years of your life was spent growing up in Hong Kong, what is your opinion on the westerner's idea of Taoism? Is it different from your grandfather's idea of Taoism?

Sadly, I am a wild child. An orphan in his own time. Like Siegfried in Wagner's Ring. There were little discussions about Taoism at all. This was Hong Kong during the 80s. The Hong Kongers, being the subjects of her royal highness of the Queen Elizabeth, learning and speaking English was the thing...the status symbol. Western ideas and ideals were often promoted but without some clear understanding of their impacts. Taoism is always experienced in movies, TV shows, and films. Beyond that, nothing was passed down to me from this world. I had to receive my teaching in America, in my dreams, from the distance forgotten Chinese ancestral past. Very pure and romantic. Straight transmission from the mind to mind.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Looking at genetics there are very very small differences in race.look at your environment are you white and pasty from living in the snowy north or dark from lots of sunshine or hairy because you live outside. We are all humans but those who judge can say we are not the same. superficial? fear, violence,separation, distinctions these things are for mortals who forgot where they came from.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Yes lets look at genetics...

I'm sure you've heard it before; humans and chimpanzees are about 98.8% similar. What does that really mean though? This number refers to comparing single nucleotide changes in the DNA, or changes in the sequence of the A,C,G,T code.

Comparing genetic duplications in genes, the number lowers to 96%. What's a duplication? As Even Eichler of University of Washington says, if we consider the genetic code as a book, entire pages will be repeated in one species but not the other. So conservatively, we are 96% alike with out closest cousin. Here's some other common animals and our genetic similarites (these numbers are consistent across all reliable sources):

Cat: 90%
Cow: 80%
Mouse: 75%
Fruit Fly: 60%
Banana: 50%

http://genecuisine.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/human-dna-similarities-to-chimps-and.html

Those very, very small differences... ha

We are all humans?

Meow...

I mean yes...

Edited March 30, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Wu Ming Jen]

Now we are getting closer to some truth. In difference there is no difference..

[Kongming]

When John Blofeld was walking the walk in Taoist monasteries and talking with Taoist Masters and Abbots, and nicely written in English, you neglect to read MOST of his books? When Blofeld is a RECOGNISED expert in Taoism, you read only some of his books? You did not mentioned his books on Taoism , and I must conclude you never read those books.

Spending time in this forum will be enough for you to know about China, Chinese and Tao?

 

You have not known how he prepared himself, his study of Chinese and his earlier travels about China as if that is not at all important as to how that opened the doors later for him?

 

You think in one or two moves, all the temple doors in China will be open to you? When you do not even know Chinese. And those who do not open the doors are therefore racist to you. If the abbots do not bother to learn English to talk to you that therefore you are being deliberatly excluded?

 

I am Chinese, and I do believe my Chinese knowledge is better than what you ever hope to be. I have stayed in over a dozen temples in Taiwan and China for a few nights at a time. I knew I was an outsider, and I remained respectfully an outsider content to listen to their temple bells before the break of dawn, to watch their assembly for prayers and rituals satisfied they let me lived with them for a nominal sum and to join them in their meals.

 

Do I take offense the abbot did not talk to me? I was sure he had better things to do. I was not sure if I was ready to talk to him even if I stayed a few nights over.

 

If I was ready to talk to him, he would have talked to me. I was not , and did not care to be a dilettante. To amuse myself by making him talk to me when I knew I was not ready then, or now. Maybe reporting that in some forums or later writing a book on all that.

 

What wonderful self fullfilling proclamations that you make.

 

When other like Blofeld could open the doors, you getting ready excuses for doors being closed. Or is Blofeld not Westerner enough for you? And you not even interested to find out how he got doors to open for him? That that was long time ago and therefore you have no time for that? You have that kind of mental insight things like that only happened then and not now?

 

I withdraw from this conversation. Since you do not care to take your notes from Blofeld, neither do I think you care to take your notes from me or others for that matter.

 

Whatever you are searching for, when you do know what you are searching for, I can only wish you luck.

 

Idiot on the Path

 

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I didn't actually go to China or any Taoist temples, find doors closed to me, and then create a thread complaining about racial prejudice. I was merely asking if such a scenario were possible based upon things I've heard others say and the fact that for most of its history Taoism was an ethnic religion.

 

Nothing I've said has had anything to do with my personal experiences, my ambitions, what I am willing to do nor not do, and so forth.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Now we are getting closer to some truth. In difference there is no difference..

