Geof Nanto

For those who haven’t seen it, there’s a very comprehensive essay on ming-xing written by Fabrizio Pregadio available here:

http://www.fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

I recommend it as an addition to the recent Dao Bums topic on ming-xing cultivation here. It clarifies key concepts and gives historical context to that whole discussion.  

I’ve started it as a new topic because of the central place ming-xing cultivation occupies in Neidan. For me though, my actual experiences arising from my life and my practice (these are not two) must always be primary. Theory such as this gives language and lineage context for those experiences – and it’s massively helpful on many levels, for sure – but once past beginning stages, I've found it unhelpful to try to emulate the theory rather than allowing my own path to unfold as it will, self-so. In other words, what interests me is my own experience of the illusive inner reality that this theory tries to explain.

I can feel my path leading me somewhere, but where it’s leading is an ever-unfolding mystery. The later sections of Pregadio’s essay have given me some insight into what I'm beginning to feel with his discussion of true and false xing and ming. 

Comments welcome but please read this essay properly first! 

Thank you @ilumairen and @steve for adding those references that include previous posts of mine on shadow. I read them through and am content at this stage to leave my contributions on the subject to what I’ve already said. 

I note that Giles wants to take this discussion away from Jung’s insights into his own experiences. I’m very happy with that as it means I don’t have to contribute!  My growing preference at this late stage of my life is for silence. The more recent posts I've made on this forum are very much at the urging of my inner voice. But I'm increasingly finding it a burden to express myself in words.  

I don’t consider Jung's insights to be convoluted and am happy to let his words speak for themselves for anyone who’s drawn to read them.

5 hours ago, manitou said:

And I agree fully with Michael - love is always trying to break through - the tendency coils higher and higher, despite the minefields.

Yes, that's where emotional work should lead us. I realised a few days ago after writing my long post on the previous page that the OP title is another way of saying love is the path. However the word ‘love’ is such an abused cliché it’s become almost meaningless. It no longer has emotional power. The love I’m referring to is not the tame, domesticated, sentimental opiate that passes for love in contemporary society.

Now I can read the following passage of Jung’s about love and deeply feel it. It resonates with my own hard-won inner experience after decades of alchemical transformation of my own chaotic emotions. Whereas when I first read it about 30 years ago it scarcely registered with me:

At this point the fact forces itself on my attention that beside the field of reflection there is another equally broad if not broader area in which rational understanding and rational modes of representation find scarcely anything they are able to grasp. This is the realm of Eros. In classical times, when such things were properly understood, Eros was considered a god whose divinity  transcended our human limits, and who therefore could neither be comprehended nor represented in anyway. I might, as many before me have attempted to do, venture an approach to this daimon, whose range of activity extends from the endless spaces of the heavens to the dark abysses of hell; but I falter before the task of finding the language which might adequately express the incalculable paradoxes of love, Eros is a kosmogonos, a creator and father-mother of all higher consciousness. I sometimes feel that Paul's words 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love" might well be the first condition of all cognition and the quintessence of divinity itself. Whatever the learned interpretation may be of the sentence "God is love," the words affirm the complexio oppositorum of the Godhead. In my medical experience as well as in my own life I have again and again been faced with the mystery of love, and have never been able to explain what it is. Like Job, I had to 'lay my hand on my mouth. I have spoken once, and I will not answer" (Job 40:4 f .)

Here is the greatest and smallest, the remotest and nearest, the highest and lowest, and we cannot discuss one side of it without also discussing the other. No language is adequate to this paradox. Whatever one can say, no words express the whole. To speak of partial aspects is always too much or too little, for only the whole is meaningful Love "bears all things" and "endures all things" (i Cor. 13:7). These words say all there is to be said; nothing can be added to them. For we are in the deepest sense the victims and the instruments of cosmogonic ‘love.’ I put the word in quotation marks to indicate that I do not use it in its connotations of desiring, preferring, favoring, wishing, and similar feelings, but as something superior to the individual, a unified and undivided whole. Being a part, man cannot grasp the whole. He is at its mercy. He may assent to it, or rebel against it; but he is always caught up by it and enclosed within it. He is dependent upon it and is sustained by it. Love is his light and his darkness, whose end he cannot see. "Love ceases not" whether he speaks with the "tongues of angels," or with scientific exactitude traces the life of the cell down to its uttermost source. Man can try to name love, showering upon it all the names at his command, and still he will involve himself in endless self-deceptions. If he possesses a grain of wisdom, he will lay down his arms and name the unknown by the more unknown, ignotum per ignotius that is, by the name of God. That is a confession of his subjection, his imperfection, and his dependence; but at the same time a testimony to his freedom to choose between truth and error.

