Cleansox

On 2021-07-23 at 11:14 AM, Nuralshamal said:

 

It would be a pity if the comments to your thread was only critiqal, especially since much of it reflects my experience as well. 

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When I have gone to train with different qigong masters, most of the other students are elderly, sickly, physically somewhat weak and the vast majority are women.

Therefore the qigong training is more gentle, pleasant and relaxing. 

However, I've recently come to realize, that this is not how these qigong masters themselves trained.

When you're young, fit, healthy and strong, qigong is not nice, pleasant and relaxing. It's brutal!

When these teachers built their own "foundation", it's usually through long, very physically difficult standing meditation.

This is my experience as well. 

 

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Furthermore, it's through merciless continued breath holding.

 

Although I would disagree about this one. 

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The "jing to qi" stage of course does contain the "transformation" of semen into energy.

Using "semen" here, while possible, tend to raise objections. For example, can't women practice and get result? 

 

And, can a beginner reverse manifest semen to qi without actually loosing a lot of energy in the process? 

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However, another meaning is simply that you go from "jing" (simply meaning the physical body) and to qi (the energetic body).

This is done through starting out with grueling physical work, standing and perfect physical aligments.

When you've then mastered all this, and can stand for a minimum of 10-15 minutes, you continue your standing practice until you reach 1 hour.

Then your physical body is strong, your legs are strong, your jing (understood as physical body) becomes strong.

To now take your awareness and development from mere physical training, or the jing level, you need to advance your awareness and training to the qi level. This is done through breathing.

Absolutely. 

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As you stand in the posture, you continually hold your breath again and again in the exercise. As breath is related to qi, holding your breath activates your qi. 

The combination of standing for long times in particular postures with merciless continued breath holding activates and builds your qi.

Standing and relaxed breathing is enough, or reverse breath. 

I tried holding and other forceful methods when I started out, it enhances the sensation of Qi, but I felt it took away my chance to develop from what the specific stance had to offer. 

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You'll get warm and start sweating like crazy.

Yes, but that will happen with natural breathing as well. 

I used to wrap a towel around me, and I had to wipe the floor after practice. 

That passed, and was long before the practice did any serious work on the Qi level. 

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After becoming accustomed to this, your jing (physical body) will be strong from long standing, and you'll have more qi than a regular person (built through continued breath holding).

The last part not necessary... 

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After doing this for a longer period, you'll start to become aware of your own qi. Firstly inside your body, then the meridians, then the organs. Later, outside your body, in the environment, around other people, animals, trees etc.

Absolutely. 

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I just realized that this is not really taught or emphasized with most teachers, because the majority of people coming are sick and elderly. They could never do this kind of training. Therefore the more gentle exercises are taught, for building and circulating the qi, clearing blockages and acheiving gentle healing and relaxation.

Yes, the teacher adjust the practice according to the target population. 

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2) Different systems and how they emphasize the body and the energy, jing and qi
Why does most qigong alchemy systems have this progression? From the physical body, to the qi? 

This is because if you focus too much on building the higher centres, the upper dan tien, you can actually deplete your physical energy, and thereby potentially your health.

Therefore qigong systems have the idea of "overflow". You build an "abundance" of physical energy, and then you naturally let the energy overflow by itself. When the middle dan tien is then full, this overflow continues into the upper dan tien. After all dan tiens are full your development continues in spectacular ways; physical health, emotional well-being, peace of mind.

Post heaven refinement, very good for the three mentioned above. 

6 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

@freeform it's because it's actually one of the secret, key ingredients to internal alchemy.
 

Breath stopping, perhaps, as a natural reaction to practice. 

Breath hold, probably not. 

 

There are lists of things not to do (in the Chinese tradition),I'm sure breath holding is on it. 

 

Edit:

I just saw that you in the first post called it "qigong alchemy", a term I am not familiar with, so.... 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

i find this stuff fascinating - I just don’t have the skill to explain it in an easy to understand, elegant way

I recommend avoidance mode 😁

28 minutes ago, Bindi said:

How would you describe true yin (note - this is not a yes/no question  )

Note how I go in to avoidance mode when such a direct question pops up 😁

Well, it answered the question 😁

 

But ok, true yin + true yang +true intention makes marvellous result. 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

Another question, does the concept of true yang within yin (and true yin within yang) have anything to do with Yang Shen? 

