freeform

14 hours ago, Zacison said:

Also, shamelessly tagging @freeform for any insight you may have - you've always seemed like a cool older brother here, and I've greatly admired your posts over the years - I would appreciate your advice.  

How dare you!

 

Only joking

 

Happy to help if I can.

 

When you say “armchair practitioner” what do you mean? 

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

work hard and sacrifice, don’t demand others who did to do it for you.

Hard work is probably the saving grace of these arts… it creates humility… so does training at a good martial arts school!

2 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

What do you care freeform?

I don’t really care  

 

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Why would you even respond like you did to this person?

Because sometimes a little kindness can help turn a trajectory of one’s life around.

 

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It's easy to intuitively know where a person is coming from, especially having been there yourself. 

Are you saying you’ve been there yourself?

 

And if you met this younger, more disempowered version of yourself - would you show him kindness or derision?

4 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

This person doesn't seem like they are inquiring about that...they seem to want power over other people, or the power to do something else to someone else or something that they currently do not possess.  Such desires are child's play without a larger context. 

Sounds just like your dreaded “let’s understand” mindset to me!… or at least it’s slightly self-centred cousin “I already understand”.

I think it’s unfair to be derisive of young people that talk like this!

 

People only ever seek power in this direct way when they’re really hurting in some way. 
 

Whether they lack control over themselves… or feel they don’t have some place in society… or have a difficult home situation… issues with self esteem, etc.

 

Power seems like an antidote to all of this.

 

Of course it’s not - but it seems like it  

 

@I will become immortal 😠 There are different forms of power. Maybe you can investigate it within yourself - what sort of power do you want? 
 

Or put another way - say you get power, what would having this power achieve that’s even more important than the power itself? (Not a rhetorical question - would be interesting to hear).

 

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with building strength and power over yourself…

 

If, however, you feel you want power over others, you’ll find that this road leads eventually to a kind of inner hell realm - not a fun situation…

 

However if you develop INNER  strength, confidence and competence, you’ll find that people naturally respect you for that - without you needing to control them in any way… and your journey on earth will be more interesting to boot.

 

But there are no shortcuts. Just coz there’s esoteric methods for this in Daoism and other traditions, it doesn’t mean it’s easy… in fact in reality it’s a more difficult path than what @Jadespear suggests - which is becoming very good at a highly valued profession.

Worth repeating… Its far easier to become a respected dr, architect, lawyer, software developer etc… than to get anywhere with internal training.

 

Breathing a certain way a few times won’t do much to be honest… it’ll require much more of you than that  

1 hour ago, dino said:

https://alineageofdragons.com/videos.html

 one day i try to do slow form and i was thinking about body first or hands and i wanted to film this video to learn ...

i feel when i do it from the center more power comes ,i dont know

 

 

Ahh ok, thanks.

 

I’m not sure exactly how Steve teaches his stuff, but from my perspective I’d suggest working a lot more on using the kwa and using standing practices to get your body to knit together into a single unit.

 

At the moment your body is working as lots of separate parts. (This is the case for almost everyone who hasn’t trained by the way!)

 

This might not be the way Steve does things though - so he’d certainly be the best person to ask.

 

Me personally, I think that being able to sink and connect the body is what’s most important at the beginning for pretty much any internal practice.

 

Anyway - welcome to the forum! Glad you figured out how to get it all working  

On 04/12/2022 at 6:41 PM, dino said:

 

i glue a straw on my body so you can see the movement.
when i do number3 body then hands (my hands are like robot hands i dont move them,body is moving them)i get more tired like it"s harder.
so was wondering does it makes any diffrence or it is all in my head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_oFL5JXLKM

Who are you learning from?  

19 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I am confused by your definition of Neidan, as I am pretty sure it’s impossible to separate internal alchemy from spiritual growth and call it a ‘technology.’

 

For example, fusing the Refined Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi to form the elixir is alchemical and definitely spiritual.

 

Going from Earth immortal to spiritual immortal, that is still Neidan in my definition. Most definitely a spiritual process. Not to mention Spiritual Immortal to Heavenly Immortal 

 

 

Alchemy is just a word… NeiDan is just a concept…

 

The methods we use are just methods.

 

Very clever, sophisticated methods - but still they’re methods. They are invariably limited in some way or another. They’re kind of like training wheels.

 

You'll see that real progress comes not just after you’ve mastered the method… but after you no longer need a method.

 

We do all sorts of stuff with our breathing, our posture, our mental focus just to sink the qi… but once the qi can sink, all those methods are largely irrelevant… in fact over-focusing on the method itself will stop you from being able to sink the qi!

 

So when I say that the process itself is not spiritual or sacred - this is what I mean.

