manitou

Hello, anyone who's been following this thread. I'm going to post the rest of the precepts all at once, because my husband and I will be pulling a 5th wheel from Ohio to California and I don't know how often I'll be online for a while. Ramacharaka's comment on #19: Seek the way by advancing boldly without. "Be not afraid. Nothing can harm you. You are a living, eternal soul. Therefore, be bold. Look around you and see what is going on in the world - and learn lessons thereby. See the workings of the great loom of life - watch the shuttles fly - see the cloth of various texture and colors that is being produced. See it all as Life....." "Live your own life - on your own plane of development - but scorn not those who are still on the lower planes. See Life in all its throbbing forms, and realize that you are part of it all. It is all one - and you are part of that one...."

god knows, love is worth struggling for. I can't tell you how many horrible things we've had to put up with each other over the past 28 years. Much worse than a messy room - theft of a large sum of money from my mother, skid-row alcoholism (when he went off the wagon). I'm sure he has his share of stories about me too. My feeling is that you have 'attracted' this into your life for some reason. You have manifested it. Even if your conscious self didn't know of her tendency toward messiness, your unconscious did. There is a reason you are put in the position of 'cleaning up after someone else'. If you don't work it out in this relationship, you will have to work it out in another relationship - your need to clean things up for another person. My guess is it's not a coincidence, in my experience this is how things work in life. If you stand back really far out in space and look at your totality, you may find that there was something in your young years that you were unable to 'clean up' - a messy situation (physical or non-physical) perhaps involving one of your folks or siblings that was continually messy in some respect. An out-of-control dynamic in your young life that you wished continually to be able to change but were unable. Maybe parents continually fighting? A continually bad relationship with a brother or sister? A parent who was a 'perfectionist' and who rode you really hard about not being organized enough or 'good' enough? If it is one of these dynamics, this is the very dynamic that you can put to bed through this relationship. It's about control, I'll bet. Maybe you're frustrated because you can't 'control' her behavior; if that's the case, then this is the perfect opportunity for you to lighten up on your need for perfect order (if this is what it is). Maybe the very thing that attracted you to her (maybe spontanaity?) is the other side of the coin of her messiness. Or maybe it's something that's out of her control too. Could be she has an old attention-deficit disorder component that keeps her flying from one thing to the next without putting things away - I can sure relate to that one. In any case, it seems like an opportunity for you to go inside and see why it is so irritating and why it bothers you so. Might be you're being too hard on yourself in some way, and have been for many years....and the dynamic is being played out in front of you for your continual growth. My guess is that if you don't work this dynamic out, you'll keep attracting it. That's the problem with kicking one out and going for another. The dynamic is still there and you will most likely attract the same thing, perhaps in a slightly different form, as you will think you have 'learned' from this experience and not go for another messy one. But there will be messiness in another area, if not papers on the floor. Might be you're right where you're supposed to be

Really nicely written, Scott. After having thought about this very thing for many years, I realize that the thing that addiction did for me (and still does, I can get addicted to anything really easily) is that it keeps my eyes off self. It gives my body and mind something else to focus on rather than focusing on the disorders within myself. addiction seems to deflect the attention. It's hurtful to go in, to admit that we are imperfect and in fact have screwed up many times in life and need to go back and rectify things to make things better for us....

I'd like to comment on my own personal experience of being led by the spirit. Prior to my understanding of this, I was 'led by Barbara'. This never seemed to work out too well. Particularly prior to my alcoholic breakdown and subsequent having to do the inner work to get sober, thru the 12 steps. All things do come to us, if we merely await the moment. We truly begin to realize that all things are as they should be at this point in time; that the best changes are made when the dynamics of a situation are allowed to mature and be 'seen'. It is by doing the inner work that the vision is developed. It has happened to me. It is a sort of triangulation that happens, enabling me to 'see' situations and souls. I get the impression that the place of 'seeing' is over my right shoulder and behind me a bit; but the result is a series of 'imagined?' triangles and geometric shapes, which I perceive as a neon green in color; but somehow the corners of these shapes pick up bits of information in their angles and tie the whole situation into a viewable form. I haven't a clue how it happens, it just does. And when there is a whole lot of inner work done and we get down to our essence, we tap into a channel of sorts. When discussions are getting very heady and hard for me to follow, this thing inside me 'zooms out' so I can see the the outward form of the discussion and understand it from that POV. Sometimes the Voice will kick in - not a change in my actual voice, but words that I had no intention of saying. This does happen to me a lot, and the channel will sometimes say surprising things to even people I don't know (always in kindness). I don't think these encounters are generally for me....rather, I think the channel within me is speaking to the channel within another, whether he's aware of its existence of not. Perhaps it says exactly what the person needs to hear at the moment, I don't know. Upwardly growing, always.

