[TTC Study] Chapter 45 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

now that we have groped the elephant from tip of its trunk to tip of its tail and feel good about it, shall we stop and move onto the next animal in the herd of 81?

Yeah, we do that now and again but generally we just keep talking until noone has anything left to say. So much can be said to nearly all the 81 chapters especially how the lessons apply to our "real" life.

[narveen]

Yeah, we do that now and again but generally we just keep talking until noone has anything left to say. So much can be said to nearly all the 81 chapters especially how the lessons apply to our "real" life.

 

i thought the rule is to stay on topic to discuss the form and structure of the "elephant" and what needs to be said on lessons learned (about the critter) for application to real life must go to other threads.

[Marblehead]

i thought the rule is to stay on topic to discuss the form and structure of the "elephant" and what needs to be said on lessons learned (about the critter) for application to real life must go to other threads.

Yes, that was the initial intent while the sutdy was going on. The study is finished - time to apply what we have learned.

 

(Can't stay in college forever, we one day must graduate and get out there in the 'real' world.)

[narveen]

Yes, that was the initial intent while the sutdy was going on. The study is finished - time to apply what we have learned.

 

(Can't stay in college forever, we one day must graduate and get out there in the 'real' world.)

 

the presumption here is that the animal that is being groped is related to the real world?

 

the first thing related to the real world, when i get up in the morning, is breakfast. and i mean poached egg on rye toast, another buttered slice slathered with honey and a mug of hot great smelling coffee. but that's me.

 

reality is many things to many people. do you presume to share the world of the guy who composed chapter 45?

[Marblehead]

the presumption here is that the animal that is being groped is related to the real world?

Absolutely and indeed!

 

the first thing related to the real world, when i get up in the morning, is breakfast. and i mean poached egg on rye toast, another buttered slice slathered with honey and a mug of hot great smelling coffee. but that's me.

Well sure, that's me too except my morning is satisfied with only coffee and my smokes. I very rarely eat breakfast.

 

reality is many things to many people. do you presume to share the world of the guy who composed chapter 45?

In a way, yes. True, he lived during a different time than I am presently living. Twenty-five hundred years difference. Things have changed dramatically between the two time periods.

 

However, basic concepts, if sound, endure the passing of time.

 

In Henricks' translation, the first eight lines are statements about the true essence and its appearance. And today this still stands true. First impressions are so often far from the truth. And, on top of that, if we are presented with the truth we generally don't want to accept it because we want our life to be so much more than what it truely is. Our expectations are far too often much greater than what reality can provide and therefore we are always disappointed with what we find at the end.

 

The next two lines; statements of fact. If you are cold you become active and you will get warm; if you are hot then stop running and sit under a shade tree.

 

Last line; I have never wished to be the ruler of the world but to be the ruler of myself? Absolutely! And it is true, if we become quiet and tranquil we will be able to think rationally and be in a much better position of getting control of our total person.

 

 

But no, I don't read Chapter 45 daily while drinking my first cup of coffee.

 

But I have read it many times by many different translators and I have attained whatever value it has "for me". It may have no value for you. That's okay. We each must walk our own path.

[narveen]

In a way, yes. True, he lived during a different time than I am presently living. Twenty-five hundred years difference. Things have changed dramatically between the two time periods.

 

However, basic concepts, if sound, endure the passing of time.

 

like what?

what are the basic concepts that shape your reality today existed two thousand years ago?

 

how about a round planet earth circling the sun?

398 years ago Galileo was jailed for life as a heretic for trying to reshape reality from that of a fixed, flat, immovable, non-rotating earth.

 

how about the concept that you are an ape and your ancestors were apes?

Darwin came up with this idea 154 years ago. Who do you think Chuang Tzu would regard as crazy? Darwin or the Pope who believed we descended from Adam and Eve?

 

do you hold any reality-shaping concepts that existed in china two thousand years ago?

 

In Henricks' translation, the first eight lines are statements about the true essence and its appearance. And today this still stands true. First impressions are so often far from the truth. And, on top of that, if we are presented with the truth we generally don't want to accept it because we want our life to be so much more than what it truely is. Our expectations are far too often much greater than what reality can provide and therefore we are always disappointed with what we find at the end.

 

The next two lines; statements of fact. If you are cold you become active and you will get warm; if you are hot then stop running and sit under a shade tree.

 

Last line; I have never wished to be the ruler of the world but to be the ruler of myself? Absolutely! And it is true, if we become quiet and tranquil we will be able to think rationally and be in a much better position of getting control of our total person.

 

let’s be clear about this. all the above lessons learned came from the study of Hendrick’s translation and not the work of the composer of chapter 45. right?

 

therefore, you are like an art student learning from an art dealer’s perception of willem de kooning’s reality that inspired his abstract expressionism of woman. i mean, those paintings of women with three breasts and five eyes?

 

But no, I don't read Chapter 45 daily while drinking my first cup of coffee.

 

But I have read it many times by many different translators and I have attained whatever value it has "for me". It may have no value for you. That's okay. We each must walk our own path.

 

of course, we must.

just watch your step.

Edited June 26, 2013 by narveen

[Marblehead]

We're not talking about Ch. 45 any more but rather the entirity of Taoist philosophy and how it applies to my living my life. But we will continue the discussion.

like what?

what are the basic concepts that shape your reality today existed two thousand years ago?

Let's look at Ch.15, Derek Lin's translation (just to show that I am limited in which translations I have read), Lines 6 - 12:

(Descriptors of a Sage.)

 

Hesitatnt, like crossing a wintry river

Cautious, like fearing four neighbors

Solemn, like a guest

Loose, like ice about to melt

Genuine, like plain wood

Open, like a valley

Opaque, like muddy water.

 

I mostly try to live my life based on these concepts. But they are natural traits now so they rarely need be forced.

 

 

how about a round planet earth circling the sun?

398 years ago Galileo was jailed for life as a heretic for trying to reshape reality from that of a fixed, flat, immovable, non-rotating earth.

Not sure about Lao Tzu but I am very sure that Chuang Tzu would have openly accepted the thought had enough supporting information been given him.

 

how about the concept that you are an ape and your ancestors were apes?

Darwin came up with this idea 154 years ago. Who do you think Chuang Tzu would regard as crazy? Darwin or the Pope who believed we descended from Adam and Eve?

You need to leave those apes alone! They can cause you harm!

 

Again, can't say about Lao Tzu but Chuang Tzu?, yeah, I think he would have been accepting. Remember, he was even a butterfly once.

do you hold any reality-shaping concepts that existed in china two thousand years ago?

That was replied to above.

let’s be clear about this. all the above lessons learned came from the study of Hendrick’s translation and not the work of the composer of chapter 45. right?

I have 27 different translations of the TTC on my computer, not just Henricks'. Yes, I prefer Henricks'. No, Ihave never spoken with Lao Tzu. Regretfully he died before I was born. So true, all I can go by are what others have said he said. Some I accept, some I do not accept. And this applies to all chapters, not just Ch 45.

therefore, you are like an art student learning from an art dealer’s perception of willem de kooning’s reality that inspired his abstract expressionism of woman. i mean, those paintings of women with three breasts and five eyes?

No, you are wrong here. Most of my life philosophy was already established before I ever read my first translation of the TTC. And this was only after I had read such people as Darwin and Nietzsche. For me the TTC filled in what was missing in my philosophy. The TTC really is not the first roots of my philosophy.

 

of course, we must.

just watch your step.

I always watch my step except when I don't and then I pay dearly for it. I'm nhot perfect, I'm not a Master, I'm not a Sage, I'm not an expert. But I have lived a long time, over 72 years, so I must be doing something right. And I have had more life experiences than the average person can even imagine. I have lived! Still am. And I try to go with the flow but if the flow is going in a different direction than I wish to go then there will be a battle.

 

I love talking about philosohpy. I like apes too. Did you know that the Chimp is 98% DNA similar to Homo Sapien? Yep. You are 98% ape.

[narveen]

We're not talking about Ch. 45 any more but rather the entirity of Taoist philosophy and how it applies to my living my life. But we will continue the discussion.