 

So you are telling me... you can't tell the difference between a cat, a cow or a human?

 

That must make life interesting

 

I guess as you consider there to be no difference... and not a fan of fear, violence, separation etc you would be vegetarian at the least right?

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

I Have studied in China only recently foreigners were accepted as students. Even in the states it takes at least 3 years for a master to know you and your character/ moral standards and feel good about passing on the transmission. There are definitive rules to who you teach based on virtue and many things about our own personalities.This is based on my own experience.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I can not recognize things unless I am related to them in some way. I can be as steady as a rock, as fierce as a tiger, round or square at will, I can be extremely violent or completely peaceful at any moment..

[chenping]

Looking at genetics there are very very small differences in race.look at your environment are you white and pasty from living in the snowy north or dark from lots of sunshine or hairy because you live outside. We are all humans but those who judge can say we are not the same. superficial? fear, violence,separation, distinctions these things are for mortals who forgot where they came from.

 

I would rather rely on common sense and not science to determine racial truths. To say that we are all humans under the skin is sappy and has a ring of political correctness. But I would agree that we, including my dog, are all animals because that would appeal to common sense. The craziness starts when we are motivated by political sentiments to ignore the reality of racial differences and lump all people together as humans, and segregate us people from other dumb animals and see their straight sex as mating and our kinky stuff as making love.

[chenping]

Isn't this proof that the Vatican doesn't want humanity to liberate themselves from Samsara?!

 

Enough Said!

 

Not really. I have not said anything yet.

 

The Pope is right about Eastern meditative practices as not the Tao of Christian prayer. The shepherd has the right to guide his flock. If you are A Buddhist, it is bad form to say that Catholics are brainwashed and that Buddhism is the one true faith.

 

Every flock of sheep follows its own faith. When several different flocks intermingle, some sheep could stray. It's the job of the shepherd to protect every last sheep and keep the flock intact.

 

You have a problem with that?

[chenping]

Sadly, I am a wild child. An orphan in his own time. Like Siegfried in Wagner's Ring. There were little discussions about Taoism at all.

 

It has been said that water cannot know what water is. To be a Chinese in Hong Kong is to be a drop of water in the sea of Taoism. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao and that was why you never had to discuss it.

 

This was Hong Kong during the 80s. The Hong Kongers, being the subjects of her royal highness of the Queen Elizabeth, learning and speaking English was the thing...the status symbol. Western ideas and ideals were often promoted but without some clear understanding of their impacts.

 

The only way for every Chinese to get ahead economically was to learn English. It was the upward climb and the money that came with success that gave English-speaking Chinese in Hong Kong status. Western ideals are Chinese ideals: Make Big Money.

 

Taoism is always experienced in movies, TV shows, and films. Beyond that, nothing was passed down to me from this world. I had to receive my teaching in America, in my dreams, from the distance forgotten Chinese ancestral past. Very pure and romantic. Straight transmission from the mind to mind.

 

The teaching in America is a different kind of Taoism. The Taoism of Hong Kong Chinese movies is yet another kind. The forgotten kind of the Chinese ancestral past is the kind that cannot be told.

[shanlung]

Well let me ask you. When an ant look at Mount Fuji and Mount Everest, can an ant actually tell the difference between Mount Fuji and Mount Everest?

 

 

 

I like that.

 

I removed all mention of God/Buddha.

I feel word debased them.

 

Extracting and quoting here from what i wrote earlier

Tao ke Tao, and where is God

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24825-tao-ke-tao-and-where-is-god/

 

Tao ke Tao , fei chang Tao

Ming ke Ming, fei chang Ming

 

The Tao that you think is the Tao, is not the Tao

The Name that you think is the Name, is not the Name

 

 

 

 

How many of us read and re read the TTC in all its different versions from the thin to the thick?

 

And read the first couple of sentences, threw them aside and kept digging in the left over bath waters?

 

And kept asking what is the Tao.

 

Even to castigate Chuangtzu for not being a real Taoist as his writings never contained and invoke Tao. For all I know, LaoTzu was only a Pretender as he certaining talked of the Tao , even if his first couple of sentences denied everything he wrote subsequently.

 

When the Tao is beyond immeasurable and beyond infinite, even to think of the Tao and its concept, you cannot but defined the Tao, the Undefinable Tao , within the concept of what you think is the Tao.

 

Likewise, the Name that you try to give to that Name. Imprisoned the real Name into the representation you made in your mind of that Name. The Name so vast and primordial all squeezed into a tiny container of the Name?

