5 Shens Model of Alchemy

[kevin_wallbridge]

If we fall in love with someone and it is a true deep experience.. what is the role of the Hun in this and what is the role of the Shen?

 

Ah, going right to the deeper end of the spectrum.

 

Lets consider the relationship of the Hun and the Shen. Throughout one's life how much discord has developed between the innate aspirations, drives and the unique pressures forward in what we may call 命 Ming (often rendered as destiny, but in this case not pre-destination, more a "most positive potential outcome.") and internal mythology of the self that we manufactured through conscious and unconscious experience? Some of us are easy going and adaptable, not being so deeply scarred by the insults we receive so that we can freely manifest our destiny, so to speak. Others of us struggle against the wounds and have to make war with our own lives to advance into spirituality, often surrendering to the damage and becoming our coping mechanisms instead.

 

In an ideal world where the Shen is a brilliant shining reflection of the deep grounding of the Hun, that aspect of the Hun from which compassion and empathy spring illuminates the things in the world that best match the particular speed direction and pressure that our pre-Heaven gives us. The things we fall in love with are the things that are "for" us, because we are already connected to them at the pre-Heaven level.

 

This is rarely the case. More often, that drive to connect and express compassion and empathy gets side-tracked to a greater of lesser degree by the needs arising from the wounds and injuries and the striving of the self to re-balance and heal. Lets say a person has had a childhood experience of abandonment, loss of a parent through death or divorce. This may give them a predisposition towards fear of abandonment and result in trust issues. This is a distortion of the cognitive process at the level of the 志 (here we mean in terms of the nature of experience 意志思慮智). When they are experiencing empathy and emotional connection they get a bit side tracked as they compare the experience of the other to the self. When memory influences them, usually at a subconscious level, their doubt and fear can creep in. They may begin to question and second-guess the feelings. They may have, and so express, an unconscious need to test the other's motives in the connection, thereby undermining the budding relationship and therefore self-fulfilling the fear of abandonment.

 

This is not just a matter of the mind, as the self is a spectrum from meat to spirit. Anyone who is manifesting this kind of deep seated disorder that affects the 志 Zhi is also going to be manifesting some kind of Kidney Qi issues. Not necessarily severe symptoms, yet the physiological signs will be there. It will certainly show up as a curiosity in their pulse.

 

For most us we fall between scenarios like this. Some level of deep inspiration moves us and some level of scar tissue puts a perturbation into our unfolding spiral of existence. Some things and folks once found are with us forever. Sometimes it is just a crossing point and the root of the empathic connection cannot survive the the pressure. Sometimes we bump into each other for a while before we recognize what the Hun knows from the beginning and love grows between us. Sometimes we mistake our need for our inspiration and as a result we break into a thousand pieces. The more the Shen is aligned to the Hun the less distortion and damage distorts the perception, and the deeper and more real the connections we form can be.

 

I'm not sure that gets directly at the question.

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[kevin_wallbridge]

Do you practice and /or train people in healing, or what, Kevin?

 

I'm a medical anthropologist by training and professor of Chinese medicine at the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences (東方古典科學院) in Nelson, BC, Canada (www.acos.org). I specialize in 清志病 Qing Zhi Bing, disorders of the emotions and will. I've been practising martial arts for nearly 30 years and trained Qigong in China.

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[voidisyinyang]

I'm a medical anthropologist by training and professor of Chinese medicine at the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences (東方古典科學院) in Nelson, BC, Canada (www.acos.org). I specialize in 清志病 Qing Zhi Bing, disorders of the emotions and will. I've been practising martial arts for nearly 30 years and trained Qigong in China.

 

Cool - what do you think of Nancy Chen's book?

 

 

Breathing Spaces: Qigong, Psychiatry and Healing in China, Columbia University Press, 2003.

 

http://anthro.ucsc.edu/faculty/singleton.php?&singleton=true&cruz_id=nchen

 

For example the belief that a student can have long distance communication with the qigong master - this is considered qigong deviance in China.

 

Do you think that is a possibility for real? Or....

 

ties into the shen issue...

Edited August 4, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[kevin_wallbridge]

cat

 

Not so impressive, it just looks good on the resume. Smoke and mirrors really. I just had the good fortune to hear the lesson "mastery is mastery of the basics" relatively early on my journey. I just do the basics and leave mastery to someone who wants to keep score.

