senseless virtue

13 minutes ago, salaam123 said:

Strangely, I feel more drained after ejaculation than retaining, even though it could be thought, that it does not matter since the semen goes to waste (to the bladder with retaining) anyway. 

To retain, or not to retain, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely,
The pangs of dispised Love, the Law’s delay,
The insolence of Office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment,
With this regard their Currents turn awry,
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.

1 hour ago, salaam123 said:

Thanks! What I meant was just contracting the perineum muscle, I didn't mean pressing the perineum with fingers. Do you mean both? Does the semen still go to the bladder?

Let's keep it simple. If your pee-pee's piping is blocked, regardless of how, then the oozing male essence will remain inside and flow into the nearest available drain hole, i.e. the bladder. I don't think the testes would accept any refunds either for what they were happy to do away with. 

1 hour ago, zerostao said:

Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its life believing it is stupid.

—Albert Einstein 

This thread is off to a good start. Good work everyone, I really appreciate your input!

Why was I motivated to start this thread?

Many years ago I was much less tolerant than I am these days, and this especially applied to some of others' opinions that I held to be stupid or ill-founded. What changed? I learned from my own mistakes that everyone is processing something and in this regard I am no different even if I happened to entertain a provably superior position. The worst would be if it lead to anger or stubborn pride. In contrast, respecting others' free will and journey to wisdom gives me an opportunity to become aware and correct my own flaws of impatience and ignorance, which I have come to see as the most healing attitude in most situations. It increases good faith and gives real safe space to others to realize there is no personal gain to win through verbal exchanges.

These days I think that it's not any particular opinion that matters as much as having good and polite questions to ask and real calmness to support if it leads to dialogue. Then we can actually discuss and learn instead of bickering or arguing.

Let's put the previous observation in another way: Even if I managed to convince some people to change their opinion on a topic, this isn't by itself wisdom giving or encouraging them to act better in all circumstances. I would call it good discussion and excellent resolution if I can demonstrate and subtly impart the skills to keeping clarity and compassion which people may apply everywhere. Whether we parted ways with conflicting opinions is of no consequence here; what matters is that there was learning and growth as human beings.

Just now, ralis said:

Latest CDC COVID-19 map. Recent spikes are primarily in ant-vaccine communities. How long will it take for people to wake up!

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view

Sorry ralis, but I was hoping that this thread would be a meta discussion without going into any particular topic detail like this.

Covid19 is already featured in many topics around TDB and I don't see why this should be another platform for it.

On 7/12/2021 at 3:27 AM, Bindi said:

Does this include the recent controls and regulations limiting covid conspiracy theories on social media? 

It sure does. People don't see the critical issues behind the Covid19 conspiracies, so the situation escalates. At heart it's about alienation where people losing their faith in health care professionals and academics. In my opinion, it's probably got to do with how the increasingly prominent business and corporate side of modern medicine feels less humane and caring. People seek medicine to be tended and cared as persons, not to be fleeced and taken advantage of as money bags.

On 7/12/2021 at 4:24 AM, liminal_luke said:

Outside the garden, there are people who are sarcastic or hostile or maybe just wilfully misinformed.

What does that tell you about the society in general then?

Quote

Many aren´t interested or capable of participating in the kind of botanical discussion an experienced gardener might yearn for. In these circumstances, trying to have a conversation that welcomes all voices, as good as that sounds, is an exercise in futility.  Such conversations needlessly amplify negativity  -- and who needs that?  Wiser to move inside the garden walls.

What made people lose their respect for professionals?

I feel it's very unfortunate for the Western discussion culture that there are more and more instances of divisive topics on which the strongly opinionated supporters, whether pro or contra, ask for heavy-handed control or regulation of dissident speech. I really hope that everyone is having a blast in their safe spaces and walled gardens, I really do.

