[TTC Study] Chapter 60 of the Tao Teh Ching

[steve]

I like Chi Dragon's translation:

 

1. Ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish.

2. With the presence of Tao beneath heaven,

3. The ghosts cannot extent their power.

4. It's not only that the ghosts cannot extent their power,

5. But its power cannot harm anyone.

6. It was not even that their power cannot harm anyone,

7. A ruler also does no harm to anyone.

8. Since both do no mutual harm to each other,

9. Then, the virtue of peace was returned to the people.

 

Some thoughts -

 

When you cook a small fish you basically don't mess with it. You don't scale it, clean it, filet it, or alter it in any way.

You fry it, pop it in your mouth and eat it whole - done.

So ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish means don't mess with it too much.

Don't get into the insides and fool around. This theme pervades the DDJ.

Approach it as one organic whole, don't try to impose your ideas on it, just eat the whole thing and it's perfect.

 

The ghosts I think refer to the various ills we can encounter, it doesn't need to have a supernatural connotation although I'm sure it did when it was written. So the ruler doesn't interfere, and through his non-interference he doesn't facilitate or enable the problems that inevitably result from leaders trying to "make a difference." And when the ruler is benevolent, the people respect and appreciate the non-intervention. So everyone is happy.

[Marblehead]

Some thoughts -

 

When you cook a small fish you basically don't mess with it. You don't scale it, clean it, filet it, or alter it in any way.

You fry it, pop it in your mouth and eat it whole - done.

So ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish means don't mess with it too much.

Don't get into the insides and fool around. This theme pervades the DDJ.

Approach it as one organic whole, don't try to impose your ideas on it, just eat the whole thing and it's perfect.

 

The ghosts I think refer to the various ills we can encounter, it doesn't need to have a supernatural connotation although I'm sure it did when it was written. So the ruler doesn't interfere, and through his non-interference he doesn't facilitate or enable the problems that inevitably result from leaders trying to "make a difference." And when the ruler is benevolent, the people respect and appreciate the non-intervention. So everyone is happy.

 

Okay. I'll buy that.

 

(But don't ask too high a price, okay?)

[on the path]

That looks like a pretty short sword he has there. Hehehe. (Surely just the shadows in the picture.)

 

Yes, I am aware of all that.

 

I try really hard to not say anything negative about that stuff but I don't hesitate to state that it is not a part of my belief system and I oftentimes state why.

 

Yes, I know that many folks tried to immortalize Lao Tzu. I think some have. I have no problem with that as it is their personal belief.

 

Shortly after I joined this board I did mention that after feeling comfortable with the TTC and Chuang Tzu I thought I would look into Religious Taoism but found that it didn't fit into my life, my inner essence, and therefore abandonded it.

 

The only problem I would have with a Religious Taoist would be if they distorted the teachings of Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu and to this point I have not seen this violation.

 

But I still don't believe in ghosts. Hehehe.

 

Back to Lao Tzu's chapter 60

 

In the DDJ, I think it has many themes running through it, which to my way of thinking one is the 'spirit'. It deals with vital energy and the energy of life ect. In this chapter of Flowing Hands, the shaman is directly talked about because a shaman is dealing with the energy of life present and life gone. This makes the whole. Without the whole how can we have balance? Yin and yang make the balance, the spirit of the dead are life's balance. Immortals are enlightened beings that make the balance of unenlightened beings. I once joined a Taoist society run by Taoist priests. It was terrible!!!! I couldn't wait for my membership to elapse. I then learn't that Taoist religion was completely different from the shamanistic teachings that I had received from my teacher. They are completely different things, the shamanistic teachings I received were based on Lao Tzu philosophy and every day life with no set rules at all. Taoist religion is based on the Taoist cannon (which I don't care for at all!!) and many rules and regulations that are beyond belief! I wouldn't be surprised if anyone was put off by the religious side.

[ChiDragon]

Some thoughts -

 

When you cook a small fish you basically don't mess with it. You don't scale it, clean it, filet it, or alter it in any way.

You fry it, pop it in your mouth and eat it whole - done.

So ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish means don't mess with it too much.

Don't get into the insides and fool around. This theme pervades the DDJ.

Approach it as one organic whole, don't try to impose your ideas on it, just eat the whole thing and it's perfect.

 

Hehehe... You are cute...!!!

