Christianity, Buddhsim, Religious Taoism

[Vmarco]

Beyond conditions is a condition as well.

 

 

That's insane! How are there conditions beyond conditions? If there were, they wouldn't be beyond conditions.

 

For some reason, you're stuck on a notion that there is no Uncondition,...and from that stuckness, you will never experience the Unconditional.

 

It's like Jim Walker said, Aristotle believed in a prime mover, a god that moves the sun and moon and objects through space, and that with such a belief, one cannot possibly understand the laws of gravitation or inertia. Isaac Newton saw through that and developed a workable gravitational theory; however, his belief in absolute time prevented him from formulating a theory of relativity. Einstein, however, saw through that and thought in terms of relative time. Therefore, he formulated his famous theory of general relativity, yet his own beliefs could not accept pure randomness in subatomic physics and thus barred him from understanding the consequences of quantum mechanics.

 

On on another hand,...it is surely fruitless to "believe" in any Unconditionality,...even though there is an Unconditional,...a belief in the Unconditional is a barrier that WILL prevent that Unconditional from ever being experienced.

 

Thus many have alot lot of problems with this subject,...but there is no problem.

 

V

[Vmarco]

The Tathagata would bash you on the head for giving him credit for such silly ideas as "you must understand WHEN you are." What does that even mean? Time is an illusion. There is only this moment which is ever-changing.

 

Silly boy,...the Present hasn't changed, even slightly, in all of your imagined time.

 

V

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Although you shorten the context of my quote,...my intent was to bridge the disfunctions of hope and fear into a clearer understanding of the polarity between humility and pride.

 

People bound up in a divided reality often promote attributes such as humility. But what is humility? Is not Christian humility merely a mask to win over converts to their delusion? Do Christians really respect others while being firm in the belief that only their baptized brethren will be saved? I agree with Wei Wu Wei, who suggested, “There is no humility, only degrees of pride.” That's the relevant quote I have,...which begs an inquiry of the dualistic nature of humility and pride.

 

 

You said that

 

"Every enlightened person that I'm aware of,....Shakyamuni, Saraha, Tilopa, Nagarjuna, Vajrayogini, etc., understood that to dissolve pride one must simultaneously dissolve humility"

 

I asked for a specifically relevant quote that proved this. Wei Wu Wei is a modern writer with his own theory that there are only degrees of pride, and really he might not even mean this literally without further context.

 

Everything else you said is irrelevant to showing a specifically relevant quote to prove that "Shakyamuni, Saraha, Tilopa, Nagarjuna, Vajrayogini, etc., understood that to dissolve pride one must simultaneously dissolve humility"

 

This type of response is why I stopped entering into debate with you.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Vmarco]

You said that

 

"Every enlightened person that I'm aware of,....Shakyamuni, Saraha, Tilopa, Nagarjuna, Vajrayogini, etc., understood that to dissolve pride one must simultaneously dissolve humility"

 

I asked for a specifically relevant quote that proved this. Wei Wu Wei is a modern writer with his own theory that there are only degrees of pride, and really he might not even mean this literally without further context.

 

Everything else you said is irrelevant to showing a specifically relevant quote to prove that "Shakyamuni, Saraha, Tilopa, Nagarjuna, Vajrayogini, etc., understood that to dissolve pride one must simultaneously dissolve humility"

 

This type of response is why I stopped entering into debate with you.

 

As I said, Although you shorten the context of my quote, "Every enlightened person that I'm aware of,....Shakyamuni, Saraha, Tilopa, Nagarjuna, Vajrayogini, etc., understood that to dissolve pride one must simultaneously dissolve humility,....to dissolve fear, one must simultaneously dissolve hope."

 

Of course, if want a quote from a sutra that says, "Harmonious Emptiness, who posts in the Tao Bum form, in the summer of the Christian year 2011, should understand that pride is the polar opposite of humility"....no,...I haven't seen it.