Yes. 

2 hours ago, salaam123 said:

Thanks! What I meant was just contracting the perineum muscle, I didn't mean pressing the perineum with fingers. Do you mean both? Does the semen still go to the bladder?

See it like this, the mind takes damage when we build up an impulse and then inhibit it. 

 

That is a major component in the theory that the neuropsychological thread Taomeow started is based on, prediction theory and active inference. 

 

Any one might interpret behavioural inhibition as "power" in the beginning, but (relevant to the sexual context) its a fuckup in the end. 

 

Point being, one doesn't have to go to a holistic asian system to get the idea that semen retention is a doubtful practice, there are modern neuropsychological theories that support that idea as well. 

 

Or, just don't.... 

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.  

There are many methods leading to Nei Dan, and any practitioner tend to have the fault of using ones own practice as a standard when comparing, and so do I. 

 

Looking at the fusion practices:

 

Is it a good idea to allow the five to become three to become one? 

Yes! 

 

Would I do that by mentally create bagwas and mentally suck energy to them from the Organs? 

No. 

 

Is it a good idea to work on the Dai Mai? 

Yes! 

 

Would I do that as described by Chia? 

No. 

 

Is it a good idea to work with the energies of the eight trigrams? 

Yes! 

 

Would I circulate them in my MCO at the speed of light by speed chanting the names of the trigrams? 

No. 

 

Would I create an energetic body above my head and try to transfer my consciousness to it? 

No. 

 

On 2021-03-30 at 11:55 AM, Antares said:

 It does not matter sitting, standing, reversing, jumping until it based on post-heaven Qi which is Yin in nature.

/... ... /

 

Everything that is based on postheaven is Yin in nature and dispels Yang.  

I quit following this discussion because I felt it became a dead-end, and then I see that you got right back on track! 

 

If we are talking textual support, the Wuzhen Pian (the regulated verses) clearly is the base for what you wrote, and from the view of the southern lineage, post heaven energetics in it self doesn't lead to celestial immortality. 

 

So, good post! 

I tried in my ppd. 

I have to leave a dot., can't leave a total blank post, if I tried that, all deleted text was restored by the editor. 

Is this the same as you are describing @Earl Grey? 

There are a bunch of old nei dan threads on this forum that should have ^ as a final post. 

1 hour ago, Romeo said:

so I should transmute it before It becomes sexual energy.

Yes, the idea of first manifesting energy to a lower level and then trying to get it back is sort of a waste of, well, energy. 

1 hour ago, Romeo said:

I was thinking about being sexually active, so I think that chia's stuff would be the best.

I'm married, the one doesn't exclude the other. Unless you want to have copious amounts of sex. 

1 hour ago, Romeo said:

You said that the price tag was higher than what you got out of it. Can you explain that to me, please?

Naaah. Just keep doing that Chia stuff, it might work better for you than for me. 

1 hour ago, Romeo said:

Oh, ok. Do you think doing cold draw would be a good way to transmute sexual energy? 

No. Because you want to transmute it before it becomes sexual energy. 

But if you are in to Chia's stuff: Why not? Better than the hot draw. 

1 hour ago, Romeo said:

Also, if I wanted to be sexually active and not release my seeds, would doing tantra be a good idea?

Depends on your goal. 

Do you want to be able to have huge amounts of sex? 

Then yes (Chia's version). 

BTDT. 

 

Or, if you refer to the methods that latched on the tantric wave, I don't know. Haven't practiced that. 

 

But again, it depends on your goals and which prize you are willing to pay to reach them. 

Again, BTDT, price tag was higher that what I got out of it. 

5 hours ago, Romeo said:

Are the nonsexual methods meditation and deep breathing?

Meditation, breathing, movements, static positions. 

5 hours ago, Romeo said:

 How do people actually move the energy throughout their bodies? Do they just use their mind to direct the flow of energy?

Intent, lack of intent, movements, static positions, spontaneously. 

