End Game

[Marblehead]

Ignore me completely if it makes the thing go!

Too late for that. Hehehe.

 

But I will still suggest that to say the game is over is not a truth unless we want it to be and this want is subjective.

[Marblehead]

I've had a sense of the man he doth protest too much methinks about you MH but I'm starting to think that I'm mistaken about that.

I have never thought that I was protesting anything here on the forum. Sure, I offer an alternative point of view, my understandings, my beliefs, my opinions. But those are mine - I really don't expect anyone to accept them without question. But then, don't expect me to accept what others say without question either.

[gatito]

Id like to see your discussion continue

but

1)

there is someting which doesnt change

The rules that the universe operates by never change

the rules are inherent in the nature of space itself

 

2)

Time is not actually linear it is progressive sequential and based on perspective

if it exists ,as described generally.

 

3)

that which is 'real' subjectively such as emotions is real in that sense

that which is 'real' objectively such as material objects is real in that

sense (though they can be as temporary as mirth)

denying reality to either spectrum is inaccurate at best

and saying all is unreal is also inaccurate because the term 'all'

disallows discernment.

 

I hope that my intrusion is helpful more than distracting

 

Stosh

PS

 

Decibelle , are the lines in your post #9 related to the avatar next to them ?

the words seem to fit ( nice poem?)

 

Hey Stosh

 

I'll pick up on these points very quickly if you don't mind.

 

1. A "rule" is a concept; an object appearing in Consciousness.

2. If you nail the time belief, that really is game over! There's no such thing as time in your own experience, although, like scientific rules it's a useful concept.

3. I'm using "real" to denote that which never changes and "unreal" to denote that which always changes. If you're reading these words then they're really appearing but where are they when you're not reading them? This is more easily seen when considering a thought. Where was it before you thought it. Where does it go afterwards? (I'm giving provisional credence to the concept of time here).

[gatito]

I have never thought that I was protesting anything here on the forum. Sure, I offer an alternative point of view, my understandings, my beliefs, my opinions. But those are mine - I really don't expect anyone to accept them without question. But then, don't expect me to accept what others say without question either.

 

Aren't you protesting materialism?

 

And, materialism isn't an alternative view, it's the world's leading religion. There are very few people on the planet who do not believe in the separate, independent existence of (the 10,000 ) objects.

 

I don't share your belief in materialism myself but I had a sense that your presence on a (mainly) Taoist forum meant that perhaps you had some doubts about the western world-view yourself and that you were interested in a deeper reality.

 

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm absolutely not expecting you to accept what I'm saying without question MH. What possible purpose would that serve?

[deci belle]

[gatito]

Sure, I love to speak of my personal experiences. I also love to speak of my beliefs, my understandings, and my opinions.

 

Science is not a religion for me. But it does help me understand the objective reality that my senses send to my brain.

 

So where do we go? What is consciousness? What is reality? Objective/subjectivity? Or perhaps beginnings and ends?

 

Sotrry MH - I didn't see this one earlier.

 

What indeed is reality? That's the $64000 question which you can only answer for yourself.

 

You believe that the sensory impressions that arise in your awareness denote a separate independently existing reality,

 

Let's take hearing as an example and conduct an experiment: -

 

Where is a sound if you are not aware of it? Is there actually a sound without awareness of the sound. Listen to the sound of a bell. It probably appears to be outside of you but is it really outside and separate - in your actual experience?

[Marblehead]

Aren't you protesting materialism?

Nope. I am speaking regarding it as to its usefulness for me in living my life. Those aspects of it that are not useful to me are ignored. This includes much of what today's theorists talk about. Example; I will never live in the quantum world, quantum physics does nothing for me in understanding life.

 

Now, to talk about personal experiences, I can speak to only mine. I can speak 'with' other people about their experiences but if I have not had a similar experience then I wouldn't have much to say. But I might ask the person how they interpreted the experience.

 

No, I really don't protest much. At least I think I am pretty accepting. But I do use my logical mind when considering what someone has said. And I'm not afraid to ask questions.

[Marblehead]

 

I only mean to attack those views you entertain that only seem to give you something secure to do on this board, and only because these ultimately do not serve you, nor anyone else, in terms of your experience of wu-wei, very well.

 

Ma cher, as I see it, you are functioning below your potential.❤

We can discuss each of the point you presented, one at a time, if you wish. I shall not labor on them all in one post.