 

One does not necessarily prove how an Enlightened Being would have "understood" something, soley through a quote,....but understanding their overall sharings, one can come to a reasonable conclusion as to how they would have "understood" by way of consistencies throught their sharings. HUMILITY ARISES FROM THE SKANDHAS! All Skandhas are instructed to be at least tamed,...to dissolve or tame anything, is dependent on its relationship with its opposite. Any two opposites added together equals their dissolution. One cannot keep or holdon to a so-called positive, without also keeping or holding on to its negative.

 

Although I did attempt to share how the Humility/Pride polar skandha would apply, I see you need an exact, scholar authenticated quote,...even though Asian scholars would be inclined to share my view without hesitation. Nevertheless,...your "out" is perfectly acceptable,...no problem.

 

You purposefully combed through all I posted on this thread, looking for one thing, that if you worded to your satifaction, may not be available, and thus debunk all my posts,...posts #6 #7 #9 etc. You should be a lawyer.

 

Bye

 

V

[C T]

As I said, Although you shorten the context of my quote, "Every enlightened person that I'm aware of,....Shakyamuni, Saraha, Tilopa, Nagarjuna, Vajrayogini, etc., understood that to dissolve pride one must simultaneously dissolve humility,....to dissolve fear, one must simultaneously dissolve hope."

 

Of course, if want a quote from a sutra that says, "Harmonious Emptiness, who posts in the Tao Bum form, in the summer of the Christian year 2011, should understand that pride is the polar opposite of humility"....no,...I haven't seen it.

 

One does not necessarily prove how an Enlightened Being would have "understood" something, soley through a quote,....but understanding their overall sharings, one can come to a reasonable conclusion as to how they would have "understood" by way of consistencies throught their sharings. HUMILITY ARISES FROM THE SKANDHAS! All Skandhas are instructed to be at least tamed,...to dissolve or tame anything, is dependent on its relationship with its opposite. Any two opposites added together equals their dissolution. One cannot keep or holdon to a so-called positive, without also keeping or holding on to its negative.

 

Although I did attempt to share how the Humility/Pride polar skandha would apply, I see you need an exact, scholar authenticated quote,...even though Asian scholars would be inclined to share my view without hesitation. Nevertheless,...your "out" is perfectly acceptable,...no problem.

 

You purposefully combed through all I posted on this thread, looking for one thing, that if you worded to your satifaction, may not be available, and thus debunk all my posts,...posts #6 #7 #9 etc. You should be a lawyer.

 

Bye

 

V

How you even associate the term 'Buddhist' (calling it the free-thought kind) to your view is beyond comprehension, Vmarco.

 

Just re-read how you respond to others (as exemplified above) and you will understand why i choose not to engage you in any exchange of views.

 

I sussed you out, like i said, almost instantly, from your third post in this forum. You just come here to show off your high level of whatever it is you think you possess, and any poster who does not show accord to your views gets treated with sarcasm and often gets talked down to, often disrespectfully. Do you realize this? Of course not. How could you? Despite repeated attempts to bring some sort of attention to your manners and etiquette, from subtle hinting to plain and direct, shoulder-shaking wake-up calls, you are still adamant that those who call you out are grouping up, as though on some sort of a warpath to diminish you as a person - do you not see how ridiculous this sounds? Do you really believe this to be true, that we are so idle that we have nothing better to do with our time?

 

Again, i presume you will have a nice retort and quote handy to explain away this observation, so please, whenever you are ready...

 

Btw, I am Asian, born into Buddhist tradition, and i fully hesitate to even slightly agree with almost every single point you propose here and elsewhere in other threads. And please do not ask me to identify which specific points i am referring to - suffice to say there are too many conflicting ones to even begin an analysis. One could almost choke on some of the more outlandish proposals you have devised and tried to sell off as unadulterated, authenticated Buddhist teachings that somehow only you are privy to, which is preposterous, to say the least.

