Apech

Spoil sport!

I completely agree with most of what you are saying here. However I think all understanding is interpretive (hermeneutic) and so it is possible to examine reality through the lens of say yin/yang or the Wuxing and gain understanding. I think the claims about siddhis ... levitation and so on are not worth focussing on for most of us ... they are fascinating of course but believing in them is a waste of time which brings no benefit ... it is better to focus on the idea that it is possible to develop higher/deeper levels of understanding of self and reality through spiritual practices... and from there just follow the path and see where it takes you. I find science, particularly cutting edge stuff quite inspiring ... but it is good on 'how' but not good on 'why'.

I like to listen to David Icke. I don't buy everything he says but some of what he says is enough to start me thinking about things in ways i didn't before.

I think maybe the confusion comes when people mix up the idea of men and women (real complex beings) and male and female polarity e.g. yang and yin. I don't see how here on a Taoist discussion board we can say that yin/yang is not a valid polarity - provided we understand it. But what for instance the I Ching points to is that 'old yang' ... that is very or completely yang and old yin are unstable and signify a condition which is about to change. Whereas young yin/yang is a stable condition which while being either yin or yang holds the opposite (complementary) within it. The worst excesses of a patriarchy would be old yang ... and because of inherent instability bound to be temporary (although temporary might mean historically long period).

Woody Allen quote. Not sure why this came to mind. Maybe because if you are a bee its one sting and you've buzzed your last.

Not be ... wasp.

A lot of languages have two verbs for 'to be' (unlike English) and there is a distinction between being as such ... and being as in becoming, acting or doing something and so on. In Portuguese there is 'estar' and 'ser' ... and I know that German has two such verbs. In Ancient Egyptian there is 'wnn' and 'khepri'. Both can be translated as 'being' ,,, but 'wnn' includes being as a passive state ... like when you say 'it just is' ... where as 'khepri' has meaning related to 'appearing, forming, transforming, becoming'. So maybe ... and I'm just suggesting here ... when you are 'pure being' then you are stressing existence as such without any defined function appart from that it just is. But if you posit an observing consciousness then if this 'is' then it is in the other sense of having a function or form as 'an observer'. ?

Sexual depravity in penguins They need to remake that march of the penguins film. Sex with an ex is one thing ... but sex with an ex-ex!

Ok I admit I didn't read it all .. it was a long post.

My ears pricked up and I started bouncing around at the mention of rabbits.

Not sure I want to go back to a matriarchy any more than I want to stick with a patriarchy. There's a reason that one replaced the other to do with the evolution of consciousness. How about the rise of the non-dual, the person who can be male while holding to the female (and visa versa). True individuals who balance male and female within themselves and go beyond duality?

While I am sure you a right that some people use this stuff for financial gain and are thus suspect ... I think there is an underlying principle that we all affect each other by our thoughts and intentions. The way i think about it is that if you think that it is beneficial to wish people well (e.g. tonglen) the it is equally possible for the opposite ... to wish people unwell or something negative ... and for this to have an effect. I don't think this is always curses as such but simply the kind of detritus of human interaction ... you lick up a lot of stuff as you go through life ... soem good ... some not good. And you can end up carrying around a lot of baggage of negative associations and feeling. Just my thoughts.

The thread was not locked to prevent discussion of John Chang. It was not locked because of the idea of scientific testing of such powers. It was locked because bickering, insults and ad hominem attacks. Please feel free to carry on.

Excellent news. are you still getting pain?

I like the hyenas.

Maybe if you don't see - it isn't a problem. Good luck with your research.

There are a variety of feelings which I associate with qi. Tingling, a bubbly feeling, heat, sometimes cold, shiver, goosebumps, pressure ... as well as mental/emotional changes which correlate. I developed sensitivity to this over a number of years meditating and qi gong. How would I know what the EMF of the earth and my blood feels like? How would I know this was a real effect? I would have to imagine that this is so ... and I avoid these kinds of theories. Same with oxidative phosphorylation ... how would my nervous system pick that up? I don't know .. so how can I answer your questions? Its like people who claim they are tapping into dark energy or black holes or whatever ... how do they know that is what they are doing? they don't but they like to imagine it might be so. If they could demonstrate some kind of causative mechanism between themselves and a black hole I would begin to have some confidence in their assertions ... but until then I think its just the power of imagination. You need to test a number of practitioners and measure changes in metabolism to look for patterns. Then maybe start to develop a theory ... providing you observe some thing consistent. I still think you will face the chicken and egg problem. But maybe that doesn't matter too much.

I see what you are saying but I'm not sure about the word 'crutch'... I'm not particularly religious in the usual sense and yet I use the term qi because of my own awareness. Its a term for something. You might be right in that this term is not well understood and sometimes people use it as a way to stop thinking about what is happening. People should keep thinking and exploring what is happening IMO. One slight problem is that the qi effects if you want to call them that do not seem to operate well if you try to analyse too much. Your mind can inhibit qi as much as you can stimulate it. But aside from that I hope you are able to see into these processes further.

@informer Ah I see where you are coming from. I sense a slight chicken and egg argument may arise. Say you test qi gong practitioners with an MRI scanner on their brain activity during practice. (I think this has been done for meditators). Then you observe a statistically significant raised activity in certain brain centres. The participants subjectively assess this as qi flow. Ok. So you would still have two hypotheses. 1) there is something called qi which stimulates brain activity (or is linked/triggered by brain activity) or 2 ) people experience the sensation of qi when the brain is stimulated by some mechanism or other. You need to design an experiment which can only be explained if qi exists ... i.e. is real and not a subjective sensation. ?

Yes goosebumps, tingling, heat, cold etc. physical effects from qi I think that's normal. Why do you think it 'comes from the brain" ... maybe the brain is involved as a trigger but I don't see qi as coming in waves from the brain.

Don't see a problem with your idea. People have to use computers to access the board so anything that helps them with this is tech support I guess. Go ahead ... its great that you are willing to help other users! A.

*** Moderator Message *** We have received a number of reports on this thread along the lines that one poster challenging another's point of view, scientific qualifications or the legitimacy of their point of view amounts to trolling or somehow breaches the moderation rules and guidelines. Since this thread is about scientific approach to practice then questioning around this subject is allowed. If the conversation is reduced to bickering that derails the thread, deliberate hijacking or trading insults then we will take action to deal with this. We are not prepared to silence a poster for simply holding a non-consensus view as long as the arguments are respectfully and politely made. *** Apech for Mod Team ***

At the moment I am just an Apple iDunno. You could measure the effect but then they would dispute the mechanism by which that effect is caused I suppose.

Two basic rules of life are 1) never go back 2 ) never apologise I forgot to add mod privileges to some of the ppfs I set up ... so I, went back and added them, sorry 'bout that. A.