 

Steve, I think you have the right idea about the small fish. However, in accordance with my source, we should handle the small fish as little as possible. Like scale it or clean it are OK to do. The critical part was when you cook it require a little special precaution. It was better try not to flip it too much which might break the small thing apart. Thus the theme here was to handle a small country with less interference as possible.

 

Some thoughts -

 

The ghosts I think refer to the various ills we can encounter, it doesn't need to have a supernatural connotation although I'm sure it did when it was written. So the ruler doesn't interfere, and through his non-interference he doesn't facilitate or enable the problems that inevitably result from leaders trying to "make a difference." And when the ruler is benevolent, the people respect and appreciate the non-intervention. So everyone is happy.

 

I know why Marblehead did not buy the ghost story. Perhaps, I might be a better salesman on this one. LaoTze says: I don't believe in ghosts. Even though if they were existed and since Tao is here, they have loss their power. Hence, there were no ghosts ever existed....

Edited August 22, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

I know why Marblehead did not buy the ghost story. Perhaps, I might be a better salesman on this one. LaoTze says: I don't believe in ghosts. Even though if they were existed and since Tao is here, they have loss their power. Hence, there were no ghosts ever existed....

 

Okay. You and Steve both touched on this.

 

Metaphorically, the ghosts of our and others past deeds still haunt us. However, if we right the wrongs of the past these ghosts will no longer harm us.

 

So using the word objectively I disagree with but using it metaphorically is acceptable.

[Taoist Texts]

60

道德經:

治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 Dao De Jing:

(Occupying the throne)
Governing a great state is like cooking small fish.
Let the kingdom be governed according to the Dao, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy. It is not that those manes have not that spiritual energy, but it will not be employed to hurt men. It is not that it could not hurt men, but neither does the ruling sage hurt them.
When these two do not injuriously affect each other, their good influences converge in the virtue (of the Dao).

 

道德經60

《道德經》: 治大國若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神，其神不傷人；非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷人。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 《老子河上公章句·居位》: 治大國者若烹小鮮。以道蒞天下，其鬼不神。非其鬼不神，其神不傷人。非其神不傷人，聖人亦不傷。夫兩不相傷，故德交歸焉。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □□□□□□□□□□天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神也，其神不傷人也；非其申不傷人也，聖人亦弗傷□。□□不相□，□德交歸焉。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 治大國若亨小鮮。以道立天下，其鬼不神；非其鬼不神也，其神不傷人也；非其神不傷人也，□□□弗傷也。夫兩□相傷，故德交歸焉。 Edited November 23, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Yep. A little carry-over of the older Shamanistic traditions in that chapter. That always rubbed me wrong but I have learned to not take it too seriously anymore.

[Taoist Texts]

Yep. A little carry-over of the older Shamanistic traditions in that chapter. That always rubbed me wrong but I have learned to not take it too seriously anymore.

 

this is taken with beer

 

[dust]

Very simply: with regard to that other thread, my response is that this chapter isn't in any way suggesting that people worship spirits.

 

It talks of them, and I'm not sure I understand it, but my feeling is that he's suggesting that perhaps either the sage can use belief in spirits to control people (and rule easier), or that belief in spirits is harmful and nobody should bother with them.

 

Less simply:

 

Firstly, Legge's translation. I've realized why his stuff, as far as I'm concerned, so often missed the mark: he seems to have attempted to translate every work of early Chinese philosophy. He was in a bit of a rush..

In terms of words: why "manes" of the departed? Why "manifest their spiritual energy"? This kind of unnecessary language...meh.

But equally, why "power"? 神 doesn't mean "power", as so many others have translated it. Does it?

 

神 could mean: creator, God, god, spirit, mysterious, wonderful, clever, infinite

it originally is made up of

示 sacrifice/worship/ritual/altar and 申 lightning

 

鬼 could mean: demon, ghost, spirit of the dead, dark, unclear, cunning, dirty trick

it originally is made up of

示 sacrifice/worship/ritual/altar and 田 (mask, not field) and 人 person

(it depicted a shaman putting on a mask and acting like a demon/ghost)

 

I would transliterate as:

 

治大國若亨小鮮 govern great nation like cook/contribute small fish

以道蒞天下 by Dao reach everything

其鬼不神 the cunning/ghost not mysterious/god

非其鬼不神也 false the cunning/ghost not mysterious/god

其神不傷人也 but the mystery/god not harm people

非其神不傷人也 false the mystery/god not harm people

聖人亦弗傷也 the sage also not have harm

夫兩不相傷 the two not hurt each other

故德交歸焉 then De not return?