 

To be fair, there are a couple of very applicable and helpful points you have raised, often in response to another post, but what follows these points is that you then proceed to diminish the poster as though he or she is either infantile or imbecilic. Such a behavior is, to tell you honestly, quite strange, and this will take some getting use to, and then a bit more, assuming you will be here to stay a while?

[Vajrahridaya]

That's insane! How are there conditions beyond conditions? If there were, they wouldn't be beyond conditions.

 

For some reason, you're stuck on a notion that there is no Uncondition,...and from that stuckness, you will never experience the Unconditional.

 

The unconditional that the Buddha talks about is just seeing through conditions, seeing their emptiness. There is not an absolute self standing unconditional.

 

You need to study more Nagarjuna. It'll make experiential sense once you transcend your formless ideation.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

The unconditional that the Buddha talks about is just seeing through conditions, seeing their emptiness. There is not an absolute self standing unconditional.

 

You need to study more Nagarjuna. It'll make experiential sense once you transcend your formless ideation.

 

Let's suppose that the unconditional which Buddha speaks of is limited to seeing through conditions,...is that not still unconditional?

 

From what I've seen however, most of sharings reported to have been given by Shakyamuni, were for very ignorant people,...much more ignorant than those today,...and look how ignorant people today are. Did not Buddha say, that he discovered something profound and luminous beyond all concepts. He tried to communicate that something but few understood.

 

The point is, you seem to be limiting yourself. I'm not suggesting seeking the Unconditional,...although I do suggest to seek and find all the barriers you have built against it. See the difference?

 

From what I understand, Buddha implied that an attachment to anything, even the univere at large, is an ego delusion. See what I mean? Gnowing the emptiness of form is great (and notice I did not say knowing),...but even that, in the Short Path, should not be sought. One can't find joy by seeking for joy.

 

My suggestion,...if you're in the mood for alittle study; study the 'What is Light' thread. Don't close down before the whole picture is played, which hasn't occurred yet. Imagine going to a great film,...Resurrection, Ellen Burstyn; The Man Who Could Work Miracles, Roland Young; Contact, Jodie Foster,...do you get up and leave before you figure out the ending? Light will shift your perspective on everything. Divided light is the origination of the skandhas.

 

'All matter is just a mass of stable light.' Sri Aurobindo

 

V

[doc benway]

If one would break that down however,...an embarking on a "genuine and sincere journey of self-discovery."

 

Considering that, I disagree that all paths lead to the same place. The intention of "genuine and sincere journey of self-discovery" would quickly unfold a sense of honesty, and honesty would quickly reject all Long Paths due to their inherent dishonesty.

 

As Eckhart Tolle said "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

Any "genuine and sincere journey of self-discovery" would abandon every falsity as a distraction of the "genuine and sincere journey of self-discovery."

 

Exactly - there is falsehood in all of us so there is falsehood in all our myths and stories.

Nevertheless, there is truth in us and each of those traditions tries to point to that truth in its own idiosyncratic language that arises from our cultural and sociological paradigms.

Like Tolle implies, with the proper intention will will recognize and let go of the falsehood and approach truth.

But there is no path to truth, all paths are transient and must be abandoned before we can approach truth.

[Vajrahridaya]

The point is, you seem to be limiting yourself. I'm not suggesting seeking the Unconditional,...although I do suggest to seek and find all the barriers you have built against it. See the difference?

 

You keep quoting eternalists in reference to Buddhist realization.

 

There are no obstacles, they are all empty, Samsara is Nirvana.

[Sunya]

Silly boy,...the Present hasn't changed, even slightly, in all of your imagined time.

 

V

 

Haha, alright then. Stop drinking and eating then. It's all just illusion.

[Vmarco]

Exactly - there is falsehood in all of us so there is falsehood in all our myths and stories.

Nevertheless, there is truth in us and each of those traditions tries to point to that truth in its own idiosyncratic language that arises from our cultural and sociological paradigms.