 

I am very secure. I do not need any gods, immortals, fantasies. I live a very spontaneous life and have no one to tell me what to think or what to do. I am free to think as I wish and live as I wish as long as it does not interfer with onyone else's life.

 

That is wu wei. To think the unimaginable is not wu wei.

 

On this board I am sharing my experiences and understandings. Nothing more nor nothing less than anyone else is doing. Just because some do not agree with me does not negate my right to speak to my beliefs.

 

My beliefs serve me very well. And there have been a few on this board who agree with me and there have been a few who have thanked me for explaining something the way I explained it. Please don't say that I do not serve myself and others well because that would be a lie.

 

So, if you wish to speak to any particular shortcoming I have based on your observation I am ready to do so. But let's speak to one at a time please so that what we are saying to one subject is not confused with another.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Marblehead

[gatito]

Nope. I am speaking regarding it as to its usefulness for me in living my life. Those aspects of it that are not useful to me are ignored. This includes much of what today's theorists talk about. Example; I will never live in the quantum world, quantum physics does nothing for me in understanding life.

 

Now, to talk about personal experiences, I can speak to only mine. I can speak 'with' other people about their experiences but if I have not had a similar experience then I wouldn't have much to say. But I might ask the person how they interpreted the experience.

 

No, I really don't protest much. At least I think I am pretty accepting. But I do use my logical mind when considering what someone has said. And I'm not afraid to ask questions.

 

Without questions, there are no answers.

[Marblehead]

What indeed is reality? That's the $64000 question which you can only answer for yourself.

 

Exactly!!! I have never said that anyone else's reality should be the same as mine. But then, I do not allow others to tell me that my reality must be the same as theirs. Once again I say, We each have our own truths.

 

You believe that the sensory impressions that arise in your awareness denote a separate independently existing reality,

 

Let's take hearing as an example and conduct an experiment: -

 

Where is a sound if you are not aware of it? Is there actually a sound without awareness of the sound. Listen to the sound of a bell. It probably appears to be outside of you but is it really outside and separate - in your actual experience?

Yes, I believe in the reality that my senses and my reasoning brain afford me.

 

Sound. An energy that produces waves that cause effects. A person with good hearing will hear these waves of energy and the brain will translate it into, hopefully, something that understands produced the sound.

 

Do you listen to rock'n'roll music? Have you ever turned the volume up so high that you can actually feel the music? We can feel that energy if we take the time to pay attention. A well trained person can feel these energies at a much lower volume.

 

Sound is how our senses and brain interpret the energy.

 

To your first sentence: No, I believe in cause and effect. Nothing happens or exists independently. Everything is dependent upon cause and effect. No, the sound is not within me. It was external from me and of its own existence (the energy and its cause).

[Marblehead]

Without questions, there are no answers.

Hehehe. I suggest that the answers already exist. In many cases we just haven't found a way to ask the right questions. (I'm not talking about fortune telling here.)

[gatito]

Hehehe. I suggest that the answers already exist. In many cases we just haven't found a way to ask the right questions. (I'm not talking about fortune telling here.)

 

And here we're in agreement and the (rather attractive) lady is telling me that it's long past my bedtime.

[Marblehead]

And here we're in agreement and the (rather attractive) lady is telling me that it's long past my bedtime.

Hehehe. I dropped out before you did.

 

Now it is "Good Morning!"

[gatito]

 

Hi MH

[Stosh]

Hey Stosh

 

I'll pick up on these points very quickly if you don't mind.

 

1. A "rule" is a concept; an object appearing in Consciousness.

2. If you nail the time belief, that really is game over! There's no such thing as time in your own experience, although, like scientific rules it's a useful concept.

3. I'm using "real" to denote that which never changes and "unreal" to denote that which always changes. If you're reading these words then they're really appearing but where are they when you're not reading them? This is more easily seen when considering a thought. Where was it before you thought it. Where does it go afterwards? (I'm giving provisional credence to the concept of time here).

Just so you know,

I really just want to hear-get this lesson

I dont want to contend against it

though Im sure it may-will look like that occasionally

 

regarding the above

 

#1 no problem ,agreed

 

#2 yes useful concept, but it also somewhat dubious to call it 'real'

it could be going forward or backward intermittent or be a side effect of

spacial geometry etc without a reliable perspective -frame of reference

you cant really say its fact fact but objectively it works the same for anyone

as to 'nailing it ', I dont know your angle , so I cant respond

 

 

#3 is difficult , I think your angle is that my observation is required for things to

exist such as the 'sound of a tree falling' thing.