 

Taomeow

 

To be honest I don't really understand your disagreement. Except that you seem to feel that the Wuxing is useful in all circumstances. I'm in no way denying its usefulness, however, I believe I must point out that in Chinese medicine as is it practised no model can be applied in all circumstances. This isn't a personal choice option, its the method of the 黃帝內經, 難經, 針灸甲乙經, 伤寒論, 針灸大成 (just a list of books) and so on. Using one model for all circumstances isn't the Chinese medicine of the classics and I for one am cautious about trying to impose modern frames and sensibilities upon it (that is an oblique reference to the approach of JR Worsley).

 

pythagorean...

 

I haven't read it. It seems a bit more anecdotal than most of the clinical materials I look at and I have never come across it.

Edited August 6, 2013 by kevin_wallbridge

[voidisyinyang]

pythagorean...

 

I haven't read it. It seems a bit more anecdotal than most of the clinical materials I look at and I have never come across it.

 

She's a medical anthropologist who went to the psych wards in China - so yeah it's all just anecdotal.

 

But what do you think of "qigong deviance" as a medical term?

 

To me - it's the materialists trying to control something they don't understand.

 

Anthropology - Paul Stoller attacked by I.M. Lewis for Stoller's training as a shaman.

 

umm of course Castaneda being a fake but people still believing he is a teacher when he led an abusive cult.

 

The margaret mead and that Yanomami disaster...

 

yeah anthropology - have you read David Palmer's book "Qigong Fever"? He teaches in hong kong. I think he's doing a new book on Mantak Chia students or something - more like a Western qigong perspective.

[Taomeow]

cat

 

Not so impressive, it just looks good on the resume. Smoke and mirrors really. I just had the good fortune to hear the lesson "mastery is mastery of the basics" relatively early on my journey. I just do the basics and leave mastery to someone who wants to keep score.

 

Taomeow

 

To be honest I don't really understand your disagreement. Except that you seem to feel that the Wuxing is useful in all circumstances. I'm in no way denying its usefulness, however, I believe I must point out that in Chinese medicine as is it practised no model can be applied in all circumstances. This isn't a personal choice option, its the method of the 黃帝內經, 難經, 針灸甲乙經, 伤寒論, 針灸大成 and so on. Using one model for all circumstances isn't the Chinese medicine of the classics and I for one am cautious about trying to impose modern frames and sensibilities upon it (that is an oblique reference to the approach of JR Worsley).

 

pythagorean...

 

I haven't read it. It seems a bit more anecdotal than most of the clinical materials I look at and I have never come across it.

Kevin, "mastery is mastery of the basics" is right, so the disagreement we're having is about what constitutes the basics. From my own studies and practices, wuxing is not a "theory" to apply or not apply, it's part of the basics, that's my main point. It can seemingly be ignored when a problem seems "local" or "unrelated" but a deeper wuxing analysis might reveal what brought about the local problem toward this particular patient to begin with, and prove very relevant. I feel that cutting off this premise is reductionist in the best traditions of Western medicine rather than TCM -- extract and separate a symptom or a set of symptoms, nevermind the bigger picture. I'm told most of modern TCM is taught and practiced this way, so you are backed up by a "new tradition." I'm talking tradition proper which never discards wuxing for any purposes -- even when it is not directly applied, it is always implied.

 

Oh, and I should perhaps mention that most people here don't read Chinese characters, and those who do are usually asked to accommodate those who don't by using pinyin and/or a translation.

 

Also, if you could point me to the source of a Hun-Shen juxtaposition? How is hun not a shen or not part of Shen?

 

Thank you!

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[kevin_wallbridge]

pftotus

 

But what do you think of "qigong deviance" as a medical term?

 

Oh I have seen Qigong deviance . The mere belief in distance healing may be a bit harsh for its diagnosis. Its not something I have ever participated in, yet it was something my teachers' teacher used with some regularity. The Qigong world in China is a pretty strange place and full of myth, dysfunction, personality cults and charlatanism. Still there is really good stuff there too. Though my own practice has led me out into the aether from time to time, it doesn't hold any appeal for me. I like it simple and pragmatic.

 

Tm

 

I'm told most of modern TCM is taught and practiced this way

 

Yes I have heard that too, usually as part of a justification for a narrower methodology than is found in the classics. I have been studying, teaching and creating curriculum around the history of Chinese medicine for 18 years. Western views of its history tend to be largely informed by a myth that the Communists "broke" Chinese medicine and the "real" traditions only exist outside the mainland, which just isn't true. I could give you several clinical examples of where Wuxing is irrelevant to the issue, but that is really another topic altogether. I would just like to leave it here for now.