Ramacharaka's comments on #18: "Seek the way by retreating within." 'We have just spoken of this trust in the Something Within. This precept emphasizes this phase of occult teaching. Learn to retreat within the Silence, and listen to the voice of your soul - it will tell you many great things. In the Silence the Spiritual Mind will unfold and pass on to your consciousness bits of the great truths which lie buried within its recesses. It will pass on to the Intellect certain fragments of truth from its own great storehouse, and the Intellect will afterwards accept them, and reason from the premises thus obtained. 'Intellect is cold - Spiritual Mind is warm and alive with high feeling. The Spiritual Mind is the source of much that is called "inspiration." Poets, painters, sculptors, writers, preachers, orators, and others have received this inspiration in all times, and do so today. 'This is the source from which the seer obtains his vision - the prophet his foresight. By development of his Spiritual Consciousness, Man may bring himself into a high relationship and contact with this higher part of his nature, and may thus become possessed of a knowledge of which the Intellect has not dared to dream. 'When we learn to trust the Spirit, it responds by sending us more frequent flashes of illumination and enlightenment. As one unfolds in Spiritual Consciousness, he relies more upon the Inner Voice, and is more readily able to distinguishy it from the impulses from the lower planes of the mind. He learns to follow the guidance of the spirit, and to allow it to lend him a helping hand. 'To be "led by the Spirit" is a living and real fact in the lives of all who have reached a certain stage of spiritual development.'

Group hug, everyone

Did you know that Bill W. was an open-minded gent who dropped acid after about 25 years of sobriety to aid in his inner quest? Googling it will find it. I would look forward to a 12 step line that helped us go inwards, right brain understanding instead of left brained intellectualism. I don't think the intent is to really 'get us off substances' as Bill W. would have been concerned about. I think what Encephalon's trying to do is merge a couple of paths inward to unleash our right brain capability; once the right brain has been tapped into that is when true understanding begins. But, if somebody is going to use the thread to actually get off substance, then I see exactly what you're saying, Aaron. It must be done straight. To merge it with the other distraction would leave too many loopholes through which the substance abuser would be able to slip. Or not. Maybe the Buddhists in L.A. have found a perfect way to merge the 12 steps with the eightfold path to do the inner work. This I would be real interested in participating in, albeit a bit strange for my 30 sober years through the original 12 steps. But I do think openmindedness is a good thing; and what's the harm in trying to merge the two, even for an experiment? If somebody actually uses this thread to get sober and is unable to stay sober because it's not exactly the 12 steps, where's the harm? All things are as they should be; it is not their time to get sober. I hope you participate, Twinner, because your right brain and left brain seem pretty well merged from my point of view. Your intellectual self is nicely merged with your understanding of self. You would have so much to add.

witch, I can match you for crazy. Not only do I think the light has been 'bent' in some way (as we talked about before) but I clearly can see Mr. Obama performing Wu-Wei on the globe. It's as though when there's a problem, he knows to Stop Juggling and watch where the pieces land, then quietly put them back into a different motion. Total left brainers see him as one who cannot make a decision, one who does not charge forward at the front of the army with his sword drawn. I see him as a man who understands The Art of War down to his bones and will get no credit for anything until history is written 20 years from now. Such a mass alignment is happening right now, people reaching upward to throw off their shackles - if I were a Christian woman I would say the meek are inheriting the earth (meek not in the sense of fearful or timid, but more the common man sort of thing). And yes, the synchronicity has kicked way up in my daily life too, as you mention it. Things like being at my mother's apartment and having the word BARBARA flash across the screen in a commercial of some sort, at the very same moment seeing her morning pill nurse walk through the front door and holler 'BARBARA!' at me, as we hadn't seen each other in a few months. Just weird stuff. But lots of it. Perhaps we are nearing the end of a time bubble of sorts, and in doing so it does actually crunch time up a bit. The speed of our communication now is instantaneous and at our fingertips or in front of our eyes. Much of the world is now communicating with each other at the speed of light, with more joining in every day. What an incredible time we're living in right now. I like sitting here on the fence and watching it go by.