 

you mean your philosophy, don’t you? it’s like your dinner of food choices which your desire has selected from a buffet table crammed with dishes of various philosophical fares - a scoop of Darwin stew here, a piece of dao dumpling there, some Nietzsche pickles - all of which you had picked up to pile onto your plate as you walked through life.

 

Let's look at Ch.15, Derek Lin's translation (just to show that I am limited in which translations I have read), Lines 6 - 12:

(Descriptors of a Sage.)

 

Hesitatnt, like crossing a wintry river

Cautious, like fearing four neighbors

Solemn, like a guest

Loose, like ice about to melt

Genuine, like plain wood

Open, like a valley

Opaque, like muddy water.

 

I mostly try to live my life based on these concepts. But they are natural traits now so they rarely need be forced.

 

if you say so, pal. lin’s chapter 15 is no good.

 

so, you live cautiously (but you are pretty sure of yourself), conduct yourself like a courteous guest (but you have a short temper), yielding like melting ice (but you won’t back down no matter what), simple like uncarved wood (i give you that), open like a valley (that too)....

 

by the way, why do you want to be sagelike?

 

 

Not sure about Lao Tzu but I am very sure that Chuang Tzu would have openly accepted the thought had enough supporting information been given him.

 

you kidding me? he would be from a culture that inculcated a respect for elders and had a tradition of ancestral worship based on honoring high values handed down through the ages.... from who? a monkey?

 

You need to leave those apes alone! They can cause you harm!

 

Again, can't say about Lao Tzu but Chuang Tzu?, yeah, I think he would have been accepting. Remember, he was even a butterfly once.

 

the chinese mind takes life differently. it doesn’t mess around with identity. their butterfly is not a bug of western science. it has metaphorical significance as all life forms have in pointing to innate spiritual qualities of material phenomena. at the mundane level, the chinese will play any game you want.

 

That was replied to above.

I have 27 different translations of the TTC on my computer, not just Henricks'. Yes, I prefer Henricks'. No, Ihave never spoken with Lao Tzu. Regretfully he died before I was born. So true, all I can go by are what others have said he said. Some I accept, some I do not accept. And this applies to all chapters, not just Ch 45.

 

i understand.

 

No, you are wrong here. Most of my life philosophy was already established before I ever read my first translation of the TTC. And this was only after I had read such people as Darwin and Nietzsche. For me the TTC filled in what was missing in my philosophy. The TTC really is not the first roots of my philosophy.

 

are the first roots of your philosophy created by you? can you operate without any philosophy cooked up by other people?

 

 

I always watch my step except when I don't and then I pay dearly for it. I'm nhot perfect, I'm not a Master, I'm not a Sage, I'm not an expert. But I have lived a long time, over 72 years, so I must be doing something right. And I have had more life experiences than the average person can even imagine. I have lived! Still am. And I try to go with the flow but if the flow is going in a different direction than I wish to go then there will be a battle.

 

not yielding as melting snow?

 

you are thick as multi-year pack ice that could crush the hull of an artic icebreaker.

 

I love talking about philosohpy. I like apes too. Did you know that the Chimp is 98% DNA similar to Homo Sapien? Yep. You are 98% ape.

 

not me, pal. i’d rather be a jehowah witness. just as you are not into religion, i am not into science fiction.

 

when i was a kid, i wore a superman costume with cape and believed i was superman. it drew a lot of chuckles from grown-ups. and they thought that was funny. these days, there are grown-ups, like you, believing that they are apes. now, that is really funny.

 

i love talking about philosophy too; especially with you.

[Marblehead]

Okay, here we go again. Trying to sharp shoot me just because I don't think like you.

 

Fine, I know how to think on my own; don't really need anyone else's help Thanks none-the-less.

you mean your philosophy, don’t you? it’s like your dinner of food choices which your desire has selected from a buffet table crammed with dishes of various philosophical fares - a scoop of Darwin stew here, a piece of dao dumpling there, some Nietzsche pickles - all of which you had picked up to pile onto your plate as you walked through life.

I have already stated many times over that unless I am quoting someone everything I offer here is my understanding and opinion. Yes, I sometimes eat rice with my fish, other times I might eat potatoes with my fish. This is somehow bad?

 

if you say so, pal. lin’s chapter 15 is no good.