19 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I’m tempted to go back and forth here and intuitively worry I’m getting insecure and frustrated/defending my sense of self.

however I’m a bit confused by your perceptions. Thich Nhat Hanh, my first Buddhist teacher, defined bodhicitta as the mind of love. I suppose absolute bodhicitta is an unconditional love/longing to nourish and benefit all beings. However relative bodhicitta as I understand it is about willing yourself through compassionate intent to towards loving thought, speech, and conduct, whether it comes totally natural or not. (I learned about the distinction btwn the two In Chogyam Trungpa’s aforementioned treatise on the Mahayana.) I’m not sure how that’s not orienting oneself constantly and gently towards the heart/mind?

There are subtleties in the matter, and I'm not a learned Dharma proponent.

Bodhichitta is intrinsic to the Buddhanature itself: it never decreases or increases, but our familiarity with it may become clouded. Bodhichitta's relative expressions may indeed take some mind particular mental states, but these are mindfulness and calming meditation practices then.

Constant meditation, even if gentle, supposes a stable enough mind that can endure the process without aggravating any issues, whether emotional or energetic. If this is indeed a problem you are having, then you need to seek help how to get healthier and more stable first. — I'm saying this with all empathy and respect because I started with similar sounding issues myself. It's very important to have the basic understanding correct and ground yourself emotionally.

Quote

im always open to correcting myself, but feeling misunderstood is an emotional trigger for me, and due to the extreme uniqueness and unorthodox nature of my path total acceptance and understanding is hard to come by, even from very advanced practicioners.

🤷🏼‍♂️ 🙏🏼

I don't know about advanced practice, but I understand that you want to have things in your own way.

Room for learning starts with the admission that we really don't know much and are prone to err, doesn't it? That's at least what I have had to admit perpetually.

I'll now bow out of the discussion because I don't really have clear idea how I could be of further benefit to you. I'm still a student myself, so I remain cautious about the possibility of slipping ignorant advice.

I meant Bodhichitta from the usual doctrinal and application perspective, which means having awareness and aspiration to help all sentient beings.

29 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Im quite sure that residing/dwelling in bodhicitta is a superb path exclusively. However, as my energetic tendencies are currently construed I sometimes rest in heart/mind and other times investigate phenomena/truth/teachings in the a curious and hopefully innocent intention and fashion. If i tried to forcibly/over exert my mind towards dwelling in the heart i suspect it would around unbalanced agitation in me.

Hmm. This... is not Bodhichitta. Or at least it seems that there is something very peculiar or uncommon in how you apply it.

There is the concept of four immeasurables (loving-kindness, compassion, empathic joy, and tranquility) that are taken as meditation objects. These, like Bodhichitta, have no meditative reference point of dwelling in the "heart" in any general sense.

As for forcibly dwelling on anything or exertion while meditating: always a bad idea. I suspect that there is something fundamentally wrong in how you have approach meditation in the past, but maybe today also. Maybe you could benefit to have a long discussion with some friendly senior practitioner or meditation teacher in order to clear up whatever misconceptions you might have about the basic practice.

Quote

Maybe we are missing each other here or I'm misunderstanding your point? Regardless i think i might need to take your implied advice to heart and do my best to turn my mind towards tranquility now rather than analysis. My tendency is to be quite fixated on one subject/area of concentration at a time as I have OCD. Feel free to clarify what you meant, and I'll try to find the right balance.

I can only give a general advice: relax, find inner peace through simplicity, and try to appreciate that you don't have to know. The process of Enlightenment is about shedding illusions in the end.

@TranquilTurmoil Mahayana is a truly wide subject to study. Bodhichitta is a core tenet which should have come up already, and I'm quite certain that without Bodhichitta constantly used as a reference point this type of analysis will not lead to satisfying conclusions. Many of your questions could already be answered from the Bodhichitta perspective decisively, such as individual vs. universal liberation you referred to in different terms.

Mahayana is often intellectualized and turned into cute philosophical discussions for the sake of introducing the topic. This does great injustice to the actual practice, which is all about discovering the natural awareness of the compassionate heart.

The key to all Mahayana practice is developing Bodhichitta which is the unconditional desire to help and benefit others through the lenses of wisdom. Real unconditional love comes about when our lives turn inside out from the usual ego-centrism to an unshackled expression of wanting everyone to be happy instead of seeking personal fulfillment and stimulation head on.