 

Of course being disciplined, rigorous and thorough in your practice is important - but you’ll start to notice that once the transformation starts occurring by itself, you realise that the practice was just the proverbial finger pointing at the moon… 

 

What I think @Wilhelm is saying is that we’re all just barely evolved apes having our best go at stealing fire from the gods… 

 

The methods, stories, theories and so on are very special… but they’re just the scribblings of some other barely evolved apes that actually managed to steal fire from the gods - and they left a barely perceptible breadcrumb down the path they walked.

 

All these different levels of spiritual, heavenly, earthly immortality, all these semi-mythological histories for these practices - they’re all just attempting to classify the unclassifiable. 
 

So worshiping these scribblings, barely perceptible breadcrumbs and so on is silly. I mean they’re important… but what’s more important is your own practice, your own evolution.

 

I rarely talk in much depth about immortality and all that sort of stuff. I mention what I’ve been taught or what I’ve read - but that’s all just speculation - way off in the distance, where I’m looking is right here - what am I actually doing, what’s going on with my own practice… 

 

Enthusiasm is great - but as we continue walking down the path we realise that yesterdays certainties must fall away for us to grow. 
 

[edit] What all this is pointing to is humility. That’s the underlying quality that Daoism is famous for but is largely lost. You get humbled over and over and over as you walk the path - and it’s either a pleasant process of letting go into freedom - or it’s a process where your most treasured aspects are ripped away from you… Humility is what makes the difference.

22 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

especially if you plan to sit for three hour periods and practice jhana.

Curiously in my experience it’s the teachers who emphasise Jhanna would insist on sitting cross legged.

 

7 hours ago, cherrydao said:

But right now I want to learn the qigong.

I recommend Damo - though his stuff goes a little deeper than Qigong.

 

Maybe start with one of his books and see if it resonates. He also has free videos on youtube.

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. it does because it is a cultivation just not an energetic one as the modern marketers pretend it is but a moral one.

Yes agreed that it’s not an energetic method of cultivation… 

 

But to me, reading the DDJ as a manual for governing people is not correct. But I’m no expert  

12 hours ago, Barnaby said:

I finally got around to watching that Guru Viking interview with Damo Mitchell. Is what you say here in line with his "hacking" take on alchemy? That the power is necessary to drive a process of transformation that is ultimately spiritual in nature?

Yes - the ‘hacking’ thing makes sense.

 

The process itself is not sacred or spiritual - it’s just a technology… Just as a statue of the medicine Buddha is just a statue  

 

But yes - the aim is most definitely spiritual.

 

 

9 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

 

I was discussing this concept with a friend of mine who isn't into cultivation and I couldn't give him a straight answer as to how those on the path are meant to avoid falling into this trap.

 

What exactly is it that provides someone with the strength or fortitude to not fall for these tests and get 'corrupted'?

 

Clearly one should have developed their precepts to a high level, but what exactly does that entail, and the other hand ideally have a high degree of samadhi, but I have also heard of highly skilled meditators falling for such traps. The greater the light, the stronger the darkness.

 

So what gives?

 

Your master and peers can't always be holding your hand and looking out for you when these tests come. 

 

Severe and frequent self-analysis of one's behaviors, actions, and intentions? Continuous work in developing the four boundless qualities? I suppose the answer itself is highly individual, based on whichever poisons one has a proclivity towards

 

Excellent question... Thanks for asking.

 

It's a big topic, right?

 

There are several major turning points in the path that can lead one astray.

 

Beyond a certain point it's not necessary to have teachers and precepts or any other external ways of checking your behaviour. But I'm not there yet

 

So what I do is as you say - self-analysis - a lot of it. Understanding inner motivations for behaviours and attitudes. Being quite ruthless in my self-assessment. But I wouldn't recommend this for most people in the beginning - it's not a pretty sight internally!

 

What I would suggest is developing an attitude of gratitude and doing benevolent actions... being of service... taking on responsibility for the betterment of something for someone else - all while maintaining selflessness (even if it feels a bit fake).

 

Do notice that part of you that strives for recognition or praise - but don't be too self critical. Don't beat yourself up if you find your motivations aren't as benevolent as you'd like... things will shift of their own accord. Just guard your words and actions - especially when they influence others. Always aim to be kind and generous (through strength - not weakness).

On 25/11/2022 at 10:05 PM, Barnaby said:

Yeah, I guess my question really is: what is that power for?

 

On a more trivial level, it reminds me of how I lost interest in the martial arts. It started to feel like everyone was seeking mastery either as an antidote to fear and insecurity, or for the power that mastery would confer, or some combination of the two.