Who cares? Why the critique? The base concepts are still valid.

 

so, you live cautiously (but you are pretty sure of yourself), conduct yourself like a courteous guest (but you have a short temper), yielding like melting ice (but you won’t back down no matter what), simple like uncarved wood (i give you that), open like a valley (that too)....

Of course I am very sure of myself. I know my capacities and capabilities.

 

No, that is not true regarding my temper. I am one of the most patient people you will ever know. Yes, I do immediately challenge bullshit. Always have, always will.

 

I have changed my understandings many times through my lifetime. But I don't accept bullshit. If you can't prove something then it is only your opinion; I have enough opinions of my own, I don't need to be holding to others' opinions. Show me some freakin' truth!

 

by the way, why do you want to be sagelike?

I don't. I just said that I am not one.

 

you kidding me? he would be from a culture that inculcated a respect for elders and had a tradition of ancestral worship based on honoring high values handed down through the ages.... from who? a monkey?

That is your opinion. Just as valueless as mine. And stop with the freakin' monkey; we are from the ape family of animals, not the monkey.

the chinese mind takes life differently. it doesn’t mess around with identity. their butterfly is not a bug of western science. it has metaphorical significance as all life forms have in pointing to innate spiritual qualities of material phenomena. at the mundane level, the chinese will play any game you want.

The Chinese mind does not fit into my skull. I have my own mind (brain). I cannot think exactly like anyone else on this planet thinks. Not even my best friend and I think alike all the time.

 

Note: I had to break this into two parts because the board program said I talk too much.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

　

Note: Here is the second part: (You are blue and indented.)

 

are the first roots of your philosophy created by you? can you operate without any philosophy cooked up by other people?

Yes indeed they are. Created by me as a result of my life experiences. Like listen to mom else get my butt burned. My philosophy is mine and mine alone. I enjoy reading those who agree with me. I don't often read a person who disagrees with me on root concepts and issues.I was in my late thirties before I started reading any philosophical work by anyone. I was 100% Soldier for twenty years prior to that. We din't need a philosophy; we just needed to know how to get the job done, no matter what job was handed us. And yes, I can get the job done, and yes, still today.

not yielding as melting snow?

No, I will not suck up to anyone just for their favors. No, I will not yield to someone who I think is totally lost.

you are thick as multi-year pack ice that could crush the hull of an artic icebreaker.

That's okay. Just be glad you aren't married to me.

not me, pal. i’d rather be a jehowah witness. just as you are not into religion, i am not into science fiction.

Yes, I actually believe that. You want magic and the supernatural. Magic is trickery and there is no such thing as supernatural. If a thing can't naturally happen it won't. It just can't happen if it isn't possible for it to happen.

Sure, you could win the lottery if you played. There is a one to four billion chance you could win. Playing poker would have better odds.

 

So you want to call Science "science fiction"? That's fine. But you do believe in computers, don't you? Those were created by god on the sixth day. I remember reading that somewhere. Nothing has evolved. Everything that is has always existed from day six midnight to this present moment.

when i was a kid, i wore a superman costume with cape and believed i was superman. it drew a lot of chuckles from grown-ups. and they thought that was funny. these days, there are grown-ups, like you, believing that they are apes. now, that is really funny.

You still are superman! You even have xray vision. Ah!, the man of steel. In my youth superman wasn't yet created. We were Cowboys and Indians. I killed many an Indian in my youth and save many a pretty lady when they were in need of a hero.

Funny, you can't even get it straight if you evolved from the monkey or the ape. You are the ape. You are the ape! The monkey is a different species line.

i love talking about philosophy too; especially with you.

Hehehe. One day we will likely have to agree that we disagree on a number of things but as long as you can handle the discussion I will be here for you.

[narveen]

Hehehe. One day we will likely have to agree that we disagree on a number of things but as long as you can handle the discussion I will be here for you.

 

talking to you is like talking to my grandpa. tough old stubborn geezer. he lived alone for many years after grandma died. he refused to be shunted into a nursing home and didn't quite care if none of the family came around. but they did; the womenfolk, mostly; to clean up his kitchen and spruce up the place. none of the menfolk would come by on account of his orneriness, his open disdain. none, except me.