Let me count the ways... 😁 

6 hours ago, Romeo said:

 

 Also, Is there any good way to remove blockages from your body? 

Non-sexual methods. 

Since the non-ejaculatory methods are based on (forceful) behavioural inhibition, and behavioural inhibition cause blockages,... ... . 

40 minutes ago, A2345B said:

Thanks @Iskote  @Cleansox @forestofemptiness

 

Is cultivating Jing a necessity for cultivating chi ? or is that only in Neidan ?

It helps even if one is just practicing basic qigong. 

40 minutes ago, A2345B said:

 

 @Iskote All the cultivators I have heard about have a minimum of a decade of cultivation behind them.

Usually one lay the foundation before doing Nei Dan proper. 

40 minutes ago, A2345B said:

 

Will Zhan Zhuang open my channels ? Mainly the channels on the feet and hands ?

Depends on the position, the teaching, and the student. But yes, long time standing will open and activate a lot of things. 

And you can focus on just one position, or have a smorgasbord of them, again depending on teacher and student. 

40 minutes ago, A2345B said:

 but Ive read people saying there isnt much neidan cultivation in it, 

This is a hard one. 

To some, "nei dan" is a generic term for any transformative method. 

For others, Nei Dan is considered a more specific method of practice. 

There has been some argument about this in the past. 

40 minutes ago, A2345B said:

 Does the Qi get stored in the ren and du channels or in a dantien ? 

That depends. Again. 

Some claim that in order to store qi in the LDT, it has do be developed properly. 

Some say that one circulates qi in the Du + Ren, but if one don’t do that but let them develop naturally, they will accumulate and the difference between them will create an arc discharge, as seen on the Nei Jing Tu. 

40 minutes ago, A2345B said:

OR have I read too many books and should stop now ?

Reading is good. 

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Happiness is in the eye of the beholder,

🤣🤭

On 2021-05-21 at 1:35 PM, A2345B said:

What programs would you recommend ?

@forestofemptiness is right, if your goal is Nei Dan then starting from within an organisation that claim to teach it will be time efficient.

 

Unfortunately, @Iskotehas a point as well. A long history of Nei Dan has left us with a wide array of practices, leading to different places.

I hope you find a practice that leads you to where you want to go! 

35 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

Who knows the happy ending could change.

I believe that the point of the thread was how to not have a "happy ending". 

 

But a happy ending is better than happeh theory 😁

Poster size? 

You could always buy a poster....

 

Or maybe not. 

I bought a nei jing tu full-size printed on cloth poster from China years ago. 

A waste of money, one needs a photograph of the original. 

 

Don't know if it is the same with the xzt. 

@pitisukha

 

Mikael Ikivesi made a translation in 2009, diagram of cultivating perfection. 

Try Google that. 

47 pages of joy, page three is the entire chart image. 

 

There is also a document, "Hsiu-chen Tu" author inknown, that have some nice images in it. 

 

Catherine Despeux "Taoism and Self Knowledge", I believe it can be bought as a pdf. Great book! 

 

Damo Mitchell's book White moon on the mountain peak also have it. 

14 minutes ago, A2345B said:

Thanks! From what ive read, one of the first things is to be able to feel the Qi. Is there any exercise sets for that ?

More or less any qigong set. 

24 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Methinks it depends on whether you see neidan as going against nature or going against something that went against nature. 

 

There's options.  Cultivation goals are transcendent but what it is one is planning to transcend is the cat's meow of it. 

Some just get stuck in the Void. 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Human-made systems and nature-made systems don't seem to be on the same page though.  

   

Compare common meditative experiences with common dissociative symptoms. Scary, really. 

 

But a Xian is a transcendent, and Nei Dan reverses the course of Nature. 

 

"Natural" isn't compatible with this. 

8 hours ago, Toni said:

Hey

 

And what is taoism?

 

Do we know what is this philosophy called daoism?

Well, during the last few millennia, groups of people loosely speaking about the Dao have published a severe amount of books and images containing philosophical and practical guides for posterity. 

A small amount of that is translated into european languages, and some of the basic elements, like yin and yang, do seem to have made it into a vague common knowledge in western societies as well.