I've stopped posting in the Taoist section and the Taoist Book Study section because my thoughts don't fit tightly enough into the Taoist structure, according to one who has self-appointed himself as the decider of what is of the Tao and what is not. I would say I4L belongs in the General Discussion section, in the room where all paths meet. This too is where I will stay. Those who wish to remain in structure can remain within their structure. Or, we can bounce ideas off each other and evolve upward and upward. When I find a wormhole in common with VJ, for example, not only does it make my heart sing but it affirms one more time that we're all talking about the same thing and perhaps the torch has been passed to us, as more enlightened and evolved ones , to find the commonality between all these paths. To me, this differentiation is a step backward, and I hope to help turn the General Discussion forum into a free-thinking arena where we can look for the commonalities between our thought-bubbles, as opposed to our differences delineated into comfy little grooves. The choice is Ours, as always. As an afterthought - I don't think the decision should have been made by polling the general membership. I think there are relatively few posters compared to the general viewership. Yes, it is 'convenient' for someone who's curious about a particular path, be it Taoist, Buddhist, or Yogi - that's an organizational matter. Yes, now we have a better 'organized' website. But I don't think the 'posters' on this forum (had they only been asked) would have answered the same way. Convenience wouldn't have been the issue (as it appears to me that the general populace voted for). I think we've evolved our own dynamics over the years with each other, and Dammit, I Miss CowTao! And Veejay! And SethAnanda. And so many others. But being a spiritual mongrel and knowing next to nothing about these specific pathways, I am merely self-realized with a shamanic twist, who happens to love the TTC so much that I've probably read it 100 times. I don't feel that I fit within the lines on any of these categories, so I'll just be hanging out with Immortal in General Discussion, whom I get a kick out of anyways.

Well, not until now..... YESSSSS!!!!!! This ties in so beautifully with my shamanic half and it also satisfies my detective brain. I fully agree with everything there - I've always been of the belief that the prophets of old were granted their visions while under the influence of something wonderful and strange, lol. The manna thing is perfect. Mushrooms. Of course. I honestly believe all our various thought-bubbles, especially involving the religious beginnings of all thought, stem from mushrooms and similar substances; ayahuasca, cannabis, etc. This is truly a perfect way for the earth, our mother, to hand down certain types of information about the way things work. These are the types of things, the nondescribable things, that are conveyed to us through the plant kingdom. The Sage understands the workings of the Tao. Throughout history, certainly many plants have had their say to men who are willing to listen. Thanks to both of you -

In your beautiful words I see: Reversion is the action of the Tao. How mysterious the idea of cold love over a burning heart, and yet at some point we learn that true love is impersonal i.e. cold. Cold in that it doesn't require another warm heart to match it - rather, the warm heart generates the cold love for every thing and every body. It is hot and cold at the same time. You are the Snow Lion. From nectar indeed your wisdom was born. I see in you a fellow seeker and salute your talent for abstract thought.

Sometimes I wonder if mushrooms aren't the 'brain' of the planet. Looking at it from way out in space, we are all the children of the sun; we are stardust that has somehow been animated. If the evolution of the earth began with fire cooling, and cooling, and life forming, a little at a time, then we are all a part of that dynamic. I've heard it said that there are huge mushroom fields under the earth in certain parts of the planet. I can't help but think that perhaps there's an analogy to the mushroom of the earth and the brain of the human being somewhat analogous. When we tap into the mushroom (or a vine, or even cannabis) perhaps this is the very joinder between man and plant and the earth's intelligence. We receive open-mindedness, we receive visions, we do receive wisdom. But it's my experience that the information or insight comes at the level that the person is ready for. After all, we and all life on the planet are in unison.

Or...don't cast out so hard that you scare the fish away.

I'd say imagination is what results after ego has been intentionally set aside. I think by 'getting ourselves out of the way' (our forward thinking yang thought that try and plan everything out) we open ourselves to the creative energy that underlies everything and is available to everyone. The most interesting art I've done is that which I 'allow' to create itself as it goes along. The work that is all planned out ahead of time suffers from lack of true creativity.

The original human being, as I see it, is the skinwalker version of the I Am. It would be the undefiled human soul at birth prior to learned behavior. Before even learning to smile. More on the "Light on the Path" book: 17. Seek out the way. 18. Seek the way by retreating within. 19. Seek the way advancing boldly without. Ramacharaka's first paragraph on commenting on Precept 17, is as follows: "Seek Out the Way." Seek it not by strenuous endeavor, but by opening up yourself to the promptings of the Spirit - by recognizing the hunger of the soul for spiritual bread - the thirst for the draught from the spring of life. "Draw knowledge by the Law of Attraction. It will come to you in obedience to that law. It is yours for the asking, and nothing can keep it from you, or you from it. "As Emerson says: 'The things that are for thee, gravitate to thee. Oh, believe, as thou livest, that every sound that is spoken over the round world which thou oughtest to hear, will vibrate on thine ear. Every proverb, every book, every by-word that belongs to thee for aid or comfort, whall surely come home through open or winding passages."