 

i never once visited with grandpa out of concern for his well-being or a sense of duty to check in on the old coot. i did it when i was in town for the usual inane holiday family gatherings which were never held at grandpa's place. the womenfolk would just bring him food like offerings to lord ganesh for taipusam and devali. do you know that lord ganesh is the deity with the elephant head and four arms holding out a different thing in each hand?

 

every visit with grandpa was like a tussle between prince arjuna (namely me) and lord krishna (namely, you know who) except that, in our situation, arjuna wasn’t looking for counsel on the battlefield of life and krishna wasn’t imparting wisdom. like i said, talking to him was like talking to you. still, i must have taken away something from the old man every visit. and he must have gotten something from me; otherwise, those long rambling conversations with him wouldn’t have been there. but they were there, a whole collection – like all 18 chapters of the gita - that punctuated the last fifteen years of his life.

 

if i could handle that old fella, you should be a cake-walk. and i wish you a long life, chinese style, in japanese: “banzai!”

[Marblehead]

Rather nice post but I will still respond.

talking to you is like talking to my grandpa. tough old stubborn geezer. he lived alone for many years after grandma died. he refused to be shunted into a nursing home and didn't quite care if none of the family came around. but they did; the womenfolk, mostly; to clean up his kitchen and spruce up the place. none of the menfolk would come by on account of his orneriness, his open disdain. none, except me.

Could we then say that I make you feel right at home?

 

i never once visited with grandpa out of concern for his well-being or a sense of duty to check in on the old coot. i did it when i was in town for the usual inane holiday family gatherings which were never held at grandpa's place. the womenfolk would just bring him food like offerings to lord ganesh for taipusam and devali. do you know that lord ganesh is the deity with the elephant head and four arms holding out a different thing in each hand?

No, I didn't know. Thanks for the knowledge. I'm sure I will forget within three minutes.

 

every visit with grandpa was like a tussle between prince arjuna (namely me) and lord krishna (namely, you know who) except that, in our situation, arjuna wasn’t looking for counsel on the battlefield of life and krishna wasn’t imparting wisdom. like i said, talking to him was like talking to you. still, i must have taken away something from the old man every visit. and he must have gotten something from me; otherwise, those long rambling conversations with him wouldn’t have been there. but they were there, a whole collection – like all 18 chapters of the gita - that punctuated the last fifteen years of his life.

You should feel honored that the old man (your gramps) was willing to talk with you. Old men like your Gramps wouldn't normally speak much with anyone.

 

if i could handle that old fella, you should be a cake-walk. and i wish you a long life, chinese style, in japanese: “banzai!”

And the battle (for a pleasurable conversation) rages on. Yeah, I am a wimp at heart. You should be able to handle me with ease.

 

But thanks, and wishes for a long and happy life to you as well.

 

What would you like to argue about next?

[narveen]

But thanks, and wishes for a long and happy life to you as well.

 

one man's meat is another poison. wishing me a long life is placing a curse on me.

 

if i could either live a long, uneventful life or achieve everlasting glory while dying young, i wish for the latter. it's not about the glory. a life that is pointless is painful to endure; especially, in a dangerous world trapped in a body vulnerable to injury, disease and aging.

 

What would you like to argue about next?

 

i would like to argue about anything we don't agree on with regard to matters that have to do with living a sane life as you see it. i have launched an attack on your position on snowdon in a thread under general discussion. another argument i want is on being an ape, also in general discussion. this will avoid messing up textual study threads which will be picked up should the arguments head back here to sort out your view on the tao te ching.

Edited June 29, 2013 by narveen

[ion]

like what?

what are the basic concepts that shape your reality today existed two thousand years ago?

 

how about a round planet earth circling the sun?

398 years ago Galileo was jailed for life as a heretic for trying to reshape reality from that of a fixed, flat, immovable, non-rotating earth.

 

how about the concept that you are an ape and your ancestors were apes?

Darwin came up with this idea 154 years ago. Who do you think Chuang Tzu would regard as crazy? Darwin or the Pope who believed we descended from Adam and Eve?

 

do you hold any reality-shaping concepts that existed in china two thousand years ago?