The ordinary pain and pleasure originate from clinging to the fragile and limited self-view which can't transcend the ravages of time and eventual death because it associates with the physical body. Hence it's sometimes said in the Mahayana view that pain and pleasure are the same: It's the result of the false self that the sentient beings in samsara cultivate, and realizing Enlightenment is about familiarizing genuine and lasting happiness through Bodhichitta.

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I have thrown patience and forbearance to the wind in the last month or two.

What are you wishing to accomplish by this move?

I don't know what your long term goals are, but this is my experience: Much of the skill of stillness is dependent on actualizing and perfecting the life or patience and forbearance, both on the meditation cushion and in everyday life. Attempting shortcuts leads to stagnation and misfortune.

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I’m wondering if I’m fine just using it without grasping the fine print?

No problem with that.

Quote

Or if there is great benefit in studying things like nuclear trigrams, and a million other things I don’t know about or understand?

Yes. For example, the Bagua trigrams are a very useful general concept for understanding Chinese philosophy nuances in various uses, but it takes time and exposure to develop the intuition how they might be used and what do they signify in each context.

Quote

I don’t feel inclined at the moment to dive into intellectual analysis unless I can be persuaded that I’m missing something.

It's good to be able to trust one's own gut instinct. It will make more sense later if you develop the desire to learn the subtle details.

1 hour ago, hierundjetzt said:

Could somebody please direct me to a web site where i can purchase the Gift of Tao DVDs? I cannot seem to find it. Thanks

Ask them about the DVDs directly.

From what I can tell, you would need to become a member to buy or receive them.

https://stillnessmovement.com/learn/

It seems that they have removed DVD sales from public circulation, so that it doesn't get peddled around by uncommitted people. Michael Lomax has previously written that he would prefer people to send back the DVDs if they don't really practice the art he teaches.

1 hour ago, dawn90 said:

I started feeling vibrations in the body as I was doing it.

An exercise I'm not going to bore you with explaining.

But I did feel something.

Tread carefully. It's not a good idea to invent your own practices.

Chasing experiences and feeling into sensations is a easy way to get into psychotic mind states gradually and without noticing what is happening. I know people who have done so and now intake anti-psychotic medication as a consequence.

7 hours ago, dawn90 said:

What would be the best way to activate the third eye

Why would you want to activate the third eye in the first place?

4 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

Are there any instructors who were taught by him who are well-known?

This site is an offshoot from Michael Winn's discussion forum or something like that. Mr. Winn was the most marketed US instructor of Chia's teachings in the past.

39 minutes ago, Capeador1 said:

symptoms have improved, they have not disappeared, but certainly if they have improved, I have been doing a breathing exercise known as Win Hoff

Nice that you have improved.

Wim Hoff method is a very active breath control exercise. In my humble opinion, you would had been better off not doing it or anything like that. Energy, breathing, and mind easily influence each other. How could you attain proper calmness if you kept doing all types of stimulating activity?

I have given what advice I can and wish you good future pursuits. It's your choice what you want to learn and practice.

Quoting Freeform on Mantak Chia teachings:

On 8/31/2019 at 3:40 PM, freeform said:

Unfortunately Chia is known to have got it wrong - badly wrong. Sadly what Chia teaches has caused many problems for people. Sometimes severe problems. He took practices completely out of context, misunderstood them and changed them and then marketed them to the west. 

 

It’s not your fault for believing him. He makes a pretty compelling case. And it’s true that initially you do get an increase in perceived energy when practicing celibacy - so of course it all seems legitimate.

 

But unfortunately it’s not. And I know that it’s destroyed people’s lives.

About "semen retention" practices by Chia (and other fake teachers):

On 9/13/2020 at 11:04 AM, freeform said:

Yes - both.

 

Chia says ejaculation only. (The truth would be inconvenient for book sales)

 

The most damaging thing though is this pushing of sexualised Qi up to the head and heart. This creates a deviation called Poison Fire.

