liminal_luke

Some people change their gender; others get really creative with copper wire. Different strokes.

Welcome Lala Nila! I´ve been here for years and often feel reprimanded, so I think it comes with the territory. But there´s a lot of friendship and support to be had too. The thing about the Bums is we´re such a varied group and I think there´s room for most everybody. People have opinions, sometimes strong ones, but we were all beginners once (and some of us are still beginners no matter how long we´ve been here!). Anyway, hope you enjoy your time here.

@Nungali It´s ironic that you´d suggest I get in touch with my assertive warrior side because the only Bum I´ve wanted to tell off lately is...you. Casual readers likely don´t think you´ve said anything worthy of a finger, but somehow you´ve managed to get on my last nerves. I´m tempted to throw my usual policy of maintaining forum decorum out the window and really let you have it. Chances are the mods would suspend me, but would that really be so bad? Everyone is thinking of quitting the board these days anyways. Getting a suspension would be like being stopped by the cops on the highway, only instead of giving you a ticket for speeding they give you a coupon for all-you-can-eat breadsticks at the Olive Garden. Alas, I´m not going to do it. Even though I don´t think you´d be offended; no, you´d probably think it was funny, or worse, congratulate yourself for helping my mental wellbeing. Maybe someday.

I didn´t realize you found that post of mine helpful -- thanks so much for letting me know. Criticism, even when gentle and meant constructively, is very rarely useful because most people are unable to take it in. Most of us, myself very much included, are sensitive and our defensives immediately go up if we get a whiff of criticism. So I think it says something commendable about your character that you´re able to process feedback. I agree that telling someone to "pull their head out of their ass" isn´t interpersonally useful. Especially on the board where, for the most part, we don´t know each other in person. But I agree with Taomeow that it can be useful to say as a matter of maintaining self-respect. There have been a few times over the years where I´ve felt mistreated by my fellow Bums. Looking back, I wish that I´d stuck up for myself more forcefully. I might have felt better if I´d told a few people to pull their heads out of the asses. That phrase wouldn´t of helped our relationships, but it might have helped me. I remember a fight I got into in eighth grade. A schoolmate of mine was constantly bullying me and I felt terrible about it, but didn´t want to fight. Finally I got up my nerve and punched him one day. Back at home, I remember looking at my face in the mirror. I had a busted up lip and looked like I´d taken a beating, but I felt great. I´d finally sent a message that I couldn´t be pushed around without consequence. I was a worthy human being who deserved to be treated with dignity. It´s a lesson I´m still learning some fifty years later.

Well put. I think giving people the finger occasionally can help maintain self-respect. God knows, many people deserve it. It´s a forceful way of saying NO, and sometimes saying no is exactly what a situation calls for. While it´s true that I mostly refrain from criticizing other Bums, I´d like to point out that I´m not one to keep the peace at all costs. I´ve been quite vocal about expressing my political views (back when we still had a Current Event section) even when I knew that doing so would cost me socially.

That´s a good question to ponder. @Nungali has recently implied that I´m overly concerned with my popularity, or at least that´s the conclusion I took away from reading some of his recent posts. Personality-wise, it´s true that I tend to shy away from interpersonal conflict. Would I be better off giving more fingers? Some would say yes. I´m remembering an incident that took place at a celebratory lunch after my brother graduated with medical school. One of my uncle´s explained that he was late because he´d just come back from giving a speech about the unmitigated drivel that is all of alternative medicine. A doctor himself, my uncle was employed by a chemical company to defend all sorts of toxic corporate shenanigans. He made no secret of his contempt for homeopathy, chinese medicine, pretty much all the healing modalities I believed in. Anyway, I sat through that lunch listening to him express all sorts of opinions I disagreed with -- and yet I said nothing. My sister-in-laws mother later took me to task: why didn´t I stick up for my point of view? In retrospect, do I regret not defending my beliefs? I don´t. The event was to celebrate my brother´s accomplishment and I didn´t want to take away from that. I also knew that there was no way I was going to change my uncle´s mind -- so why try. Still, I do think there are plenty of occasions where assertiveness, even giving the finger, is the best move. It´s good, I think, to have finger giving in one´s behavioral repetoire. You´re a tiger Taomeow. (Nungali, something of a honey badger.) I´m somewhat less ferocious but who knows? I may get my growl on yet.

According to marriage researcher John Gottman, successful couples have at least five positive interactions for every negative one. I suspect this ratio applies to our experiences as forum participants as well. Bums that routinely come away from their experience here feeling unsupported, unseen, and unheard are likely headed for a divorce; enough divorces and goodbye forum. And so I´m trying to master the delicate art of expressing healthy disagreement on occasion without giving my fellow Bums the finger, to find the balance between milquetoast Mr. Nice Guy and Mortal Combat. It´s a work in progress.

I think it´s supposed to be the "ninja" emoji. I use it humorously to express secrecy. Like if I hint that something might be true but don´t want to come right out and say it outright. But I´m no emoji expert. That´s just my interpretation.