 

I dont think the concepts Lao Tzu put forth back then were very widespread, or even widely assimilated at all by the bulk of any culture at all, ever, anywhere.

 

They were not the fruit of chinese culture, but the obscure ramblings of an ubscure man who by way of Tao was liberated from his cultural imprint.

 

They are just as obscure today as they were when he wrote them down. The concepts Lao Tzu put forth were not the type of concepts that you are using for comparison.

 

What you are holding up for comparison are cultural beliefs and ideologies, in otherwords attatchments and the type of "learning" that Lao Tzu suggest we abandon.

 

I think chapter 20 would be a good comparison to hold next to what you are saying-

 

 

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 20

 

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

 

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsence!

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting not knowing where I am.

Like a new-born babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

 

Other have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.

Other men are clear and bright,

But I alone am dim and weak.

Other men are sharp and clever,

But I alone am dull and stupid.

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea.

Without direction, like the restless wind.

 

Everyone else is busy,

But I alone am aimless and depressed.

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

Chapter 20, ironic in relation to the context (this portion of the thread)is something that in this very day and age I can fully relate to. i dont know anything about the festivals hes refering to but I take them to mean any cultural afair; christmas, birthdays, new years and ground hog day, any of them, and Lao Tzu never heard of any of those yet he spoke of their essential nature in chapter 20 of TTC.

 

This chapter also says among many other things that cultural ideology are just that and have nothing to do with a universal being. That the imprint of the culture is something to work at getting rid of.

 

If you are saying that the concepts and observations of Lao Tzu as written in the TTC are reflections of the time that they were written , I think you are mistaken.

 

 

 

 

if you say so, pal. lin’s chapter 15 is no good.

I will agree with you on that-

 

Hesitatnt, like crossing a wintry river

Cautious, like fearing four neighbors

Solemn, like a guest

Loose, like ice about to melt

Genuine, like plain wood

Open, like a valley

Opaque, like muddy water.

Loose like ice about to melt conjurs up an idea of anticipation and preperations based on preconception which I dont think is the point. Besides, Ice about to melt is not loose. Ice melts at basicly 33F maybe a tiny bit less but for the sake of discussion. At 32F water freezes and stays completely frozen until it melts. I think the line describes someone who does not conceive of a self outside the moment and regards identification with past, or future as false, but is one with the eternity of the moment, like ice which at 32F does not concieve of a nearing change in the environment, and with that notion in mind, begin to melt. Ice stays ice, in the moment and as a change arises, everyready for transition because the nature of its character, begins to melt only at the tempreture at which ice melts. As ice melts, it melts when it is frozen it stays frozen. It does not conceive of a nearing change in the environment where in the tempreture will again drop; ice continues to melt and does not stay frozen because of a notion in mind that it will soon be 32F again.

 

Melting snow= the mutual arising of character, action, activity and conditions.

 

 

when i was a kid, i wore a superman costume with cape and believed i was superman. it drew a lot of chuckles from grown-ups. and they thought that was funny. these days, there are grown-ups, like you, believing that they are apes. now, that is really funny.

 

True that the lines people draw, the classifications and labels we make are unreal, but again, the comparisons being made are off balance.

 

Make a description of superman. Do you in anyway fit it? No, clearly we dont have much in common. If you dont believe you are a primate then you shouldn't consider yourself a mammal either because those two classifications are equal in that they classify several species with differences as one group because we all share certain traits that qualify us as members of that group.

 

In that respect people certainly are primates, and if you consider the genome as something of a reputable source youl see we share common ancestors.

 

The fact that we ARE primates is to me, important in understanding the teachings contained in TTC because the fact that we are primates says something about our nature. We are a group animal, designed to be a componenet of a group. Not being arrogant and trying to sieze control, being humble and respecting that all components of the group are integral and equal, and that to benifit the group through selfless actions is to benifit the self. To benefit the self by way of selfish means is to exclude yourself from the group and to recieve no benefit.

 

"Heaven and earth are ever lasting, because they neither live for or of themselves" could be called the motto for any group animal, but very obviously describes the way of all great apes. All permanent cultures, as opposed to insustainable cultures like the American and Chineese cultures, also live by that motto. Cultures that have survived for thousands of years in the harsh jungles world wide all live by that motto. Even if you never heard of Tao, the way to true contenment would be to embrace your primate nature... your essential self.