Like Tolle implies, with the proper intention will will recognize and let go of the falsehood and approach truth.

But there is no path to truth, all paths are transient and must be abandoned before we can approach truth.

 

I would agree that, traditionally speaking, paths seek to get, not to let go,...and yet, while flowing without hesitation in an intentional, attentional way, allowing the false to be recognized as the false, is itself a path. Perhaps that's why I resonate easily with the differentiation between Long Path and Short Path (somewhat as Paul Brunton documented regarding the Kagyu way).

 

The honesty necessary to recognize the false as the false demands a path,...otherwise, sentient beings continue believing that their senses, humanism, and skandhas is actual reality. The senses, our human-ness, and the skandhas are themselves false, and from my observations, only interested in preserving their delusion. How can the false recognize the false as the false?

 

So,...how does humanity as a whole, society-at-large, shift to the honesty necessary to instill "proper intention" and attention,...without a path,...especially when honesty is so alien to the senses, humanism, and skandhas?

 

After all,...we are where out attention is, and where our attention is, we are.

 

V

[Vmarco]

You keep quoting eternalists in reference to Buddhist realization.

 

There are no obstacles, they are all empty, Samsara is Nirvana.

 

No,...you keeping saying that I'm quoting eternalists in reference to Buddhist realization.

 

So I'll critique line 2:

 

Yes, there are no obstacles,...all imagine obstacles are empty, and form.

 

Samsara is Nirvana,...and Nirvana (fully awake to the true nature of reality) is Samsara (the continuous, cyclical flow of yang/yin),...just as One is Many, and Many is One.

 

From that perspective it seems silly of me to discuss what is beyond that,...from what does Samsara and Nirvana arise. Just as most people have no interest in truth,...truth and reality have little value in everyday life. The majority merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible.

 

It is like light. For most they're satisfied with a primitive, sentient notion of light and dark,...for the sciential minded, they cling to the empirical evidence of the Relativity of light. Those are like Samsara and Nirvana. However, where does the sensual notion of light and dark, or the sciential understanding of the electrodynamic field come from?

 

Where is comes from could be said to be unimportant. However, to deny how it arises is ignorance.

 

Again,...from light's point of view, that is, from how the sentient notion of light and darl arises, and from how the electrodynamic manifests, Light travels no distance in no time, and has no need for speed.

 

Undivided light is the fulcrum of Samsara and Nirvana. Your denial of that fact does not make Undivided Light non-existent,...but your denial does make it unlikely that you will uncover nirvana,...because nirvana is being fully awake to the true nature of reality,...thus, the reality of Undivided Light, which you deny.

 

V

[Sunya]

thus, the reality of Undivided Light, which you deny.

 

Nobody is denying the experience of formless light, you are not the only person to have had this experience, but what people deny is the absolute existence of this experience. You had this experience and have turned it into a reality, the true reality, the Unconditional, the Absolute. There is no 'true' reality or Absolute, and what you experience was just as phenomenal as this very experience of you reading these words. Both are just experiences. You've just gotten very attached to a particular one.

[doc benway]

I would agree that, traditionally speaking, paths seek to get, not to let go,...and yet, while flowing without hesitation in an intentional, attentional way, allowing the false to be recognized as the false, is itself a path. Perhaps that's why I resonate easily with the differentiation between Long Path and Short Path (somewhat as Paul Brunton documented regarding the Kagyu way).

 

The honesty necessary to recognize the false as the false demands a path,...otherwise, sentient beings continue believing that their senses, humanism, and skandhas is actual reality. The senses, our human-ness, and the skandhas are themselves false, and from my observations, only interested in preserving their delusion. How can the false recognize the false as the false?

 

So,...how does humanity as a whole, society-at-large, shift to the honesty necessary to instill "proper intention" and attention,...without a path,...especially when honesty is so alien to the senses, humanism, and skandhas?

