Helder Posted July 24, 2010 Hi, The microcosmic orbit (MO) practice is clear: yang energy up the back and yin energy down the front channel, connecting at the palate. But at the same time chinese medicine agrees that the front or functional yin channel runs upthe body. I got confused. In my experience tracing the energy up the functional chanel feels bad. It feels unstable, ungrounding. Everythign that traces it down feels good. But mybe this is because in my case both back and front channels are connected? I got confused because a person I trust, Donna Eden, states with complete confidence that that merdian is to be traced upwards. Why then it is traced down in the MO and why does that feel right to me? Even Mantak Chia agrees in his book that the functional channel runs up the body but then, of course, instructs to run the energy down through it in the MO. What is right? I should follow my own feeling of course but sometimes these thigns get a little confusing...like the differences between man and women in directions also...finally who do we trust? ourselves? Thanks, any input appreciated, especially from those with DIRECT experience of their energy flows and what clearly works best for them! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sahaj Nath Posted July 24, 2010 Hi, The microcosmic orbit (MO) practice is clear: yang energy up the back and yin energy down the front channel, connecting at the palate. But at the same time chinese medicine agrees that the front or functional yin channel runs upthe body. I got confused. In my experience tracing the energy up the functional chanel feels bad. It feels unstable, ungrounding. Everythign that traces it down feels good. But mybe this is because in my case both back and front channels are connected? I got confused because a person I trust, Donna Eden, states with complete confidence that that merdian is to be traced upwards. Why then it is traced down in the MO and why does that feel right to me? Even Mantak Chia agrees in his book that the functional channel runs up the body but then, of course, instructs to run the energy down through it in the MO. What is right? I should follow my own feeling of course but sometimes these thigns get a little confusing...like the differences between man and women in directions also...finally who do we trust? ourselves? Thanks, any input appreciated, especially from those with DIRECT experience of their energy flows and what clearly works best for them! you write with clarity. i wish more people wrote like that. if you feel the flow as clearly as you write about, then you are very fortunate. listen to your body before listening to a book. that's not an advice that i would give to everyone, but it seems very likely to be true in your case. run the energy down the front. your body will tell you when it's okay to run it upwards. i do both, but i defer to my body first. if you're really sensitive enough to follow your body's lead, you're going to advance much faster than most of the people on this board. intuition first. THEN books. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) this is the same clarification I was asking for when I posted my question about the Wind Path, what Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming refers to as running the MCO in reverse. He said the literature was limited but that it could be useful for keeping excessive fire energy at bay, especially if you live in a hot climate. I believe there is consensus in here amongst the more accomplished practitioners that patiently observing the direction of your energy's intent is recommended over any sustained forcing. Reverse MCO is natural for me and ever since I gave into it it's become much more stable, even in the narrow corridors. I do wish there was more formal literature on the subject though, because I do like roadmaps! "The Root of Chinese Chi Kung" pp. 80,96. Edited July 24, 2010 by Blasto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Man Contradiction Posted July 24, 2010 Neither up nor down, just open. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pero Posted July 24, 2010 I got confused because a person I trust, Donna Eden, states with complete confidence that that merdian is to be traced upwards. Why then it is traced down in the MO and why does that feel right to me? Even Mantak Chia agrees in his book that the functional channel runs up the body but then, of course, instructs to run the energy down through it in the MO. What is right? I should follow my own feeling of course but sometimes these thigns get a little confusing...like the differences between man and women in directions also...finally who do we trust? ourselves? Well in my experience I like the down the front, didn't try the other versions because there was no such instruction in Chia's methods (or elsewhere) and/or I didn't feel the need. The different flows are supposed to have different effects, I'm going to quote below from Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy. Also perhaps it's important to distinguish meditative practice and TCM theory/practice. The Governing and Conception Vessels each have two energy flows on the anterior and posterior vertical midline of the body. Each vessel's pathway is complete, being composed of an ascending energetic flow and a descending energetic flow. The duality of these two medial lines joins at the extremities (the head and perineum), forming one complete circle of energetic current. Both vessels are superimposed on each other, with the energy of the Governing Vessel being predominant up the back and inferior down the front (behind the Conception Vessel);the energy of the Conception Vessel is predominant up the front and inferior down the back (behind the Governing Vessel). The energetic movement of these two currents explains why there are two opposite directions of focused concentration used in energy cultivation meditations. The Yang or Fire Path is the most popular method of cultivating energy along the Small Heavenly Cycle or Microcosmic Orbit. Because it joins together the body's Yin and Yang rivers of Qi, which regulate the Twelve Primary Channels, it is considered the foundational meditation for the Internal Elixir Cultivation methods. ... The initial goal is to circulate the Fire energy from Yang to Yin to convert Jing to Qi and then to Shen. The Yang (Fire) Qi supports awareness of the emotional side of consciousness. The Water Path is trained only after the completion of the Fire Path circulation exercise. ... The purpose for the Water Path circulation is to change, regulate, and charge the body's Yuan Shen. The Water cycle supports the perceptional side of consciousness, cools down the body's overheated Yang Qi, and regulate the Qi circulation of the Fire Path to rebalance the body. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted July 25, 2010 Whoops. Correction - as someone already told me, the Wind Path is only a reverse directed circuit between the lower and middle dantien. Sorry for any confusion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TianhuaQigong Posted July 25, 2010 up back, down front but you have to have Qi at Dantian first, otherwise it called "turn empty river cart" in old book, work on Dan first, then MCO or, you know the way got Qi in mins Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted July 25, 2010 It goes both ways. Some people activate it via a hands mudra that prompts~allows flows both up&down; that's a nifty solution. I'm currently diggin' activating all of the eight extraordinaries; I find it does more of what the mo was advertised as. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Helder Posted July 26, 2010 Thank you to all folks, I have learned much from all of you. I guess the answer is clear then: first our own body wisdom, then books. I agree. Books are useful as well, and have their place. At least they give us pointers but then we must have the courage to listen to what our body needs, which may be contrary to what a book or anybody says. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pero Posted July 26, 2010 Thank you to all folks, I have learned much from all of you. I guess the answer is clear then: first our own body wisdom, then books. I agree. Books are useful as well, and have their place. At least they give us pointers but then we must have the courage to listen to what our body needs, which may be contrary to what a book or anybody says. This assuming you really are listening to your body's wisdom or whatever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
松永道 Posted July 26, 2010 I guess the answer is clear then: first our own body wisdom, then books. I agree. Books are useful as well, and have their place. At least they give us pointers but then we must have the courage to listen to what our body needs, which may be contrary to what a book or anybody says. Good. Book knowledge can provide form, but body wisdom is the substance. Like water and a cup. The cup is an empty edifice without water but water needs a cup to contain it, bring it place to place. As for the misconceptions on Ren Mai, the front channel, many TCM people get it confused. It is numbered up from the Huiyin point to the head, so some people think it flows bottom to top. Don't be confused though, the Ren Mai no more flows bottom to top than nourishment flows from seedling down the root. Roots grow down, but bring nourishment up. The Ren Mai grows up, but brings nourishment down. Like all vessels it emerges from the lower dantian, like shoots from a seed, some stems some roots, some flow away like Du Mai to the brain, some flow back, like Ren Mai to the gut. But don't get too concerned about the flow and orbit. Things really flow because of abundance, not mind stuff. No need to trick yourself. Water the seed and it will grow. Develop the dantian and MCO will flow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Helder Posted July 26, 2010 But don't get too concerned about the flow and orbit. Things really flow because of abundance, not mind stuff. No need to trick yourself. Water the seed and it will grow. Develop the dantian and MCO will flow. Great reply, thank you so much. I understand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beoman Posted July 26, 2010 up back, down front but you have to have Qi at Dantian first, otherwise it called "turn empty river cart" in old book, work on Dan first, then MCO or, you know the way got Qi in mins so i shouldn't attempt MCO at all until i can get a clear feeling of qi in my dantian? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
松永道 Posted July 27, 2010 so i shouldn't attempt MCO at all until i can get a clear feeling of qi in my dantian? The genuine MCO starts of it's own accord after you have a lower dantian. This is an important point in many traditional Taoist systems, men don't even have a dantian before cultivation. Tian means field. Dan is the best of medicines, a panacea. Dantian is the medicine growing in a cultivated field. All men have the field, few have a Dan growing there. Women, on the other hand, are said to have a 3 year head start. Their lower field is already cultivated, fertile, ready for planting. After all, it's where babies grow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Helder Posted July 27, 2010 The genuine MCO starts of it's own accord after you have a lower dantian. This is an important point in many traditional Taoist systems, men don't even have a dantian before cultivation. Tian means field. Dan is the best of medicines, a panacea. Dantian is the medicine growing in a cultivated field. All men have the field, few have a Dan growing there. Women, on the other hand, are said to have a 3 year head start. Their lower field is already cultivated, fertile, ready for planting. After all, it's where babies grow. This is very interesting. One question: to cultivate the Dantian what methods do you suggest? I am following Chia's techniques, such as "Warming the Stove". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrum Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) The best Way is in person. The mco mirrors natUral raising of awareness. Most people don't walk around with their hair standing on end, yet, when it happens , it is what it is. Reversing it is like a tonic. Best to let nature take it's course. Heat in the lower field is a good sign to progress to moving forms, a good moving form will naturally circulate your chi, it is important to build a good foundation through cultivating the three treasures in tandom. (Jing chi shen) begin with Jing : The food we eat, the air we breath, water, and how we move all co tribute to the quality of Jing that will be heating up to be circulated through practice. Edited July 27, 2010 by Spectrum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TianhuaQigong Posted July 27, 2010 so i shouldn't attempt MCO at all until i can get a clear feeling of qi in my dantian? yes, peopel should not start MCO right way, work on Qi at Dantian first. in old Taoist Qigong, work on Dantian Qi only, (no sex for at least 100 days, and something else) . then Qi will flow to MCO by itself, from back to top then down from front, (so --- It is start from back, ) now, it is almost impossible to teach like that, so there are some form of MCO, but still you should start Qi at Dantian first. then go MCO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
松永道 Posted July 29, 2010 This is very interesting. One question: to cultivate the Dantian what methods do you suggest? I am following Chia's techniques, such as "Warming the Stove". Don't know Chia's techniques. But I do suggest whatever technique you may practice, complement it with a body exercise. Yoga, Taiji, other internal martial arts, even external Shaolin stuff will all involve developing lower abdominal, lumbar, and pelvic floor muscle control requisite to developing the lower dantian. To understand the Dantian you must understand Yin and Yang. The Dan is Yang. The Tian is yin. Back to the image of a field. The field is yin, a nourishing soil. Yang work is required to till, tend, and protect the field. Yang work, on yin soil, produces yang crops. Yang mobilizes yin, yin nourishes yang, yang transforms yin, yin contains yang, yin yang yin yang. Magnetic poles attract their opposite neighbor. For our purposes we'll view one piece of the picture, yang within yin within yang. Yang within is the Dan, yin is the gut field, outer yang is the muscles. You need a strong back to plow the field. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites