MIchael80

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

i love naths because they have a very colorful (and at times hilarious)  medieval epic   ‘Gorakh vijaya’ (‘Victory of Gorakṣa’) on their guru. However in that and other indian traditions they do not use the MCO, only the back half of it,  the Kundalini, which is an incomplete MCO. Because they cant complete it, the tongue curls in a spasm of the khechary-mudra. It is actually a deviation. Like any deviation of course it is also a sign of achieving something. 

 the MCO goes through the front teeth, thats where the tip of the tongue should be for the chest and back  halves of the MCO to connect.

 

the dew is supposed to be digested, just in a special way. because its a very;) special thing.

 

Hi! 

Your statement is not true.  Old indian traditions do have the mco (especially the Tamilsiddhas), they call it fire and water channel. 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

As @Shadow_self says - the channel system is the extension of consciousness into the body…

 

The 10 Heavenly stems and 12 Earthly branches describe the interplay between body and mind. (Though most think it’s about astrology )

 

The popular view of Buddhism we get in the west doesn’t reflect the Buddhism I saw in the East - at least when it comes to actual cultivation (rather than religious tradition).

 

Some of the strongest and most forceful body cultivation methods I’ve seen come from various Buddhist lines… Daoist methods are far more gentle and nuanced.

Hi! 😊

Could you describe some of this interplay with regards to the 10 heavenly stems and 12 earthly branches? 

13 hours ago, freeform said:

As far as I understand yeah…  

Hi Freeform! 😊

I was taught in different lineages that "rainbow body" (meaning the physical form completly disolves into light)is the highest attainment.

Only in some very ancient daoist traditions there was one higher level....that was that the practitioner could decide the time WHEN to disolve the physical body....and with rainbow body they could not decide when

, just that it disolves.  They called that "completing the dao". 

Both said that disolving the physical body is a sign that all karma is disolved and that is why it is so rare.

So what would be a higher attainment than that? 

1 hour ago, awaken said:

 

There are some videos, but I don't recommend you to watch them
Because the last thing that spontaneous work needs is imitation and learning.

How to start? 

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yup agreed with all points...

 

But there's more to this...

 

To my teachers these things you mention certainly matter. But they are not so significant if they remain only in the mind.

 

Another words, you can't claim to have mastered them if they remain purely on the level of the mind. This is the case with most genuine Daoist Neidan teachers.

 

Everything you mention in that list is conditional... meaning that if conditions are just so, most people can exhibit them... 

 

That's why for most classical Daoist teachers these mental signs do not signify true transformation... good signs, certainly - but not true transformation.

 

True accomplishment of these things always has a physical or physiological change associated with it.

 

For example:

 

There's literally a physiological sign that this is truly the case. My teacher physically checks for this. (Sadly I'm yet to pass the test!)

 

I may feel this is the case for me... but sadly the sign is not there yet - so by definition, I don't quite have it yet... maybe I've moved in the right direction - but it's not fully attained.

 

When you have it, it literally extends to the very physical makeup of your body and the functioning of your nervous system - when you don't have it... or haven't attained it completely - it remains on a mental level... maybe a very deep mental level - but just not deep enough (for my teacher).

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So just a caveat. You've mentioned your stance on this Dwai - and I think it's helpful to most readers to mention my own stance on this...

 

But I'm not going to enter into an argument over it.

 

This is simply the view of any genuine Neidan master I've met, it's also one that I've adopted because I see its veracity.

I know your view is different, Dwai. You have some great reasons for your view - and I accept that this is a view you hold strongly.

 

Steve asked about the physically verifiable signs of transformation - this is what I'm interested in discussing more... not the validity of my view or of your competing view. We've already discussed that ad nauseam... so I'll be opting out of that particular line of discourse  

 

 

Hi freeform! 

Are you allowed to talk about such tests and physical signs? 

Find that a hugely interesting subject! 

😊

8 hours ago, Creation said:

 

The people I talk to that speak of a realization "beyond" the realization of consciousness are not talking about a "thing", level, or stratum of reality beyond consciousness. Instead, it is a realization that consciousness is not beyond, outside of, or in any way prior to the rest of experience, but is dependently originated just like everything else. Even more ironically, they say that this realization is what makes the experience of pure consciousness (pure knowingness/beingness) spontaneously present in all experience, rather than something you must withdraw into. 

Hi creation! 