[Jung uses the term ’Eros’ in a much broader sense than its usual erotic connotation, as should be obvious from the above quotation. For him it’s the feminine (yin) quality whose essence is psychic relatedness. It’s the great binder and loosener. Its counterpart in Jung’s psychology is Logos, the masculine (yang) quality of objective discrimination.]

22 hours ago, Bindi said:

It was a Western Buddhist and psychotherapist who coined the term spiritual bypassing after noticing this tendency in Western Buddhist groups. I rather like the idea of a grounded Western spirituality made to order for us and our particular Western mind-set, having as it’s starting point the thoroughly Western concept of psychoanalysis or psychotherapy, and going from there. 

I like that. For me what works well is Daoist praxis for my ming cultivation and Jung’s psychological insights for my xing cultivation. 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Effective moderation is almost invisible, it sits beside a stream occasionally pulling out a dubious looking fish and tends the riverbanks to avoid flooding or drought.  It is never supposed to be the subject matter.  As Lao Tsu said 'justice exists because of injustice' and so you could if you wished discuss, dispute and criticise every moderator decision till the cows come home.  But actually maybe we should just accept that they are sincere and doing their best.  People are not banned or suspended lightly - in fact you have to work quite hard to make it happen.  Moderators may say the wrong thing occasionally just as we all do.  So what?  They are volunteers and we owe them our support.  For my part I am just glad that there are a few good people like them willing to do this.  

I agree with all this and have previously mentioned much of it. And yes, there’s been too much focus on the moderators.  I suspect that's because they're a new team, operating under new forum guidelines, and still working out what that means for the forum and for themselves. One of my concerns that I've previously expressed less explicitly  is that they will stress themselves out by being too self-critical and want to resign from staff. I don't want that to happen.  But I also like it that they show this degree of introspection. 

Hopefully, as they feel their way into their roles and we members adjust to the new guidelines, the focus on the moderators will naturally fall away and they will become more an invisible stabilizing presence as per the ideals of classical Daoism you mention.  

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

Let's all just beam positive energy at this place and move on.

"Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The later procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular." ~ C G Jung

(I'd amend the first line to read: Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of much of contemporary spirituality.)

I fully agree agree with your comments about the quality of moderation on this forum but for me the way I engage with discussions such as this one are definitely part of my practice. 

10 hours ago, Apech said:

First a request : please can we have more threads about Early Grey - his banning, his unbanning, his crimes and his innocence - because this is the subject in which we must consume ourselves for all time.

 

Nothing is more fascinating than going round and round the same subject endlessly seeking some kind of eternal and immutable truth.  The moderators must be infallible, like the Pope, and their every decision held up to measure against the universal and undying light of the Logos to see that it is perfect.  This is how we must spend our time, for if we don't, mountains shall crash into the sea and we shall cease to be, eventually.

 

Is not TDBs the very centre of the cosmos and does not the fiery sun revolve around it?  Let us erect the pillars of our certainty, with unshakable resolve, vault the heavens to the welkins infinite breadth and height, so that they may say, these truly are the bums of the Dao.  And no one shall doubt it.

 

I completely disagree with this. For me, the health and psychology of this forum is a worthy subject of our attention. It's something we all can influence with our input and it helps determine the shape of this forum. For me, engaging with it and working through how it I feel about it all is a totally meaningful part of my practice.  To my mind it's far more productive to engage with this sort of discussion about our Dao Bums community than, for instance, countless words on American federal politics. From a practice perspective, that sort of discussion also its place but only in so much as people gain insight into hidden aspects of their own psyche. It can have no meaningful influence on American politics. 

24 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Ps if I remember correctly you are big on Jung right? I am too!