I vote for 'uncovered and unfolded' too. That is actually the dynamic, not an outward 'gaining' momentum. Better choice of words. Same with the undesirable traits. They are piled atop the original human being due to conditioning and this plate of spaghetti must be straightened out before vision occurs.

I can take a metaphysical shot at what I think reality is. I think reality is the golden stream of consciousness that pervades every man, woman and child on the planet; it pervades and animals plants and seemingly unsentient things, although my guess is that there's some degree of awareness in unsentient things too. This reality is a figure 8, it goes on and on and on. No beginning, no end. Even if there were an 'end' my suspicion is that the 'reality' would be flipped to another dimension if something were to happen to this dimension. Black hole vs. white dwarf, that sort of thing. I agree with Aaron about the lucid dreaming phenomenon; I do think it's evidence of separate realities; a more quantum way of looking at things. I think this golden reality has an Intent. I think the golden reality started within the fire of the sun, in this universe and in this time, and manifested to the outward its Intent. It intended for the world to be fiery. It intended for the world to cool. It intended for water and clouds and weather to be formed, it in itself is all of these and 'it' grows as the planet changes. It kept changing, evolving, manifesting. Life formed in the oceans, climbed up onto the shores. Kept changing, reaching upward. Always reaching for the sun, always REACHING FOR ITSELF in a complete goal of Oneness of expression. I see that Oneness of expression as being the expression of Love. Or magnetism, if you'd rather. Or gravity, one object to another in space. There's just something about gravity. This odd force that longs for itself, that collects things to itself, that joins other things. It's this unseen force of gravity that is the glue; perhaps that is analogous with Love when it comes to human activity one to another. It manifested through animals. It manifested through evolutionary means and at this point the manifestation is human in perhaps its most sophisticated forms (that are visible; no accounting for higher awarenesses and beings that we are unable to see at this point in our journey.) Many Christians I know believe that eternity begins the day 'they' die. A bit arrogant, to my way of thinking. They've always been, they'll always be. But that doesn't fit into their frame of reference. Where does it want to go from here? It wants everything to return to Oneness, from my perspective. The longer time goes on, the more we become technologically capable of all speaking with the same voice at the same time. We are finding out that we no longer 'need' the old ways of being ruled; now each and every man has his voice. And each and every man has his equal shot at financial success through the internet, if he chooses. We have no need for a king to supply our grain; we are all Gods in waiting, if only we could see that. It wants us to remove the illusion of the false self that we accumulated around us from birth. It wants to manifest freely and purely through these bodies of ours, its vessels. It's not tied up with good and bad, religious or atheist; rather, it merely wants to express the pure human being from within. I am guessing that those who truly find the golden essence are those who go within to find It. Even the Nazarene said 'Know Thyself', as does every other path in the world, it seems. I see It as being two-dimensional in its desires for us humans; we've evolved the brain to look without, to choose a structure, to go way out as far as possible within that construct. But as far out as our brains must go to develop our understanding (the understandings that have been built, generation by generation, each of us standing on the shoulders of our forefathers), our psyche must go an equal distance into self. We must look for our part in every disagreement, every disagreeable situation, and own up to our own deficiencies. It is only be removing the dross of what we've been taught to believe, that we find the pony under the manure. and this process does take a very long time; I suspect it continues until the last Yeehaw! When we find the pony, magically our perspective slightly shifts from one which is self-centered, to one that is 'us-centered'. We see all people as One, hardly a new idea. Actually, this is an idea that the indigenous Knew in their hearts and acted as one unit; it does seem to me that there is a necessary return (due to the pending collapse of just about every social structure we've known) to humanity looking out for humanity. The degree of unfairness that us imperfect humans have created around the world appears to be changing daily. The Essence within each and every protester everywhere....is speaking loudly now. It wants Its freedom to express. Each and every soul has just the same amount of God-ness within it; however, I think about 99% of the world doesn't realize it yet. My personal feeling is that if you took Buddhism, Yogi philosophy, Taoism, Christianity (the mature variety) and every other ism in the world (including Atheism) and backed up and looked at the essence of each, that the Oneness of all the paths makes itself apparent. They join in the room where all paths meet. (I like to think of TTB's as a room where all paths meet). The room where all paths meet is the room of Love. Not sexual or selfish love. An agape type of love that extends to everything and everybody. Somehow, within this continuous 'weave' that It knits century after century, the Love is the glue, and Love is the lesson. I think open-mindedness is the key. I think once one has pronounced oneself a Master, it would be tempting to close off the mind and feel that one's job is in giving answers. We'll never know all the answers. So, best be a student, always. It our minds are open and we are clinging to no preconceived notions, then quantum possibilities come into play. On the other hand, if our minds are pre-set with attitude, or a dislike of someone - then we cut off our own realm of possibility within which to act or react. Then, it 'has' to fit into what we already 'believe'. Believe. I think beliefs are mindsets and just by their nature cut off all other options. When the pony is found, there is only Knowing. Belief, its artificial cousin, is no longer necessary. It sounds arrogant to speak of Knowing, but I do know from personal experience that folks that have found the place of Knowing have all found the same thing. they Know the same thing. And it's nothing that can be communicated by words. It must be experienced by the individual alone, the journey of Self-Realization.