 

 

Secondly, then, in terms of interpretation:

 

治大國若享小鮮 Governing a great nation is like cooking small fish; (be greater than the nation)
以道蒞天下 Reach everything through the Way, (if you govern by Dao)

其鬼不神 And cunning shamans/demons lose their mystery/godlike image;

非其鬼不神也 If cunning shamans/demons don't lose their mystery/godlike image, (well, they might try to be mysterious)

其神不傷人也 The mystery will still not harm people;
非其神不傷人也 If the mystery still harms people, (some people might still be scared)
聖人亦弗傷也 The sage comes to/does no harm anyway.
夫兩不相傷 If the two do no harm to each other, (the cook and the fish / the sage and the nation)
故德交歸焉 Will De not return?

[Taoist Texts]

Hey Dusty

 

do you belive in ghosts?

 

[Marblehead]

this is taken with beer

If that plate got close to me it would be empty in no time. No beer though, thanks. Wine? Sure.

 

I keep a supply of smoked Milkfish in my freezer. Never know when I might get in the mood for some of that stuff.

[Marblehead]

Secondly, then, in terms of interpretation:

 

治大國若享小鮮 Governing a great nation is like cooking small fish; (be greater than the nation)

以道蒞天下 Reach everything through the Way, (if you govern by Dao)

其鬼不神 And cunning shamans/demons lose their mystery/godlike image;

非其鬼不神也 If cunning shamans/demons don't lose their mystery/godlike image, (well, they might try to be mysterious)

其神不傷人也 The mystery will still not harm people;

非其神不傷人也 If the mystery still harms people, (some people might still be scared)

聖人亦弗傷也 The sage comes to/does no harm anyway.

夫兩不相傷 If the two do no harm to each other, (the cook and the fish / the sage and the nation)

故德交歸焉 Will De not return?

Yes, that says more to me than many other translations. Thanks.

[Taoist Texts]

If that plate got close to me it would be empty in no time. No beer though, thanks. Wine? Sure.

ooh a gentleman of distinction.

 

So MH have you ever see a ghost? Or a UFO? Or anything weird that cant be explained?

[dust]

Hey Dusty

 

do you belive in ghosts?

 

Nope, though I know a few people who do...

I'd position myself agnosticly as I do with God/gods.

 

Why do you ask?

 

Do you?

[Marblehead]

So MH have you ever see a ghost? Or a UFO? Or anything weird that cant be explained?

Nope. Well, except for the created ones on TV.

 

I don't deny the possibility of life on other planets throughout the universe but considering what is required to travel from one solar system to another or from one galaxy to another I discount the possibility that any other intelligent life forms have ever visited Earth.

 

Things that can't be explained? Oh, for sure!!! But I write them off as my not having enough information to know the what and why.

[dust]

Yes, that says more to me than many other translations. Thanks.

 

I'm glad

[Taoist Texts]

Nope, though I know a few people who do...

I'd position myself agnosticly as I do with God/gods.

 

Why do you ask?

 

Given that this chapter is about ghosts I thought I would better understand yours and MH's POV knowing if you ppl treat the subject as fact or fiction. Also I am a mystically inclined dreamer who loves a weird story.

 

Do you?

Yes, I had experinces with ghosts and saw a spectacular UFO once.

[Taoist Texts]

治大國若亨小鮮。Governing a great nation depends on sacrificing 亨 small (family-level) ancestral sacrifices 鮮.

以道蒞天下，In order to make the Under Heaven orderly

其鬼不神；family-level ancestral ghosts should not be (sacrificed to) as nation-level gods

非其鬼不神，and non-family 非其鬼 ghosts should not be (sacrificed to) as nation-level gods.

Thus

其神不傷人；domestic gods would not harm people

非其神不傷人，and foreign gods would not harm people

聖人亦不傷人。the sages also would not harm people

夫兩不相傷，when these two (foreign and domestic gods) do not harm,

故德交歸焉。 (Heaven) will send down its beneficiary De.

 

Notes:

 

On struggle against proliferation of non-family and foreign ghosts:

 

子曰：「非其鬼而祭之，諂也。見義不為，無勇也。」

Wei Zheng: The Master said, "For a man to sacrifice to a spirit which does not belong to him is flattery. To see what is right and not to do it is want of courage."