 

We have the law of Tao wired into our genome and it expresses itself as what we call an ape.

Edited June 29, 2013 by ion

[Marblehead]

one man's meat is another poison. wishing me a long life is placing a curse on me.

That is a shitty attitude.

 

if i could either live a long, uneventful life or achieve everlasting glory while dying young, i wish for the latter. it's not about the glory. a life that is pointless is painful to endure; especially, in a dangerous world trapped in a body vulnerable to injury, disease and aging.

Oh, you poor little baby. Too weak to handle it?

 

i would like to argue about anything we don't agree on with regard to matters that have to do with living a sane life as you see it. i have launched an attack on your position on snowdon in a thread under general discussion. another argument i want is on being an ape, also in general discussion. this will avoid messing up textual study threads which will be picked up should the arguments head back here to sort out your view on the tao te ching.

Oh!, so you have become the teacher of Marblehead in order to guide him down a better path. Well, don't expect any payment until after you have delivered positive results.

 

So, yeah, I live my live based on my understand of 'the Way of Tao' as much as I can. When I see a weed in my garden I pull it as soon as I can. I pull it before it matures and puts out seed thereby giving me even more weeds.

 

I sleep when I am tired and I work when I have excess energy.

 

I even have an excess and therefore I am able to give of that excess to those who are more needy than I.

 

Last line, Ch 45, my interpretation:

 

If you're quiet and tranquil you can live a life of peace and contentment.

 

Yeah, I don't need to be the ruler of the world. Don't even want to be. I would turn down the offer. I would run away if it were insisted on.

[narveen]

That is a shitty attitude.

 

not wanting a long life is a shitty attitude? it’s easy for you to say. not everyone in the world has either your fortunate situation or your appetite for punishment.

 

Oh, you poor little baby. Too weak to handle it?

 

you can bet your sweet ass that i’m too weak to handle a raw deal. who needs a body that grows old. i really dislike old age even if i have all the good stuff like wealth and glory. i have an aversion for old people – not them personally but their situation which i cannot avoid unless i hit the wall and go out in a blaze at 35 in the Daytona 500.

 

looks like we have an argument here that should go to general discussion. would you like to step outside, tough guy?

 

how about a thread called “longevity – good or bad”?

[Marblehead]

not wanting a long life is a shitty attitude? it’s easy for you to say. not everyone in the world has either your fortunate situation or your appetite for punishment.

Okay, let's be truthful here. I have never been fortunate - I have worked my ass off to get where I am and have the comforable conditions I live in.

 

Living as punishment? No, I just don't see it that way. But then, if one has never walked in my shoes they would never know how it feels.

 

you can bet your sweet ass that i’m too weak to handle a raw deal. who needs a body that grows old. i really dislike old age even if i have all the good stuff like wealth and glory. i have an aversion for old people – not them personally but their situation which i cannot avoid unless i hit the wall and go out in a blaze at 35 in the Daytona 500.

Oh no, another James Dean. Live fast and die young. Well, he didn't plan to die young, it just happened that way because he was going fast and wasn't watching where he was going.

 

 

looks like we have an argument here that should go to general discussion. would you like to step outside, tough guy?

Old men don't step outside anymore. They just pull their .38 wherever they are and do what needs be done.

 

I have been invited outside only once in my life and that was when I was a teenager. I went out; I lost. Never again.

 

how about a thread called “longevity – good or bad”?

It's your ball game. Longevity? I already have it, you wish to avoid it. Sure, we can talk about it. Your serve.

[narveen]

Okay, let's be truthful here. I have never been fortunate - I have worked my ass off to get where I am and have the comforable conditions I live in.

 

i believe you. you don’t come across as a moocher. and i am happy for you. chances of making it in life - even to your situation - is slim to none.

 

Living as punishment? No, I just don't see it that way. But then, if one has never walked in my shoes they would never know how it feels.

 

true

 

Oh no, another James Dean. Live fast and die young. Well, he didn't plan to die young, it just happened that way because he was going fast and wasn't watching where he was going.