 

After all,...we are where out attention is, and where our attention is, we are.

 

V

It is the uninitiated and inexperienced who seek to get. And the institution of religion knows this and uses it in the beginning. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, it is the beginning of exploitation and control. As the true seekers gain wisdom, they recognize the need to let go.

Patanjali tries to shortcut this as did Buddha and Lao Zi and others. This is why their methods show less clinging and exploitation.

 

No path is demanded or even possible in a total sense.

 

How does the false recognize the false?. Because it's not false, it's just limited.

Mind and thought are always limited. Mind is the sum total of it's contents (I'm not referring to heart-mind, just human mind).

So can the mind go beyond it's contents, to quote Krishnamurti?

He never answered this question because he refused to be your guru.

He recognized that he can't possibly be your guru, a guru can't help you beyond putting your feet on a path that eventually must be abandoned.

You need to investigate this question inside and outside of yourself with all of your resources and then you will know,..... or not.

There is no defined path in this though you may use any or bits of many at different points along the way.

 

How then to adopt this on a social, whole of humanity scale?

Another thing Krishnamurti focused on.

Only one way - you do the work personally and reflect that in your life and relationships and others may choose to do the same.

Absolutely no way to make this happen outside of yourself. Try if you choose, but you're much more likely to be successful if you start inside.

[Aaron]

Nobody is denying the experience of formless light, you are not the only person to have had this experience, but what people deny is the absolute existence of this experience. You had this experience and have turned it into a reality, the true reality, the Unconditional, the Absolute. There is no 'true' reality or Absolute, and what you experience was just as phenomenal as this very experience of you reading these words. Both are just experiences. You've just gotten very attached to a particular one.

 

Hello Sunya,

 

As a man who has experienced the "unchanging light" I have always said that it cannot be absolute, nor should one say that it is true, rather they can declare they have experienced it, knowing that the only way one can understand its existence is to experience it themselves. It seems selfish to expect people to believe something as fact, simply because you've experienced it.

 

I agree also that there is no "true" reality and that any allusion to such is a misunderstanding of the nature of reality. In other words if there is a "true" reality, then there must be a "false" reality, but then how does one define a reality as false? Who makes that decision and what criteria is it based on? Is the decision objective or subjective, based on hard provable facts or anecdotal evidence?

 

In my mind there is just simpy reality. It is neither true or false, it simply is. The problem is that isn't enough for some people, so they need to look for more, believing that there is a way for mere men to transcend to Godhood, when that doesn't happen. The mortal man remains mortal.

 

My final point is that I've known many people who've experienced the "light" and one unifying characteristic is that they seem to have a deeper empathy for others. This stems from the inevitable detachment that is associated with the experience, the ability to see through to the root of an action. So they act, not of need or duty, but rather out of a sincere impulse (or desire) to ease another's suffering. Those who have had this experience can understand what I'm talking about, those who haven't, but claim to, rely on intellectual definitions of compassion. The liberation of all souls is done by the ruthless expression of truth, rather than by living as an example for others (the eightfold path). They take the short path, believing that the quick attainment of experience is enough, not realizing that the experience, without preparation is worthless. It's like a doctor who knows how to identify an illness, but not how to treat it. Anyways, I don't want to blather on, just making the point that I think you've hit it on the nail.

 

I hope life is treating you well,

 

Aaron

[Sunya]

Aaron, I completely agree. Beautiful post

[Vajrahridaya]

Undivided light is the fulcrum of Samsara and Nirvana. Your denial of that fact does not make Undivided Light non-existent,...but your denial does make it unlikely that you will uncover nirvana,...because nirvana is being fully awake to the true nature of reality,...thus, the reality of Undivided Light, which you deny.

 

V

 

Reality is a process, all equally empty, both form realms and formless realms, this self liberates awareness in every moment leading to crystal clarity, known as Rigpa.