No worries. I believe I understood your post. You are an astute observer of human interaction. A cantankerous, and provocation-loving observer but also astute. Credit where it´s due.

Ya think? That´s a relief!

That´s quite the list. I don´t want to argue about the accuracy of any of your assertions, but would like to point out the "gotcha" flavor of your post. It´s as if you´re saying "you say you shouldn´t hold beliefs about meditations but I found all of these beliefs so you must be a hypocrite." Is that the message you meant to convey? Few people respond well when backed into a rhetorical corner. Instead they throw up our hands, roll their eyes, send face palm emojis. Marriage counselers sometimes ask their clients a pointed question: do you want to be right or do you want to get along? You likely aren´t interested in marriage with Apech or Taomeow (a mutual feeling, I´m sure) but you might want to cultivate good relationships. Speaking for myself, I know that each of them has worlds of experience in meditation and spiritual practice. They have much to teach me.

My take? The face palm is an expression of exasperation. We´ve all had the experience of being misunderstood, of having our words taken out of context or twisted, of being verbally hurt. Sometimes when this happens the best way to come back to center is to express exasperation, and the face-palm emoji is a way of doing that online.

They say not to use meditation to deal with out-of-whack emotions, but this thread is weirdly full of conflict between Bums I like -- surely a little deep breathing couldn´t hurt?

Forum rules have recently changed to outlaw argument about "current events." Argument about meditation is still allowed, B"H.

Should you undertake that noble task, you´ll have one faithful reader in me.

My mom, like many health-conscious people, has tried to meditate. She thinks of meditation as one of those things a person has to do to live a long healthy life, something akin to eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, etc. But meditation never seems to go right for her. She doesn´t enjoy it and can´t "quiet her mind." Should I tell her that nobody can quiet their mind -- at least not for many months/years -- and that quieting her mind isn´t really the point? If she actually wanted to meditate that´s what I would say but she doesn´t. My mom wants to knit, to paint, to play scrabble, to go on walks with friends. I think she´s doing just fine without meditation.

Willoughby Britton founded Cheetah House (Cheetah House | Help for Meditators In Distress) to help people who have been harmed by intensive meditation. While meditation practice has no doubt helped many, it´s not without risks.

I learned meditation from Master Chia´s outfit, what used to be called The Healing Dao. His meditations are a lot more active than the usual Buddhist types. The meditator is doing things inside the body -- moving energy, gathering elemental forces, setting up a cauldron, etc. There´s space for yin sitting as well, but also a more yang, active phase. (Not everybody likes Chia, so I´m not recommending his work so much as explaining what I´ve learned.)

I suspect that Buddhist forms of meditation, as well as more modern split-offs like mindfulness, are vastly different from some traditional forms of Taoist meditation. It´s possible that the Buddhist forms are indeed useful for shifting emotional states; the Taoist forms less so.

You know that image that can be either a witch or a young lady depending on how your eyes interpret the shapes? An empty personality (or bank account) is kinda like that -- refocus a little and suddenly everything´s gone to infinity.

@BigSkyDiamond That scene sounds right out of a movie. I´d say you won the "pissing contest."

Mantak Chia gives instructions for genital weight lifting in one of his books. Years ago I took a genital weight lifting workshop from one of Mantak Chia´s students. It was great. A+

A story told on the Tim Ferris podcast (interview with Elizabeth Gilbert) about a conversation at the Omega Institute. Woman 1: Have you got a job yet? Woman 2: No, I´ve been really busy being non-dual.

If meditation means samadhi or a feeling of oneness or dropping the sense of self, count me out of this discussion. When those things happen to me on the regular, I´ll let you know. But if meditation means sitting on a cushion and attempting to just be, then yeah, I can speak to that. Most of us, me very much included, have things about ourselves that are back of mind, things maybe we don´t like to think about so much. Like maybe the very ordinary but still real trauma of growing up with parents who didn´t know how to give us what we needed when we were five. That´s the kind of stuff I don´t think about very much -- unless I´m sitting on a cushion and attempting to "just be." In that meditation context, all the BS that was in the back of my mind moves to the front. Oops! I know meditation isn´t supposed to be therapy, exactly, but I do think that getting to know the hidden parts of myself better is therapeutic. It´s relaxing. All that stuffed away ordinary trauma can tighten my muscles and constrict my breath. When I become conscious of it and let the associated feelings run their course, my body relaxes. This feels good. Perhaps none of this has anything to do with real purpose of meditation in a formal or technical sense, but this has been my experience.

Should it? I´m not sure but think this is a great question for discussion. Do you have any perspective on this, @stirling? My own experience is that meditation is definitely not fun. I´ve sat for several vipassana retreats and each experience was worthwhile but decidedly not fun. Sometimes I experienced physical discomfort, often I experienced emotional discomfort. There was plenty of joy too but it mostly appeared after I´d faced difficulty. On the other hand, I think there´s great value in gentleness. I´m something of a Type A personality, always wanting to do more and perform, and I bring these traits to my spiritual practice, not always a good thing. I could probably stand to be more compassionate with myself and stop meditating when it gets hard. Or maybe not???