The damage starts from the ‘heat’ being pushed up to the heart and head (they need to be cooled - not heated for balance). Over time this causes mental issues - like over the top emotional reactivity or paranoia.

One of Chia’s top teachers was arrested after breaking into his own car at a police impound lot, retrieving a samurai sword and then going to a strip club to threaten a bouncer that had stopped him touching the strippers.

 

The full name of the deviation is something like ‘Poison Fire Taints the Heart’... this is when Qi that has been charged with lust from the ‘base’ water of the body, is pushed up and then taints the purity of the heart.

This is followed by a constant amping up of sexual deviancy... the feelings of love and joy become tainted by lust - so now one can only get pleasure from life through acting out of lusty desires.

 

This basically means an obsession with sex overtakes ones life. Very often this idea of lust tainting something pure is acted out through various deviant behaviours. Think ‘spiritual’ sex cults, dominating people, abusing minors etc.

 

This is quite a common and known issue in Asia. It’s happened obviously with Chia’s material - but there have been many others who developed ‘systems’ that can get them laid.

There are even some pretty old texts with similar methods that are known among the internal arts community to be early deviant paths - or even written for titillation rather than actual practice. Modern teachers take this stuff and show it as evidence that their ‘spiritual bj practice’ is most definitely legit...

 

Then there’s Chia’s ‘Million Dollar Point’ - basically pressing hard on the tubes at the perineum that would normally lead sperm out - but by pressing and shutting this tube, it leads the sperm into the bladder at the moment of ejaculation.

 

A few years of daily use of this point can irreversibly damage ones piping. After some time, sperm just starts to naturally enter the bladder - whether one is pressing the point or even engaging in sexual activity...

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Buddhist is more likely to concentrate in the upper part.  It is probably to facilitate the change in consciousness, which is important in the process of enlightenment.

Can you give any more tangible examples of Buddhist practices that concentrate on "the upper part of the body"?

I'm also wondering how familiar you are with different types of Buddhist practice. Do you have much experience in them?

I am partly asking these because I find your assessment of Buddhist practice kind of simplistic and missing the point.

Mahayana Buddhism at least is very particular about that the heart is the seat of awareness (emptiness) and that the calmness of heart is the foundation for successful meditation. Buddhism has a lot of different preliminary practices and trainable preconditions that are meant for opening the heartspace, starting from the Noble Eightfold Path that culminates into Samadhi and ranging to Tibetan Buddhism which offers an entire genre of these, Ngöndro. Some Buddhist practices utilize visualizations, which are a valid example of Shen stimulating methods in terms of Daoist philosophy, but such either are advanced methods or they utilize Enlightened blessings that transform the energies through the heart-centric awareness by design.

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Consciousness is a mind function and is brain related.  The theory that the Pineal Gland being the third eye also happens to be in the head region. 

 

I will have to disagree. Consciousness relates more to Daoist methods and Theravada Buddhism's Jhana trances because these traditions want to cultivate consciousness essentially. Mahayana Buddhism is about awareness, and there is a distinct emphasis there about disregarding the strange phenomena of consciousness to support the familiarization with the plain and ordinary awareness.

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I have browsed through books of Mantak Chia.  It doesn't seem bad to me.  In fact some of the materials are good.  But you need be know something before spotting them.   However it would not be prudent to only follow the books to practise.  There are too many intricacies.

I feel that @Cleansox @freeform can comment better, but the general consensus that I've understood is that Mantak Chia has often appropriated genuine Neidan sources in a copy-paste fashion and without understanding or experiencing how the genuine Neidan transformations happen through non-action and stillness. The original Neidan texts were meant as road maps in that process, not as practical instruction manuals.

57 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

By the way what is so notorious about him?

A tree is known by its fruits!

13 hours ago, Master Logray said:

It is why Taoist alchemy normally starts from lower Dantian in the belly region, comparing with Buddhist or Yogi who more often put the concentration in the head region like the crown chakra, third eye, eye brow or top of the head and so on.