Well i would not call that beyond consciousness...as it is, as you described so well the recognition that this pure consciousness is always there and no withdrawing is needed. (Before that realization withdrawing is needed up to a certain point). 

But as this pure consciousness is always present there is a "level " that is prior to that even though it apears as the most fundamental "thing" and at the same time only "thing"that there is.

14 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

It is not clear to me. The title of the link is "states of consciousness" and even the state "beyond consciousness" is described as a "perspective" and an "experience of Reality." These are all within consciousness. 

 

The idea that a state, experience, feeling, or some X beyond consciousness is incoherent. Even if it existed, it would be absolutely unknowable as any knowing or knowledge is consciousness. It would have no relation to consciousness, because any relation is joining or uniting with consciousness. Accordingly, it would be impossible to even consider, think about, discuss, write about, or point to. 

 

If I were being generous, I would say that they may be pointing to subtler and subtler objects of consciousness that are often mistaken for consciousness. For example, the feeling of presence, the feeling  I am, the sense of infinite space, etc.  

 

 

You cling to words where they cannot reach. But we have to use them in a conversation, right?

They use "reality" because reality is "bigger" than pure awareness (you seem to use it as unbounded awareness). Maybe you want to listen to the Interview of Joel Richards i posted above (he describes these shifts)

They very clearly state that they do not talk about states of individual consciousness but of shifts in being itself. 

Quote "consciousness is an unbounded field of pure awareness ".

And beyond consciousness is "prior to..etc.etc." 

Your thought process goes into the right direction. 😊 ... it could seem like subtler and subtler forms of awareness and some become these subtler and subtler forms before the beyond shift.

For some who make that shift it feels like a loosing of the enlightenment (unbounded source awareness) as it is ending a paradigm of perception/existence. However once it gets clear the mechanics of how pure unbounded consciousness is created are understood which is quite a revelation.

😊

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Presence and absence are not consciousness, but states of consciousness. From a Vedantic POV, consciousness is not a state, but is common to all states (much as being is not a thing but is common to all things). Accordingly, when you type "the absence of it is very strange at first" means that it was arising in consciousness. 

 

This is the problem with non-traditional teachers. They only have their own experience to draw upon, whereas established traditions have the collective experiences of thousands of high level practitioners. 

 

 

Sigh.... 😔

In that quote i used presence and awareness as synonymous.... but you are right presence is not pure consciousness. 

I thought i made that clear that i , and the teachers i quoted (most come from a tradition) talk about beyond consciousness...beyond that basic fundamental consciousness which as you stated is "common to all states and things".

https://www.lucialorn.net/states-of-consciousness

This talkes about that....from presence to pure consciousness to beyond. 

I had already posted that. 

On 26.2.2022 at 11:39 PM, dwai said:

All the references to scripture I’ve seen are also misunderstood/mistranslated. Read Ramana Maharishi’s response to this “turiyatita” business — he explains it as simply the recognition that turiya is not the “fourth” state but the ever-present consciousness in all experiences. 

This absence of knowing is an intermediate state, and is nirvikalpa samadhi. It is a precursor to sahaja samadhi, which is not in an absent mind, but rather a non-grasping, non-agitated mind. In fact, we go into this absence state every night in deep sleep. Only difference is, “ordinary” people don’t retain awareness of this absence (of objects) as their awareness is covers by tamas. 
 

BTW, FWIW, I’ve spent many months in that “absence” state — where I was completely aware in deep sleep, only there were no objects present - only presence. This presence continues through waking, dreaming and deep sleep. It’s hard to describe what that deep sleep is like - but seems like you’ve been there too, based on your description. This state became natural and I stopped paying any special attention/consideration to it. 

It’s not a matter of me knowing “better” — I’ve seen way too much “mystification” of the process and of “enlightenment” itself, so this is my way to help people  (anyone who cares to heed my words) to investigate for themselves. I didn’t ridicule anyone, just find the the premise of “beyond awareness” ludicrous, based on my own realization.
 

Please feel free to ignore this topic if it upsets you. 
 

Hi! 

Somehow missed that answer? 🤔

Anyway.... you say "from your own realization " ... and i say that there is just more than your realization.

You do not read the sources i gave you ... even though the people there explicitly!!!! state that it is beyond absolute awareness/consciousness (not individual)... that is what i do not like! You claim something you have no own realization off and something you do not understand yet are totally resistent to look into it.

And though i do not feel comfortable with saying that... i speak not from book knowledge... i just quote sources from several Teachers because i am a nobody on the Internet. 