 

but i plan not to die old. i don’t want to be a tim tebow sitting on the bench doing nothing.

when it dawns on me that tao heaven has nothing in store for me and it’s past half-time, i’m going to tell coach, “f*ck it. i’m outa here.”

 

Old men don't step outside anymore. They just pull their .38 wherever they are and do what needs be done.

 

yeah, i read about that old guy in his ninetines sitting in his chair with his shotgun waiting for those punks breaking into his basement to come up. and when they did...his aim was deadly.

 

i have a healthy respect for guns and don’t like them after a first-time out to a shooting range in wisconsin. the gunshop owner was impressed that, as a first-timer, my shots were on target and the grouping were remarkably tight. i was a natural. in all that time on the range, half my attention was on the lethal power being unleashed by me and the other shooters with each whack! whack! whack! of our handguns. i was relieved to get out of there before some dumbshit carelessly let off a whack! in my direction and say ”sorry” as i watch blood flowing out of my belly like some friggin’ cia operative in benghazi.

 

just to let you know that you have not been pissin' in the wind, there are many things you have posted that are worth arguing about. they are captured in my files and waiting for me to lock and reload.

Edited July 1, 2013 by narveen

[Marblehead]

i believe you. you don’t come across as a moocher. and i am happy for you. chances of making it in life - even to your situation - is slim to none.

Yes, I am aware of that. Today's youth have a much more difficult time than I did when I was younger.

 

but i plan not to die old. i don’t want to be a tim tebow sitting on the bench doing nothing.

when it dawns on me that tao heaven has nothing in store for me and it’s past half-time, i’m going to tell coach, “f*ck it. i’m outa here.”

I can almost agree with you here. But Tim is still earning big bucks. If he invests it wisely he will be set for a very comforable life when he does yang up the shoulder pads.

 

But we can always find new things to do. I know a few retired military people who retired from service, started a new career and retired from that as well.

 

yeah, i read about that old guy in his ninetines sitting in his chair with his shotgun waiting for those punks breaking into his basement to come up. and when they did...his aim was deadly.

 

i have a healthy respect for guns and don’t like them after a first-time out to a shooting range in wisconsin. the gunshop owner was impressed that, as a first-timer, my shots were on target and the grouping were remarkably tight. i was a natural. in all that time on the range, half my attention was on the lethal power being unleashed by me and the other shooters with each whack! whack! whack! of our handguns. i was relieved to get out of there before some dumbshit carelessly let off a whack! in my direction and say ”sorry” as i watch blood flowing out of my belly like some friggin’ cia operative in benghazi.

Yes, lethal weapons are serious business. If you point one at someone you need to be 100% confident that you will squeeze off a round if you need to. I wish it were so the no one needed to carry or keep one but life just isn't that way. There are many people on this planet who would want what another has and they are willing to kill in order to take it.

 

just to let you know that you have not been pissin' in the wind, there are many things you have posted that are worth arguing about. they are captured in my files and waiting for me to lock and reload.

You haven't offended me. But please know that there are some long-time members here who might be offended by some of the things you say.

 

I know that some things I say don't go over lightly with some of our members. But I must speak the truth as I understand it. I can apologize later. And I thank you for your post to Cat.

 

In your arguements with me, please try to not generalize; be specific so that others understand that you are speaking with me and no one else.

 

Yes, life has many challenges. The better prepared we are for the challenges in life the less they will effect us long-term.

[Hilarious Username!]

I definitely have a bone to pick with Robert Henricks' "If you're quiet and tranquil you can become the ruler of the world."

 

I think doesn't convey the meaning of the Tao fully. Seems to me that ruling the world implies ruling other people, and ruling other people is of no value .

[Marblehead]

I definitely have a bone to pick with Robert Henricks' "If you're quiet and tranquil you can become the ruler of the world."

 

I think doesn't convey the meaning of the Tao fully. Seems to me that ruling the world implies ruling other people, and ruling other people is of no value .

Hehehe. I know. I don't agree with him sometime either but his is still my favorite translation.

 

(But remember that the translation may well be as acccurate as any other because in many places in the TTC Lao Tzu was speaking directly to the would-be ruler of the (known) world.)