If the existance of TREE is subjective,and therefore requires my participation

then the TREE doesnt exist without my percieving-remembering

The falling tree makes waves of vibrations but they in this scenario

are considered unreal.

Where is a thought before I think it? Hmmm I have to speculate

that the thought is a potential thing that can happen ,its allowable within

the format of The eternal Tao but it isnt manifest until I do the assembly of it.

still in the scenario, the thing that I be is a manifestation and unreal

Therefore the reality of 'identity ideas

and material objects' is unreal manifestation of something real

which is the format of Tao.

 

Stosh

Edited July 26, 2012 by Stosh

[gatito]

Hi Stosh

 

I just wrote a very lengthy reply and lost my internet connection when I tried to post it.

 

Perhaps this is an omen that we shouldn't hijack deci belle's thread?

 

Could we pick up this conversation in your PPF or in my PPF instead?

[Stosh]

Hi Stosh

 

I just wrote a very lengthy reply and lost my internet connection when I tried to post it.

 

Perhaps this is an omen that we shouldn't hijack deci belle's thread?

 

Could we pick up this conversation in your PPF or in my PPF instead?

 

Good suggestion ,Ill post my last response to gatitos

ppj

Edited July 26, 2012 by Stosh

[deci belle]

[gatito]

Thanks deci belle. (Great handle )

 

Sitting on rocks comfortable patches of dry grass watching clouds go by is one of my favourite occupations too. Enjoy.

[deci belle]

[gatito]

{Finds comfortable patch of dry grass. Sits down. Waits for MH to put on his dancing shoes. }

[Marblehead]

[gatito]

No, I can't dance since the time when my hip was broke. Don't even claim to be a lover any more.

 

A challenge?

 

Words don't really matter all that much in my private life. I hear people talking but what is it all worth? Absolutely nothing as long as they do not put their words into action.

 

Forget all the words and just live, just be.

 

But here on this forum there must be words if we are going to relate with others.

 

And BTW, I am the center, the pivot, of my universe.

 

So where do we go from here? That is, with words and conversations. I, personally, have no place to go. I suppose I am where I am supposed to be.

 

 

I'm glad that I put my money on you.

[deci belle]

This song is about the strategy winding down the remains of lifetimes; waiting out the momentum of residual karmic traces.

 

Eventually, the vestiges of psychological kinesis run out and the finite path leading to the timeless aperture opens whereby the limit of the limitless is penetrated.

 

Here is where the auspicious object hovers in space; liquid pearl flowing, subsuming as the image appears, approaching out of the depths.

 

This is chaos, this is the cauldron; the elixir is ripe, the medicines complete.

 

Though it is still not the time of stepping over eternity; the dharma wheel has been turned.

 

The vision of changeless changing has no equal.

 

Now if you are satisfied with yourself as you are right now and are ready to die on the spot, fine.

 

Are you finished with your life or are you just running on habit energy?

 

Don't talk to me about trite philosophical drivel when you know what my subject matter is.

 

What are you bringing to this discussion that pertains to the subject matter? Who started this thread?

 

Your tired sophistry is off-topic.

 

If this subject matter is beyond your ken, kindly refrain from piping up unless you enjoy this kind of dialog.

 

It is fine for me to lay my trip on the Classics because their source equal to my experience. They say what is beyond personal experience.

 

This is because the source of the classics is impersonal.

 

If impersonal awareness is beyond your ken admit it and continue to admire it from afar through the lens of dead words.

 

There are those here who can use the perspective of mystical experience; and this is for them— not for you during your current lifetime, private or no.

[Marblehead]

Well, I guess I will stop posting to this thread.

 

You challenged me and I responded in the best way I know how in order to express myself properly.

 

I cannot speak to the things you are speaking to because they are not a part of my belief system.

 

NO, I am not sitting here waiting to die. I have a life beyond the internet. I take very good care of my gardens and fish ponds. I will never be ready to die. But I'm not afraid of death. That will be my last act on this planet.

 

I tried to have a conversation with you but apparently you want me to say what you want me to say without allowing me any individual thoughts.

 

I apologize for posting to this thread in the first place.

 

Have a great day.