Yes. Along with Daoism, Jung has given me my most valued teachings. I suspect he has special appeal for those of us who have ventured too far into darkness. I have gone as near to death as is possible with still surviving.  That experience, many decades ago,  took a terrible toll on my body but gave me profound spiritual insight. I've needed much Daoist based praxis in order to recover. For that, shiatsu, diet and a qi focused style of yoga have helped me enormously.  One of the best aspects of learning shiatsu was working with a small group of like-minded people under a gifted teacher who I felt a great affinity with. If you can find something like that I'd highly recommend it. I found that level of close contact with people is very healing. 

Although I haven’t commented on it, I’ve closely followed this whole Earl Grey versus staff sage from the beginning. And I haven’t commented because I have no clarity on the rights and wrongs of the situation. Also, I haven’t been involved with, or even read most of the discussions in question. All I can say is that I feel for Earl Grey, he is obviously a dedicated practitioner.  We’ve talked via PM in the past and I like him. But so too do I feel for the difficult role the moderators fulfil in trying to do what’s best for the whole forum. It’s no easy thing being a moderator on this forum. In the past volunteers have been scarce because of the flak they cop. It's largely a thankless role. I’d like to keep this team we have now because they obviously carefully consider their actions. They might not be perfect but they are conscientiously doing the best they can.  If I thought I could do better, I’d volunteer to be on staff. But I know I could never function in that role.  

Edit: I meant to type “staff saga” in the first line not “staff sage.” I feel tempted to leave it as an interesting variation but also feel such ambiguity is not appropriate here. 

Yes, a very unorthodox path. That's why I responded to you because my path, though very different from yours, has also been very unorthodox. Have you considered shiatsu? I recommended it because I found it extremely helpful for grounding my feelings. I've written about it here:

But I know from what you've written that you'll follow your I Ching guidance.  I too have found wise guidance in the I Ching, especially in the earlier years of my practice. I use Cleary's "The Taoist I Ching."

You have my good wishes. 

@TranquilTurmoil

That’s a huge story, Elliot. Thanks for sharing. You obviously have a strong spiritual calling. From what you write I’d recommend getting out of your head and working at a body level. That means leaving aside for now the path of non-doing and meditation. An excellent way to start would be with a shiatsu treatment from a therapist you feel comfortable with. He or she might recommend developing a practice such as traditional qigong, Tai Chi or yoga.  Working this way, over time you’ll find answers to your questions from places that will be revealed to you.

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The question for me though is what might re-establishing emotional flow alongside our mental superpower look like? To my mind if speech caused us to evolve mentally, then there must be a counterbalancing evolution possible for the humble feeling. Once the normal atrophied sense of feeling is restored, what emotional superpower might then be realised? 

A monster unless we individually come to terms with the darkness that lurks within us all. And that’s not something likely to happen in any significant way anytime soon, as these often-quoted words of Jung’s illustrate:

"Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The later procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular." (I'd add: Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of much of contemporary spirituality.)

I’d say the art of amplifying feelings atrophied with the decline of shamanism. They had the ability, that was their science. For instance, they were able to create what the Tibetans call tulpas. (Recently mentioned in another discussion here and in the following few posts. I’d speculate that Alexandra David-Neel’s experience as recounted by Taomeow was the result of her having not come to terms with her shadow. That is, her tulpa was her shadow aspect come to life.) From my reading of history, the amplification of these dark feeling energies was pervasive in shamanism. For instance, they used these projections to do battle with other shamans, to maim and kill. That was certainly the case in Australia with Aboriginal shamans. Afterall we humans are primates with huge tribal and territorial instincts. These are our deepest feelings.

I’ve written about the importance I place on emotions in various discussions scattered throughout this forum, including starting a topic a while back with the title, The Dao of Emotions. It’s an important subject because, to my mind, it’s handled badly by mainstream Daoism and Buddhism. To illustrate this, as is my want, I’ll expand on a quotation from Carl Jung. In “Memories, Dreams, Reflections” he writes about how he handled his almost overwhelming emotional reaction¹ to the deluge of images that welled up from his unconscious:

“I stood helpless before an alien world; everything in it seemed difficult and incomprehensible. I was living in a constant state of tension; often I felt as if gigantic blocks of stone were tumbling down upon me. One thunderstorm followed another…..I was frequently so wrought up that I had to do certain yoga exercises in order to hold my emotions in check. But since it was my purpose to know what was going on within myself, I would do these exercises only until I had calmed myself enough to resume my work with the unconscious. As soon as I had the feeling that I was myself again, I abandoned this restraint upon the emotions and allowed the images and inner voices to speak afresh. The Indian, on the other hand, does yoga exercises in order to obliterate completely the multitude of psychic contents and images.

To the extent that I managed to translate the emotions into images – that is to say, to find the images which were concealed in the emotions – I was inwardly calmed and reassured. Had I left those images hidden in the emotions, I might have been torn to pieces by them. There is a chance that I might have succeeded in splitting them off; but in that case I would inexorably have fallen into a neurosis and so been ultimately destroyed by them anyhow. As a result of my experiment I learned how helpful it can be, from the therapeutic point of view, to find the particular images which lie behind emotions.”

Although my way is not to translate my emotions into images as Jung does, I fully concur with him that the methods of Eastern traditions for dealing with emotions, including the well-known method of just witnessing emotions without engaging with them, while appropriate for anyone who has placed their trust in the guidance of a lineage, are inappropriate for those of us whose disposition is such that fate directs us to find our own individual path. For me, the vital questions are, “What is my psyche trying to tell me with this emotion? What significant content hidden within me does the emotion arise from? Not easy questions to answer because, by definition, its content that’s hidden from me. For that I need appropriate teachings, contact with other people, and a firm ming-xing practice. With those established, I’m still in the process of discovering the profound significance (and difficulty) of exploring the path of my emotions for navigating my way into my own personally appropriate connection with Spirit, with mind of Dao (daoxin 道心 ), or, to use Jung’s term, with Self.

All my life I’ve experienced powerful emotions. At times they tear me apart. Yet experience has shown me how Spirit can reveal itself through those cracks – through my inner fragmentation – along with the demons that live within my own unexplored shadow. And for those of us finding are own way, the distinction between gods and demons has to be found through individual exploration. An external moral code that speaks in generalisations does not suffice. I’ve experienced the truth of this saying: “Anything can be a path, even a demon. Anything can be a demon, even a path.”  Hence, I’ve had to do massive amounts of cleansing work – a process I’m still involved with. That’s how I hone my sensitivity so that I can directly feel what’s appropriate and what’s not in any given circumstance. It’s a path of purification through ongoing cycles of being torn apart and regathering myself. Painful at times for sure, but one guided by numinous insights.

My active practice, extending over the last three decades, has shown me how difficult it is to shift from an egocentric perspective to a Self-oriented perspective, yet attempting it is the meaningful core of my life.  It’s a path that continually takes me to the limit of my endurance. And in the final analysis, easy or difficult has no relevance. It’s the path Spirit has given me. To not explore it means a meaningless existence. And nothing could be more painful than a meaningless life, as I know firsthand from the experience of my younger self.

Note:

1.  Jung uses the term ‘emotion’ as a synonym with ‘affect’. For him, emotional reactions are marked by physical symptoms and disturbed thinking. And that’s the sense I use the term ‘emotion’ in my above account. He distinguishes ‘feeling’ from ‘affect’ in spite of the fact that the dividing line is fluid, since feeling, after obtaining a certain intensity, releases physical innervations, thus becoming an affect.  Furthermore, Jung considers the sense of feeling we all possess, so vital for anyone on a spiritual path, has become atrophied in our contemporary culture because of the massive emphasis on thinking.  (Incidentally, he defines the field of our consciousness with four attributes: thinking, feeling, intuition, and sensation; all of which need to be developed for wholeness.)

A slightly edited version of something I wrote a while back on another thread: 

As someone who lives a fairly reclusive life, I come here for community to some degree. I like connecting with other people whose spiritual life is foremost. At times I feel the real warmth that comes from genuine connection. And there’s plenty of variety in personalities and perspectives here.  Also, there’s occasionally information I find particularly helpful. 
 