 

You know, I see these videos of qi emissions (real? fake?), and it's just like: what's the point?

 

Really good questions

 

Power is one of those sticky subjects - like sex and money

 

Much of the base drives of a human are based around the endeavour of building power.

 

But here's the thing... You can build power out of fear - as a self defence mechanism. Because as someone more powerful, you can hold a higher rank in your tribe, have access to more sexual partners, more calories, opportunities, respects and social standing etc... But all of this is an attempt to plug a basic underlying fear... that we're not enough... that we're finite... that we're gonna die... 

 

But you can also build power not as a way to plug fear - but as a tool for growth. 

 

Power is simply necessary for the methods to work. They require a lot of power - that's it

 

As a basic example - the more 'powerful' your qi, the denser it becomes... it becomes so dense that to your mind the movement of qi is as solid and real as your physical body.

 

If your mind is distracted, it can still become aware of your hand at a moments notice - because it's right there - physical, solid... so it should be the same with Qi or the dantien for example... if you have to take time to quieten your mind, slow your breath, do an hr of qigong and slowly tune your awareness into your subtle, ephemeral dantien - well then you haven't built enough power  

 

Later the actual 'wattage' of power is necessary for performing various conversions in your 'cauldron' - like a fusion reactor - huge amounts of power are necessary to change one substance into another.

 

I personally think that one of the main reason people don't get very far in the internal arts is because they never built enough power.

 

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You know, I see these videos of qi emissions (real? fake?), and it's just like: what's the point?

 

Very good example.

 

Yes these Qi emissions CAN be real (though the vast majority are fake). This sort of qi emission becomes possible when you have built enough power (at a certain level). Yes it's tested for in my own school too - but only as a test for having developed enough dantien power in the early/intermediate stages - it is not developed beyond that like it is in other schools. We don't train the ability to issue qi to a high level - and this sort of method isn't even considered a good healing method... it just looks flashy and supernatural - which gets people excited.

 

The world of qi emission is a weird one.

 

I've come across some of the well known masters and their students in that area of the internal arts world. Let's just say I would (and did) steer well clear. There's some genuine skill there... but skill and cultivation are two different things for me. I don't want to talk bad about people that have worked hard to develop such a high level of skill - but it's 100% not my thing at all. 

 

Money, influence, trickery and dodgy arrangements are all intertwined in that world. Even the teachers that can genuinely fa qi will often fake things for convenience, money and clout.

 

If spiritual cultivation is the aim - this is one of the big pitfalls that I'm glad I avoided. 

 

Power motivated by fear will always corrupt.

On 26/11/2022 at 6:46 AM, Taoist Texts said:

the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. 

DDJ3

 

With a little jostling this sounds very much like a method of cultivation, doesn't it

 

Emptying minds and filling bellies...

On 25/11/2022 at 8:30 PM, markern said:

 

How modern do you think it is?

 

I'm not a good person to ask! 'Relatively' modern haha. 

Basically I disagree that it's thousands of years old... I think it's more modern than the DDJ.

 

Of course it gets even more woolly once you introduce the question "What is Nei Dan"... because just like most arts it has gone through many evolutions (and devolutions) - at what point was it the 'most authentic'? 

 

It's not of particular interest to me really - but I would say that it's been developed after the Buddha... after the DDJ... Of course there are aspects of Neidan that are rooted in pre-history... but the most crucial aspects of the methods are not from that era  

24 minutes ago, dwai said:

one works with the mind and direct apperception, the other works on preparing the body and/or mind - indirect, before starting the direct path.

I’m not really familiar with non-dual tantra - but with Neidan, in my own experience, it’s a little different.

 

Of course we prepare the body and mind at an early stage - but in reality that part of the process is known as Yang Sheng Fa… not alchemy… stuff like diet, qigong, regulating emotions, mental skill and so on fall into this category. This isn’t considered alchemy - and can be used independently for leading a healthy life or improving whatever your chosen endeavour is.

 

The crux of the alchemical method is to generate the Elixir by working with the substances that underpin consciousness…

 

Thats why Qi is so important… it’s the basic substance at the base of all manifestations.

 

Every state of consciousness is considered to have some form of substance… not just physical substance - it can be energetic or even more subtle still - but it’s still a substance from an alchemical pov.

 

Mindfulness has a substance… Samadhi has a substance… fear has a substance… realisation has a substance.

 

We’re not preparing the body/mind/energy for some other method like insight… using the substances is the alchemical method.
 

In alchemy, Insight is a byproduct (just as some internal tantric/alchemical process may happen as a byproduct of insight in some traditions). 

 

Alchemy is not preparatory.