[Vmarco]

Reality is a process, all equally empty, both form realms and formless realms, this self liberates awareness in every moment leading to crystal clarity, known as Rigpa.

 

(This post is in response to Vajrahridaya, based on a lengthy series of posts,...opinions regarding "how" this is being discussed is your own, and not relevant to our discussion).

 

The reality of duality maybe perceived as a process, but reality, that is, the Wholeness beyond the sum of opposites, is not a process at all. Sure, both the form realms and formless realms within the 6 realms of duality are equal, the samething.

 

Rigpa is simply a box,...an optical box of convex planes,..whose reflections occur at 90 degree angles within the 6 optical planes of the 6 realmes. The reflections are recursive, ...142857142857142857142857142857142857.... it's not a big deal,... anyone with an understanding of light knows that.

 

But you have a problem with light, especially Undivided Light,...you deny it,...and thus rigpa, the mirror-like nature of duality will elude you. All I'm saying is,...what if you are misinterpeting the transmissions within your Lineage,...what if you are forming beliefs that are actually concealing what is right in front of you?

 

V

[Vajrahridaya]

 

But you have a problem with light, especially Undivided Light,...you deny it,...and thus rigpa, the mirror-like nature of duality will elude you. All I'm saying is,...what if you are misinterpeting the transmissions within your Lineage,...what if you are forming beliefs that are actually concealing what is right in front of you?

 

V

 

Yeah, what if?

 

You'll never know... but just check yourself first.

[3bob]

It is the uninitiated and inexperienced who seek to get. And the institution of religion knows this and uses it in the beginning. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, it is the beginning of exploitation and control. As the true seekers gain wisdom, they recognize the need to let go.

Patanjali tries to shortcut this as did Buddha and Lao Zi and others. This is why their methods show less clinging and exploitation.

 

No path is demanded or even possible in a total sense.

 

How does the false recognize the false?. Because it's not false, it's just limited.

Mind and thought are always limited. Mind is the sum total of it's contents (I'm not referring to heart-mind, just human mind).

So can the mind go beyond it's contents, to quote Krishnamurti?

He never answered this question because he refused to be your guru.

He recognized that he can't possibly be your guru, a guru can't help you beyond putting your feet on a path that eventually must be abandoned.

You need to investigate this question inside and outside of yourself with all of your resources and then you will know,..... or not.

There is no defined path in this though you may use any or bits of many at different points along the way.

 

How then to adopt this on a social, whole of humanity scale?

Another thing Krishnamurti focused on.

Only one way - you do the work personally and reflect that in your life and relationships and others may choose to do the same.

Absolutely no way to make this happen outside of yourself. Try if you choose, but you're much more likely to be successful if you start inside.

 

Hello Steve,

 

I see you like Mr. J.K.. I think he gave us many fine gems of wisdom. But I also see him as dropping the ball after a certain point with his anti-guru guru complex. I think such is partially revealed in the following words, "He recognized that he can't possibly be your guru", this tells me that he does not understand or know the true meaning of the word and being of (Sat) guru. For a "true guru" is not really a separate personality choosing other personalities, the true guru is the freedom of Spirit working through a human vessel, a vessel that has zero resistance to Spirits workings, thus not only is it possible for that Spirit to help human beings reslove karmas through its power but that is its natural purpose, a purpose which is and amounts to more than only pointing the way conceptually since it is the way made manifest which is Spirit unto Spirit. (although I agree that the pointing of the way and our cultivation are key for transformation, which btw. can not be forced and are never forced by any true guru) Anyway, have positions or names related to "guru" ever been misused like Mr. J.K. speaks of or alludes to (?) yes and a great many times, yet true gurus still exist.

 

Om

Edited August 11, 2011 by 3bob

[templetao]

All valid paths cultivate virtue. Without virtue this world is a very dark place.

[Vmarco]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[templetao]

ummm no virtue is a real its a something.

 

The unaware just think its philosophical just like people think yin and yang is philosophical but its real and so is te.