 

Perhaps that came from the great East and West divide. The West, be it Chrisitianity, Judaism or Islam, demanded the concept of God. And the East? Godless or the refusal to accept the concept of God. But I have so say Judaism tried to limit the damage by evoking unpronouncable JHWH. Which failed as that became Jehovah, and yet another name.

 

But again, if God is that infinite and everywhere, by giving the thought of God, are people then differentiating anything outside their thought of what God is is then not God? Is God that limited ? That God must exist only within that name, or concept, of GOD? Or the limitation came from the very thinking of the concept God.

 

So those that want to talk of God, tell me then, where is your God. And why do you wish to limit your God by talking of Him , and of his Name.

 

My first posting into here came as a hit on a very old webpage I did about 10 years ago, and based on earlier writings I did on BBS before the Internet.

 

I reproduce that here, what was said by Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng.

 

http://www.shanlung....taonirvana.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

ENLIGHTENMENT

 

From: khamba2 -

Date: Wed, Jun 2 1999 12:00 am

 

Groups: alt.philosophy.taoism

 

 

Paul Humphries <[email protected]> wrote:

 

 

>Hi!

 

>I feel a bit skeptical about enlightenment at the moment, so wish to ask

>some questions to anyone who has any ideas..

 

 

>When a person reaches the state of pure, total enlightment and absolute

>truth, what does this mean? Is it that they are now learning openly to

>the greatest of their potential? What sort of knowledge of reality

>emerges? What abilities does this give the person? How many truely

>enlightened masters exist, do you think? How do they live? Would they

>have any preferences in taste in music?

 

 

>Cheers!

 

 

 

Sorry that I am answering with this is an old letter. I do hope the

words of Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng can answer a bit of your

question even if he did not mention his preferences for music be it

classical, hard rock or heavy metal.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----

 

 

I have mourned that many of my books stayed back in my home town

while I was wandering ,working and staying elsewhere.

 

 

But a selection of John Blofeld's books followed me.

 

 

I thought I quote one of my favorite portion from his book 'Taoism,

The Secret and Sublime' which may help others understand and decide

for themselves if Taoism is a philosophy or a religion.

 

 

I myself, never did feel that either path is important.

 

 

He was talking to this Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng.

 

 

(now using also his format and capitalizations..)

--------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Having heard from me of Sir Edwin Arnold's lovely expression for

entering Nirvana, 'the dew-drop slips into the shining sea', he

exclaimed with delight, but added:

 

 

'And yet it does not capture the whole. Since the Tao is all and

nothing lies outside it, since its multiplicity and unity are

identical, when a finite being sheds the illusion of separate

existence, he is not lost in the Tao. By casting off his imaginary

limitations, he becomes immeasurable.

 

 

Plunge the finite into the infinite and, though only one remains, the

finite, far from being diminished, takes on the stature of infinity.

Such perception will bring you face to face with the true secret

cherished by all the accomplished sages. The mind of one who returns

to the Source thereby BECOMES the Source. Your own mind is DESTINED

TO BECOME THE UNIVERSE ITSELF!'

 

 

The Taoistic Idiot

[ChiForce]

It has been said that water cannot know what water is. To be a Chinese in Hong Kong is to be a drop of water in the sea of Taoism. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao and that was why you never had to discuss it.

 

 

The only way for every Chinese to get ahead economically was to learn English. It was the upward climb and the money that came with success that gave English-speaking Chinese in Hong Kong status. Western ideals are Chinese ideals: Make Big Money.

 

 

The teaching in America is a different kind of Taoism. The Taoism of Hong Kong Chinese movies is yet another kind. The forgotten kind of the Chinese ancestral past is the kind that cannot be told.

I am not sure you understand. Learning to speak English was a luxury. You don't need to speak English to get ahead in Hong Kong. It would certainly help back in the 80s. This is the same reason I have no love for English. Yes, I speak and write in English that's because that's the only language I am fluent in. Ironically, my English didn't improve until I was reading on the English translation of German literally works. Nietzsche and Goethe. And Carl Jung was very important in my intellectual development during my intense self reflection.