Rest of your post was good, but what does naming the "Buddhist" mean in this context? It's unclear, but it seems as if you are implying that the Buddhist meditation is more likely to put concentration or emphasis on the upper part of the body somehow. Are you perhaps meaning particular traditions that might follow the breath as the initial calmness meditation step, or what?

15 hours ago, Sudhamma said:

what was described by Capeador1 was typical of qi-stagnation in the head caused by over-focusing of qi attempting to cross over baiweique, the meeting of hundred pressure point.

You are again brazenly trying to pin a certain diagnosis on someone you haven't met in person and without being a qualified medical practitioner yourself.

15 hours ago, Sudhamma said:

My experience gives me the confidence of stating my assumption and also the solution to the problem.

Ditto. Experience doesn't give qualification or competence if it lacks proper learning and penetrating wisdom.

15 hours ago, Sudhamma said:

Of course, it is up to Capeador 1 to confirm whether my assumption is correct and if incorrect, then my solution is also simply not valid.

You play the guessing game on a public forum, and then you try to bait another person, no less than an inexperienced beginner defrauded by a notorious teacher, to bear the responsibility for the correctness of the solution based on answering quite arbitrary general criteria in the manner of this phrase: "Which of the two options feels more likely to have affected your condition: your head or your breath?"

Do you understand that you could be put under a trial in real life for trying to offer medical advice in the similar manner and that your advice could already be interpreted as such?

Wake up! Compassion is good, but without wisdom complementing it you are putting yourself and others at risk.

31 minutes ago, Sudhamma said:

What theories have I propose?

These three:

On 7/2/2021 at 9:52 AM, Sudhamma said:

MCO (both micro and macro) is an essential qi-development technique to clear blockages and qi flow to the 8 extraordinary meridians.

MCO is one of the most misunderstood meditation phenomena, which many charlatan teachers try to market as a Qigong technique. Thus your statement is pure theoretical conjecture based on hearsay, in my opinion.

On 7/2/2021 at 9:52 AM, Sudhamma said:

But from what I read of your posting, perhaps your breathing is not in sync with your mental intent during mco causing a qi stagnation in your head.

Offering health advice to anyone is not a guessing game about the causes of symptoms.

On 7/2/2021 at 9:52 AM, Sudhamma said:

Somehow either you lost concentration or too much forcing of qi-flow into your head during your practice.

It's highly unethical to diagnose people without seeing them in person and without having a proper medical training.

32 minutes ago, Creation said:

This is definitely not the case with Damo Mitchell's methods, his (non-marial) neigong/dantian building and IMA body transformation/fajin methods are perfectly compatible.   His school is not geared toward training fighters though, I'm sure optimizing for fighting ability has its own subtleties of training order and emphasis.  

If you train Neigong with intensity, then you are pretty much using all your energy to restore the physical tissue and to enhance the jing aspect for alchemy.

If you train Neidan with intensity, then you convert nearly all the conveniently available jing to generate energy in the Dantian at the first stage.

These two modes can certainly be incompatible because they use the human being's spiritual reserves in opposite ways, thus eating away the progress that was built. There would need to be enough spacing and recovery time if they were used in tandem, and much of the details would depend on the actual training program and its intensity.

38 minutes ago, apdo said:

I said I could start with wiring don't need start with dan Tien as soon as I am progressing I don't need to rush 

I see. The way you first quoted Earl Grey indicated that you now asked about the Dantian training. But nevertheless, Earl gave you good advice based on that inquiry.

Sifu Terry's Tao Tan Pai integrates kungfu, certain type of Neigong, and Dantian cultivation. It's a complete internal alchemy program in other words.

Since we talk about Sifu Terry and the Marrow Washing came up earlier, then I must mention about the Flying Phoenix Qigong. Flying Phoenix probably is the closest approximation of Marrow Washing in Qigong form that you could find: It first of all activates the spinal channel and brain, which leads to very meditative states. There is a similar skill in Tibetan Buddhism called Tummo ("Inner Fire").