 

In fact the DDJ process (for some teachers) is part of what’s known as ‘the middle vehicle’ for alchemical cultivation… so in effect it is considered as an early or intermediate level of preparation for Neidan.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

According my teachers, the “governing” part was not part of the original teachings, but got bolted on later by someone else. DDJ is a complete and self-contained means of attaining Realization.  Nothing more is needed if one can understand and follow what it is pointing to. 

The ‘people’ are aspects of the heart-mind.

 

The governing is happening internally. 
 

When read in this way, it’s clearly a method of inner cultivation…

 

(Neidan is quite different to the DDJ method though)

28 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Could I ask what it is that you found so inspiring? 

It’s not easy to explain - because there are two sides to it.

 

The internal arts build a lot of power - and it takes great strength and spiritual insight to wield power without it affecting your nature and feeding the darker aspects of self.

 

Ive seen countless ‘masters’ who got corrupted. One of my friends got corrupted in this way too. It’s extremely common in these arts!

 

We think we’re good people. But often, we’re only good people because we’ve never had this possibility. 
 

When presented with riches, status and sex, most of us are only too happy to step on people to get these things.
 

What inspired me is seeing how my teacher and his seniors not only had incredible skill, could generate genuine power, but also not be corrupted by it at all - instead they were very much the exact opposite, kind, creative, genuine, without a shred of self-importance or selfishness. Not false humility and a mock-spiritual veneer for show - but genuine humbleness - and a genuine appreciation of everything.

 

And I t’s always the difficulties in life that really let you see someone’s true colours. This is the other side of the equation.

 

I was never good with stressful situations or difficulties in life. I’d get really overwhelmed when things aren’t going smoothly - and I wasn’t a very nice person to be around.

 

One of my friends at the school was involved in a terrible car accident. It was catastrophic - he lost everything - not just the use of his body, but his livelihood and ability to support his family. He went from very healthy, strong, capable - and pretty successful at his job - to losing all of that. No future in the internal arts, no future in his career, no bright future for his family.
 

Yet I think I suffered far more as an observer than he ever did.

He literally just accepted the situation fully - never feeling sorry for himself, never losing his humour or kind nature. 
 

I was seriously distraught. It was such a big shock to me.

 

But my teacher? He was also unbothered! At first it felt as if he didn’t care - but he did, he would visit the hospital every day for treatment in the beginning. But he never made a big deal of what had happened.

 

My friends level of recovery over the years is also a huge inspiration - but not as much as his attitude at that time.

 

Being a good person in the face of difficulty… being morally upright in the face of corrupting influences - that’s what I found most inspiring.
 

The incredible level of skill and dedication was also cool though  

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

exactly. and quite brutally too!

Interesting.

 

To me that’s a surface reading of the DDJ…

 

With the DDJ, what you’re governing is not a state outside, but your state inside. 

 

But to you, I’m probably reading into it something that it is not… 

 

But it’s ok to disagree  

22 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

There was an ancient era prior to written history where Neidan existed.

From off the cuff discussions with wiser people than me, what I understand is that at an earlier age, we simply didn’t need tantric methods at all… humans were already almost perfected - and access to spiritual enlightenment/immortality was far easier.

 

But to me this is all speculation that doesn’t make much of a difference.

 

I don’t have a romantic notion of the ancient times (or the notion that modern humans are somehow superior!)

 

I don’t really mind where it came from, what the root is… whether it’s Confucian or Buddhist or Daoist or Lizardmen in origin… I just see who my teacher and his seniors have become as a result of using these methods - and I got very inspired by that.

 

These days I don’t even feel inspired to get anywhere with these arts. I feel a sense of duty to keep them alive as a practitioner… but I don’t care about them that much.

I mean people in my life would disagree coz they see me practicing for 4hrs a day… But what’s driving the practice isn’t some idealised state I want to achieve… nothing could be more ideal than what already is… it’s something else - and I don’t have the words for it yet…

 

 

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

DDJ is a manual for governing a bronze age state.

You mean like governing a country/people?

9 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

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they just come from the same root (Yi Jing).

this is not. but still all good.

Say more?

 

That was totally just my opinion - so I’m very open to having my mind changed  

7 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Interesting how the DDJ approach is differentiated from Alchemy.  I had thought some pieces of alchemy were present in the DDJ, but that it hadn't been systematized yet.

 

Makes me wonder how much (edit: tantra/energy work, not alchemy) is necessary for the Buddhist approach?  🤔

Alchemy, I believe is actually relatively more modern than most people seem to think… 

 

The DDJ path is an older one. It is said that the end result of DDJ and Neidan are quite different… 

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Have you read the text?  

Dude - his name is literally Taoist Texts! How could he not have!