I work with one teacher who had also realized that Joel Richards from fulldawncircle. 

Short Interview 

The absence beyond  consciousness is not presence... presence in deep sleep is still presence/pure awareness.  Beyond that there is nothing...literally a no thing ness...it cannot be experienced...because consciousness as the silent source is needed for experience... the absence of it is very strange at first. 

Even that no thing ness is not the end.... it is swallowed by pure divinity... and it is hidden by pure consciousness. 

Has nothing to do with mystification... just that there is more than pure eternal awareness. 

Here a leading by Andrew Hewson from I Am.. through pure awareness  ..beyond it. 

Since you shifted to pure awareness...that leading can take you maybe beyond it. 

It would be wonderful if you could see that for yourself... but since you say that is ridiculous... that could be a block.

😊

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

It might be worth reading this site and contacting them http://kundalinicare.com/features-if-a-kundalini-rising/

A friend of mine knows them, they are excellent. 😊

Thanks for sharing! 😊

Looking forward to more of it. 🙏

.

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Beyond Consciousness or Awareness — I know this has been discussed with varying degrees of intensity and interest here before. 
 

One of the “modern” phenomena associated with “Enlightenment” is the tendency to break down the process into stages and phases. Some suggest various levels of experiences as stages (and here’s my take on them) — 

 

1. Subject-object duality - we can call it the ordinary “unawakened” state
2. The realization that the subject is witness to phenomena (objects) and is apart from the individual self (mind-body complex) - let’s call it the witness state or “awakening” stage 1
3. The realization that objects are appearances in the subject, and are not ultimately real - unreality or illusory nature of objects — let’s call it “awakening” stage 2
4. The realization that there is no reality apart from awareness, and that objects are modifications that arise and dissolve within consciousness/awareness — let’s call this “awakening” stage 3 
5. There is another level suggested, which states that even consciousness/awareness is transcended - it’s proponents call it “full awakening” or “full enlightenment”.

i want to explore this stage 5. To understand the ludicrous nature of this claim, one has to understand what nondual traditions (especially the Hindu traditions, which many of the proponents have claimed to have studied/practiced) mean by Consciousness. Consciousness is the Self-effulgent source and cause for all knowing. Hindu traditions clearly demarcate between “mind” and “consciousness”. This, when reflected in a subtle phenomenon called the “chidabhasa”, results in phenomenal knowing and all experience. This chidabhasa comprises of 4 functions, also called the “antahkarana”, namely - 

• Manas or “mind”, which is a field of objects (thoughts, emotions and feelings). This is what represents in thought forms, what the sensory apparatuses of the human body generate (aka the 5 senses).
• chitta - the storehouse of impressions (memories, and impressions of emotions and feelings left by past experiences)
• buddhi or intellect, which provides the analytical capabilities of an individual
• ahamkara or ego, which appropriates and labels experiences as the individual’s identity

 

This four-part complex is lit up by consciousness, which cannot be objectified. In other words, one cannot ever “know” consciousness as one would know a thought, emotion, feeling or material phenomenon such as a ball or an apple. 
 

In a similar vein, all spiritual experiences are also possible by consciousness or awareness. Any mystical experience, no matter how dramatic, sublime, or ecstatic, is also an experience like any other experience one would have in their normal life. They all depend on consciousness to illuminate their knowing.

 

What is called “mind” in the English language is an unskillful and confused approximate term for this antahkarana. It is also erroneously conflated with  consciousness. So this imprecision in syntax leads to lot of mistakes in understanding if one doesn’t know/understand or use the precise terminology (or its equivalent in another language)  used above. 
 

If all knowing is made possible only by this consciousness (and knowing is in the phenomenal mind), then it is not possible to go beyond consciousness at all. There is no “beyond consciousness” or “beyond awareness” possible. If there is, then it is unconsciousness or unawareness. So how would one know it? If one knows it, that requires consciousness or awareness. So one cannot go beyond awareness, period.
 

This kind of misunderstanding can be easily resolved by taking time to contemplate, and assimilate one’s own experience, and not blindly accepting claims made by attributing to mystical experiences. 

First i would say ... why not ask people who claim that and have stabalized there?

Next is...there are some hints to that unfolding in scriptures, i was shown but forgot where because i am really bad with scriptures. 

It is also not my experience at all that stages are a modern concept. All the old traditions i know have describtion of stages of awakening. 

Next, from the experience here ... i am not stabalized there but was there for a while...because for me it felt like falling out of consciousness and had no reference for it i began searching and found some who where there.