 

The word 神 Shen, as I mention in the original post, is used in broad and narrow ways. I have been using it in a specific way as I outlined in that post. When the "Five Spirits" are talked about it is actually the 五志 Wuzhi, the "Five Wills." Can Hun be considered Shen from a certain perspective, yes... but these cases are broad sweeps and not attempts to define or delineate. The idea of pre/post-heaven is less explicit in the Neijing itself, it really became a topic of debate 1000 years ago in the Song period. Its hard to find the sources in English, but if you can find something like 張志聰 Zhang Zhicong's 黃帝內經素問集注 Huangdi Neijing Suwen Jizhu (Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic Plain Questions with commentaries) from 1670 much of the debate around the issue is compiled there. Though I doubt it is in translation anywhere.

[ChiDragon]

 

But what do you think of "qigong deviance" as a medical term?

pftotus

 

 

Oh I have seen Qigong deviance . The mere belief in distance healing may be a bit harsh for its diagnosis. Its not something I have ever participated in, yet it was something my teachers' teacher used with some regularity. The Qigong world in China is a pretty strange place and full of myth, dysfunction, personality cults and charlatanism. Still there is really good stuff there too. Though my own practice has led me out into the aether from time to time, it doesn't hold any appeal for me. I like it simple and pragmatic.

 

Tm

 

With all respect...!!! That was an honest opinion.

 

Based with my understanding, the Chinese Chi Kung practitioners use the term 偏差(deviance) for an indication of a deviation which was diverged from the original procedure. The deviation may or may not cause minor or serious physical problems in the future.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

pftotus

 

 

Oh I have seen Qigong deviance . The mere belief in distance healing may be a bit harsh for its diagnosis. Its not something I have ever participated in, yet it was something my teachers' teacher used with some regularity. The Qigong world in China is a pretty strange place and full of myth, dysfunction, personality cults and charlatanism. Still there is really good stuff there too. Though my own practice has led me out into the aether from time to time, it doesn't hold any appeal for me. I like it simple and pragmatic.

 

Tm

 

 

Yes I have heard that too, usually as part of a justification for a narrower methodology than is found in the classics. I have been studying, teaching and creating curriculum around the history of Chinese medicine for 18 years. Western views of its history tend to be largely informed by a myth that the Communists "broke" Chinese medicine and the "real" traditions only exist outside the mainland, which just isn't true. I could give you several clinical examples of where Wuxing is irrelevant to the issue, but that is really another topic altogether. I would just like to leave it here for now.

 

The word 神 Shen, as I mention in the original post, is used in broad and narrow ways. I have been using it in a specific way as I outlined in that post. When the "Five Spirits" are talked about it is actually the 五志 Wuzhi, the "Five Wills." Can Hun be considered Shen from a certain perspective, yes... but these cases are broad sweeps and not attempts to define or delineate. The idea of pre/post-heaven is less explicit in the Neijing itself, it really became a topic of debate 1000 years ago in the Song period. Its hard to find the sources in English, but if you can find something like 張志聰 Zhang Zhicong's 黃帝內經素問集注 Huangdi Neijing Suwen Jizhu (Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic Plain Questions with commentaries) from 1670 much of the debate around the issue is compiled there. Though I doubt it is in translation anywhere.

 

Thank you for the reference. It may have been translated into my native tongue, which has many non-overlapping-with-English translations of taoist sources, so I'll check it out. Or I will ask my teacher.

 

As for clinical examples of where wuxing may be irrelevant, I'd really like to see one of those if you have the time to present one at some point. I'm sure that many can be practically addressed like that (I do it all the time with some my own practices when I'm in a hurry), but I'd really like to try analyzing it to see what (if any) additional benefits may still be derived from the wuxing perspective. Perchance you might be curious too, no?

 

Also, the "rumor" that TCM is not practiced quite the traditional way by most these days is not something I picked up from Western sources. It is the opinion of a taoist TCM traditionalist in China with whom I was lucky to have some fruitful interactions. He had it taught to him both ways -- the traditional (one on one with teachers, two TCM, one taoist, with MA on the side) and then the modern way (fulfilling the requirements of a standard curriculum) and in his opinion they are far from the same. Besides, I've met many TCM practitioners here in the US who were MDs in China and, just because they couldn't or wouldn't make it as MDs here, practice TCM exclusively now -- in the shape and form they learned it in med school -- i.e. on the side. No?.. Oh, and I don't blame the Communists, I blame Rockefeller, who invested countless millions (at the time, equivalent to what would perhaps be billions today) into breaking it in the early 20th century. But that of course is a totally separate discussion.