 

 

公冶長:

子曰：「臧文仲居蔡，山節藻梲，何如其知也？」

Gong Ye Chang: The Master said, "Zang Wen kept (worshipped) a large tortoise in a house, on the capitals of the pillars of which he had hills made, and with representations of duckweed on the small pillars above the beams supporting the rafters. Of what sort was his wisdom?"

 

On relationship between sages ghosts and spirits:

 

禮運:

故聖人參於天地，并於鬼神，以治政也。

Li Yun:

Hence the sage forms a ternion with Heaven and Earth, and stands side by side with spiritual beings, in order to the right ordering of government.

 

禮運:

故聖人作則，必以天地為本，以陰陽為端，以四時為柄，以日星為紀，月以為量，鬼神以為徒，…。

Li Yun:

Thus it was that when the sages would make rules (for men), …to use... the spirits breathing (in nature) as associates

[Marblehead]

Begone!, Ye ghosts!!!

[dust]

Yes, I had experinces with ghosts and saw a spectacular UFO once.

 

I hadn't expected that response

 

 

 

治大國若亨小鮮。Governing a great nation depends on sacrificing 亨 small (family-level) ancestral sacrifices 鮮.

以道蒞天下，In order to make the Under Heaven orderly

其鬼不神；family-level ancestral ghosts should not be (sacrificed to) as nation-level gods

非其鬼不神，and non-family 非其鬼 ghosts should not be (sacrificed to) as nation-level gods.

Thus

其神不傷人；domestic gods would not harm people

非其神不傷人，and foreign gods would not harm people

聖人亦不傷人。the sages also would not harm people

夫兩不相傷，when these two (foreign and domestic gods) do not harm,

故德交歸焉。 (Heaven) will send down its beneficiary De.

 

Notes:

 

On struggle against proliferation of non-family and foreign ghosts:

 

子曰：「非其鬼而祭之，諂也。見義不為，無勇也。」

Wei Zheng: The Master said, "For a man to sacrifice to a spirit which does not belong to him is flattery. To see what is right and not to do it is want of courage."

 

 

Good catch.

 

Being that the 非其鬼 is exactly the same in both texts, we'd do well to translate it in the same way. The Confucius translation makes sense.

 

Could Laozi be using C's words to make a different point?

 

其鬼不神 The ghosts of one's ancestors are not gods

非其鬼不神 The ghosts of other people's ancestors are not gods

其神不傷人 One's gods do not harm people

非其神不傷人 Other people's gods do not harm people

聖人亦不傷人 The sage also does not harm people

夫兩不相傷 As long as two parties do no harm to each other

故德交歸焉 Does De not return?

[Taoist Texts]

Being that the 非其鬼 is exactly the same in both texts, we'd do well to translate it in the same way. The Confucius translation makes sense.

 

Could Laozi be using C's words to make a different point?

sur...this iteration is much closer to the original.

 

what i find fascinating is that even in

 

The Huáinánzǐ (Chinese: 淮南子; Wade–Giles: Huai-nan Tzu; literally: "The Masters/Philosophers of Huainan") is a 2nd-century BCE Chinese philosophical classic

 

this passage is glossed over, evincing poor understanding, while the famous 'small fry fish' line is completely misunderstood. It means either a radical cultural shift that broke the transmission, happening in 3rd century BC; or that Lao-zi is older by several centuries, dating not from 4th century but from much earlier.

[dust]

This being the case, who knows if the wording's even correct. The wording found in the MWD texts might be.. more accurate?

 

received

聖人亦不傷人

 

MWD

聖人亦弗傷(?)

(???) 弗傷也

 

reconstructed MWD

聖人亦弗傷也

[Taoist Texts]

Could be, but thats a small issue. Important thing is that we, after 3000 years have reconstituted the original. Now we can answer the million dollar question: religion or not?

[dust]

Have we? Are we sure?

 

(If so... I'm impressed. We've accomplished something! I can die happy)

 

 

What does it say, exactly, then?

[ChiDragon]

This being the case, who knows if the wording's even correct. The wording found in the MWD texts might be.. more accurate?

 

received

聖人亦不傷人

 

MWD

聖人亦弗傷(?)

(???) 弗傷也

 

reconstructed MWD

聖人亦弗傷也

 

We do a translation to determine which one makes more sense.

received

聖人亦不傷人

A sage, also(亦), does not harm anyone (or people).

 

reconstructed MWD

聖人亦弗傷也

Two possible translations:

1. A sage, also, does no harm though(也).

2. There was, also, no harm done to the sage though.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2014 by ChiDragon