I'm seeing it from a slightly different perspective. Once the soul knowledge has been gained, it remains as a residual undercurrent which underlies everything in the enlightened person's life; their perspective is forever modified. There is no situation that cannot be seen through the eyes of love, regardless of how horrific it seems. Yes, the soul is forever, has been, will always be. It's our choice as to whether we want to get down to the true gifts by going to the effort of eliminating the undesirable traits within us and finding that which shines within. Thank you for participating in this thread with me, 3bob. I truly appreciate it.

Couldn't agree more, Aaron. We developed brains for a reason, and to be kept open and in a state of continual learning. For someone to grab onto a particular dogma, kind of like a monkey gripping onto a fence, only inhibits their further progress. Dogma is a cage. When the brain kicks in and we actually start to ask ourselves whether any of this makes sense or not (the dogma) the enlightenment can begin. In the end they all lead to the same place; the entity within. When the cage is let go of, then the similarities between all can be observed and understood.

thanks, Patrick! Wonderful to watch. By the way, Auntie's steamed chocolate pudding this month looks damned good. Does it say in real small print that it's only 30 calories???

I think there's two sides to the idea of tolerance. On one hand, yes, the world is getting smaller by the day and people MUST learn to tolerate cultures different than their own. But sometimes I think tolerance turns into a type of political correctness, which we seem to have in the U.S., which disallows us from talking about the very things that need to be talked about. There is still a huge scab on racism here - and the scab prevents us from getting to the original wound. We just keep covering it up and think that because calling someone a racial epithet is now frowned upon, that the problem has gone away. No racism here? Huh. Have we ever previously seen a white Democratic president totally obstructed, every step of the way, by Congress? As to self-esteem, which I've never had until much later in life, I think self-esteem comes from being an esteemable person. I'm not sure it can be artificially manufactured by constant mantra or anything.

Yamacharaka's views on Precept 15: "Desire possession above all." "This sounds like queer teaching along spiritual lines, but read on. 'But those possessions must belong to the pure soul only, and be possessed therefore by all pure souls equally, and thus be the especial property of the whole only when united. Hunger for such possessions as can be held by the pure soul, that you may accumulate wealth for that united spirit of life which is your true self." (Emphasis mine) "These possessions, obviously, are not materials possessions, but the possessions of the soul. And what is a soul able to possess? Knowledge only, for all else is unreal, and passeth away. Therefore let the soul desire the possession and attainment of the knowledge which it needs - the knowledge of the Spirit. And this best knowledge may be possessed by the pure soul only - the other kind of souls do not care for it. "And the pure soul is willing to hold such possessions in common for all other souls who are able to accept a share in it, or to make use of it, and no attempt is made to claim especial property rights in such possessions, and it is recognized as the property of the "united whole." "There can be no "corners" in spiritual knowledge, no matter how vigorously some mortals may claim to possess same - there can be no monopoly upon these possessions, for they are free as water to those who are ready and willing to receive them. Although the most valuable of all possessions, they are literally "without money and without price", and woe unto him who attempts to sell the gifts of the Spirit -- for he sells that which cannot be delivered except to those who are ready for them, and those who are ready for them have no need to buy--they simply help themselves from the feast."

Well, at some point, some believe that it all comes down to word. Aauuummmm. Before even light. How could what you say not be so? If I recall, there's a creation chapter in the Nag Hammadi gospels that refers to the original sound as well. Vibrations.