 

Also, the popular culture Taoism is basically......popular culture. Is hard for anyone who is serious about spiritual Enlightenment to take it seriously. Of course, once I was in America, I was no longer exposed to these popular culture Taoism. I was basically on my own, in a to live or die situation. While every college kid was living a college life during their late teens. I was trying to sort out my childhood experiences because bad dreams and memories were erupting. Individuals with a stable upbringing do not try to psychoanalyze themselves. They don't hid in the college library and surrounding oneself with books on philosophy and psychoanalysis. I am not lying but it was Carl Jung who brought me back in touch with Chinese philosophy. Here, once again, Carl Jung wasn't even part of the college required reading. Yet, as if it was my destiny, I have discovered him.

 

I also would like to comment that after my kundalini experience, I encountered a blue eyed monk in my second college's registration office. He has a pair of blue eyes without pupils. He was dressed in modern clothing. He wasn't blind but he could see. I didn't know why or how he got there. I wrote about my kundalini experience in my religion class. Ironically, the professor didn't know anything about it. This was during the late 90s. Maybe the phenomena of kundalini experience wasn't well known. Oh, the monk...yeah, he said I should learn knowledge for myself and said to me with a smile. Of course, I felt embarrassed when he said that because I knew what he meant. Again, he was very important and he was one of the guides on my path. I have another guide but he is a spirit. Of course, I knew nothing what was happening to me and so I didn't try to talk to the monk afterward. I saw him few times in the cafeteria. Something that I am really regretted. I hope our paths would meet one day. Now, at least, I know what questions to ask him.

Edited March 31, 2013 by ChiForce

[manitou]

Rebelbodda said: "The truth is that the Pope and other higher Vatican clergy, the British Royalty, Rockefellers, Rothschilds and other elite rich have been practising the art of meditation, enlightenment and spiritual cultivation for thousands of years. They then used their spiritual power to amass trillions of dollars and political control over the masses."

 

 

This might be oxymoronic. I agree with you that the Vatican et al has spirited away many of the teachings of enlightenment; but a truly Enlightened one wouldn't have it in his heart to keep it all for himself and not give it freely to others. This is not enlightenment. This is merely protecting the path to enlightenment from others.

 

And I fully agree - they did it. The Nag Hammadi scriptures are a stark example because the words of Jesus pertain to enlightenment, not the watered down stuff in Matthew Mark Luke & John.

Edited March 31, 2013 by manitou

[chenping]

And I fully agree - they did it. The Nag Hammadi scriptures are a stark example because the words of Jesus pertain to enlightenment, not the watered down stuff in Matthew Mark Luke & John.

 

Watered down? How? I contend that the English-translated Tao Te Ching is a watered down version. Are you saying the same thing with regard to Jesus' words in the English translations of the Gospels? I hope you are not saying something else to the effect that there is some other record, other than the Gospels, of what Jesus said.

[manitou]

Watered down? How? I contend that the English-translated Tao Te Ching is a watered down version. Are you saying the same thing with regard to Jesus' words in the English translations of the Gospels? I hope you are not saying something else to the effect that there is some other record, other than the Gospels, of what Jesus said.

 

 

Do read the Nag Hammadi gospels - yes, he goes much more into individual enlightenment throughout. He talks more about the 'I Am' consciousness. It's quite a read.

 

I agree on the 'watered down' aspect of anything translated. This is why it's best to read many translations and triangulate your own wisdom from it - because every translator starts from the starting point of his own understanding. A less enlightened translator will produce a less enlightened product. Certainly we must include the new testament in that as well, being translated from sanskrit or coptic?

 

The only thing that would omit Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from the translation problem would be to wish to believe that the bible is direct revelation from the Source. Are you prepared to say that?

[chenping]

Do read the Nag Hammadi gospels - yes, he goes much more into individual enlightenment throughout. He talks more about the 'I Am' consciousness. It's quite a read.

 

I have never heard of the Nag Hammadi gospels. Ok, I will check that out and report back.

 

I agree on the 'watered down' aspect of anything translated. This is why it's best to read many translations and triangulate your own wisdom from it - because every translator starts from the starting point of his own understanding. A less enlightened translator will produce a less enlightened product. Certainly we must include the new testament in that as well, being translated from sanskrit or coptic?

 

Why not take the translation at face value and judge it based on its own merit? There is no way to get at the source through translations no matter how many triangulations you perform. Reading many menus and triangulating them will not get the actual food in your belly.

 

The only thing that would omit Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from the translation problem would be to wish to believe that the bible is direct revelation from the Source. Are you prepared to say that?

 

I take Jesus' words in the Gospels at face value. I see uncommon wisdom in those words and the Source is irrelevant. If I am lost in the forest and a map shows the way out, would I care who drew the map?

Edited April 1, 2013 by chenping