It was very different from breathless samadhi and the awakened "experience " so i needed a frame for it.

And normal awake teachers gave the same answers you write here.

Well you describe excactly what it is ...it is the abscence of knowing....for me it was like a blankness.... and only the contrast to consciousness got it some recognition.

However those that are there say that changes with time .

I have met several of these individuals and they agree on this unfolding... some have been awake for decades and then moved beyond consciousness... but it is seldom. 

If you know everything better maybe write these people that they are deluded and post the response here? 

As my understanding is ridiculed by you. 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

or...water does not fall out of saltwater and neither does  salt fall out of saltwater

Do you know these stages of unfolding? 

Because you are so sure.

And if you know these why is the real/unreal any question as it comes much before? 

In your analogy we could say salt being the individual and water being the pure unbounded awareness. 

With regards to further unfolding....that would be beyond water.

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd put  it more simply by saying one can not fall out of the Self and the Self can not fall out all beings.

Well the actual reality is that for several people it feels like falling out of the Self....some need months of adjustment...at first it is just a blankness. 😊

But to me more important in this context is the real vs. unreal dichotomy.....very basic... is just a perception of reality from a certain stage of awakening. 

20 hours ago, old3bob said:

There is a well known and often used preface type of prayer in Hinduism, namely:

 

"Lead me from the unreal to the real,

Lead me from darkness to light,

Lead me from death to immortality.

Om shanti shanti shanti..."

 

So and for instance one might logically ask where does the "unreal" end & the "real" begin,  and how could an unreal and a real be connected which would make for an incongruent  saying?

(using the graphic example below of the Sacred Yantra - where exactly does an "unreal" and thus separate exist?

 

 

thus how can one reconcile said prayer with schools of non-duality that also use it?

 

Hi! 

As with everything that an awakened being or scripture says it is important where in the divine unfolding that being was (stages of awakening....though i do not like the word stages so much) 

With the first big shift there is a change of self experience from being a mind/body to pure still unbounded consciousness. 

At this point the world appears often like a dream or unreal....like it is covering the real.  (Stage of that prayer)

If you desire (here it means you are open to) further unfolding...at a certain point a unification happens...like pure awareness recognizes itself as form....the real regocnizes itself also as the "unreal " and that duality collapses leading to deep changes in the psyche and body also. 

Ramanas teaching comes from here "the world is not real only Brahman is real,  the world is Brahman. 

Once this unity process completes one moves beyond consciousness....which is rather dramatic at first because it feels like falling out of source (pure awareness) like loosing ones awakening....because what is when there is no basis at all?

After a while pure unbounded consciousness is seen as another layer over the pure source ... but that is beyond this response.

Important is that there are different perspectives in the awakening unfolding...and they have quite distinct realities.

3 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

If true virtue is:

 

 

Then what you should do with the pregnant lady ?

 

 

 

 

It is not what....but from "where" the action comes. 😊

2 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost.~ Buddha AN 10.1

 

Here, the Buddha himself had also stated that virtuous action progressively leads to the foremost, that is enlightenment. This teaching is exemplified by Rajini Menon, who had no Gurus or spiritual masters, and only had adherence to her inner conscience as a moral guide for thought, speech and action.

 

Yes, the Buddha had also advocated a variety of methods like mindfulness practice, vipassana , meditation for people who are inclined to such practices . But that does not take anything from his saying that virtuous behavior is potent enough to lead to the foremost, which is nirvana or enlightenment.

 

  I am also interested in the spiritual and social implication of this teaching as it would mean that atheists and agnostics and those of the LGBTQ spectrum, who  adhere to values and virtuous conduct, are not spiritually degenerate as some theists put them to be.

 

Human beings are not capable of wholesome virtuous behaviour. Only after a good amount of spiritual practices and inner transformation is there a slight dawning of such conduct.

Before,  there is only behaviour based on trauma, karma, social conditioning etc.

7 hours ago, freeform said:

Different traditions work differently - and the Jhannas are interpreted completely differently from one tradition to the next.

 

From the traditions I’ve come across the Jhannas are both meditative states and attainments - in that to ‘attain’ the Jhanna certain permanent transformations occur. These are transformations that are both on the level of consciousness and physical/physiological transformations. Commonly one enters the Jhanna state maaaany times, over a long period of time before one attains that level of Jhanna.

 

What Jhanna means seems quite flexible. The people I’ve come across consider the Jhannas almost impossible to attain. For instance there are only a handful of people on earth at this time who have achieved anything above the 4th Jhanna. Each individual that has attained 4th Jhanna and above is known because they start to resonate within a certain realm that is interconnected. Curiously it’s not only Buddhists that achieve these - there are Daoists, Hindus and Christians too - though they might not call it Jhanna - they’ve attained it.

 

If you read the account of some people online though, they seem to enter and move through all the Jhannas after a weekend workshop.

Hi ! 

Are people who have attained (in the way you spoke about  ) the 4th Jhannas or higher in the public? 

All the best 

Michael 

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Bedeutet das, dass sie drei Methoden lehren?

Ein nördliches, yuxianisches Pai und ein Wuliu-Pai?

They teach 4 methods. 

Yuxian pai 

Wuliu pai northern method and southern method 

Method of the first emperors (only for a few select teachers)

On 16.12.2021 at 7:41 PM, Shadow_self said:

Hello all

 

I am looking for the names of healers who can potentially treat cancer.

 

There is no concern regards location or cost

 

You are welcome to PM me

 

Many thanks!

Dorothy Rowe    of distanceenergywork.com 

Kristin Kirk   of Kristinkirk.com

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

I practice putting on appropriate clothes. 

It's an old trick handed down through generations in my family. 

That is oral tradition! .... you are not allowed to write that down.  😂

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I honestly think when it comes to these major polarities ida and pingala really are talking about the same concept as yin and yang:

 

Ida is on the left side and called the lunar nadi. It is associated with feminine energy, active at night and contain water properties. Pingala is on the right side and is called the solar or the sun nadi. It is associated with masculine energy, active during the day and contains fire properties. 

 

But I fully respect you wanting to come at it from a purely Daoist perspective. I particularly resonate with the daoist descriptions of dantians, jing qi and Shen etc. I just happen to like the Ida/pingala concept to clarify duality. 

The Tamil siddhas have ida and pingala (which is sun and moon) and also the fire and water channel (which is what daoists call the mco) ... both Yin and Yang systems must be worked on. 😊

Preheaven/alchemical mco is different. 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

The emphasis on sitting for long periods sounds right though.
 

Next time I see my Burmese teacher, I will need to be sat for 72hrs in absorption if I’m to continue getting instruction from him. Which is not a problem at this stage.

 

I remember a few months ago on the forum someone reporting of their breakthrough with alchemy… they described the process they used - which sounded completely made up… but then they also explain the sitting in stillness for 12hrs a day for a period of 9 months I think.

 

Which made me laugh because they clearly achieved samadhi as a result of the sitting and despite the made up alchemy process… (though I think the member might have understood their samadhi experience to be some sort of awakening or enlightenment).

72 hours in samadhi!!???? Wow !! 😲😲

My deepest respect! 🙏🙏

Just being in samadhi or "doing" some alchemical work there?

Any idea what instructions you are getting after that? (Just in general)

13 hours ago, chaosbananaman said:

Had a talk with someone really advanced where they mentioned that at high levels of Nei dan, Wai dan actually becomes an integral part of the practice. 

Working with mercury, consumption of metal and minerals. Obviously, this only happens when your body is prepared and you have built up your energetic system to the point that you could go through with it without any detriment to the body. It also happens under strict supervision of the teacher. From my understanding, these metals are charged through the emission of the teacher to cause certain effects in the body of the student who consumes it.  

 

But i was wondering if something like this really is necessary.  Seems a little dumb that i need to consume things to help me achieve new levels in my cultivation. There is also the consideration of just how safe this kind of thing is.

 

I know there are many high level Yoga and Buddhist systems that work with external alchemy as well. Especially with compounds like Mercury. But i always figured that the only thing you really need is you and your body. Any thoughts? 

 

 

Classically these external elixirs were often used by yogis to prolong life and thereby having more time to practice, to ward of disease and to deepen transformation. 

If you use chi it is also external and you bring it into your body through certain practices. 

While one can do a lot of alchemical stuff the original external elixir (wai dan aka philosophers stone) is made from mercury (cinnabar). It can be detoxed and made into something divine.

The metals are not charged (but can be) they are brought through the alchemical process and so they become the golden elixir (aka philosophers stone).

From my experience it very much supports cultivation greatly....gives a strong boost but one should be very careful. 

There are safe ways to use it ... like wearing the white stone around your neck or putting it into water and drinking that water.