However, the nitty gritty of my experience is in working through difficulty.  I live within a semi-wilderness environment and my communion is mostly silent interaction with nature. That’s the core of my life. I don’t need any shields against intrusive human vibes or to expend energy on projecting an identity. But that in itself can lead to inner weakness. I’ve learnt that I also need meaningful opposition. That’s what I find on Dao Bums. 
 
The forum abounds with heavily defended city dwelling people, sensitive people who have needs for strong psychic shields. There’s so much unexpressed emotion lurking behind the words, so much psychic content to contend with.  Strong ego’s, forceful opinions, powerful identities, hostility both expressed and covert.  You name it, it here in spades. All these attributes help me gain insight into similarities within my own psyche. In particular, it reveals my emotional weaknesses and shows me how fragile my serenity can be. That shows me the specific areas I need to work through in a way that allows my heart to remain open amongst difficulty and opposition. For me, that's achieved by an ongoing alchemical process of enhancing and enriching my ability to feel in an undistorted way through the harmonisation of my innate feeling sensitivity by means of transmuting my emotional vulnerabilities so they become inner pathways into deeper reality. I've found by doing so I naturally enhance my alignment with heart-mind of Dao, with Spirit, with my Buddha nature (or whatever else you might like to call it.)  And that's the only true basis for inner strength. 
 
If a community could ever be perfect then none of us would need to develop inner connection with Spirit, with the Divine. Of course, I appreciate the effort people here, including myself, have made in the past and continue to make to try to maintain some degree of health here. That’s vital. It's in all of our interests. However, it will always be a futile task to try and impose that from the outside using rules. Ultimately the quality of discussion can only ever be a reflection on our collective de, with the most active contributors having the greatest influence.  To my mind, Dao Bums does very well for an online community. Underneath all the surface froth there’s real Spirit at work here. And that can only ever be something that's revealed to us in glimpses.  

[Addendum: The new moderation team has definitely reigned in some of the more hostile forum traits I've mentioned.] 

I have no answers to these heartfelt comments about our interactions here. I listen and I feel. The references to thick and thin skins are important,  reminds me of something speculative I wrote last year: 

A couple of weeks ago while I was sitting on the veranda of my studio a flametail finch flew inside through the open door and got itself trapped against a fixed window, flapping frantically against the glass. (I live on a forested acreage and have a studio located about 200 metres from my house.) I tried catching it by throwing a light cotton T-shirt over it but it kept evading my attempts to wrap it up. Easy enough to cover it with the T-shirt but difficult to find such a tiny bird underneath it. After a few attempts I was simply able to grab the bird and hold it in my hand. The whole time I was trying to project calmness and loving-kindness. 

Now the special thing, the magical thing that awoke a new realisation within me, came about from something I've felt many times before and I'm sure we've all felt without any special realisation. This time feeling the vital essence of that tiny bird, warm and full of wild life, terrified, heart beating frantically, but not struggling found a deep resonance within me. I only held it for a few seconds, just long enough to carry it out the door and across the veranda to release it. That magical thing, that vital essence is something all animals have, including we humans. It’s something hidden within our skin, within my skin. We all have it, yet it’s intensely individual. It’s my soft inner core that I must protect at all costs. It’s my animal nature that connects me with all my fellow animals and life in general. 

 For me, that ‘little bird’ inner essence is what I need to nurture and slowly expose so that it may grow ‘self-so’ into a diamond body, an indestructible core. It’s my Buddha nature in embryonic form. The normal process is to grow a thicker skin for protection by developing a strong ego and social persona; both necessary to function in society. My revelation here is to relate this external event with my growing awareness of my inner core as something other than my familiar conscious me. It has its own life-force, like that little bird. I have it within me, yet when I feel into it I can feel how it’s connected with the same essence in all other people, indeed all life. It's both strange and amazing to feel this mysterious 'something' within me. I want to allow it to grow so that it shows me the way, not vice versa. I know in its fragile state I can kill it with my own expectations. 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thank you!  

 

 

Much appreciated,  but that doesn't mean I like your idea of this forum as a version of the bar in Cheers.  

As to this discussion, my bottomline is that the forum has a new moderation team and hence a new flavour. I’m interested to see how that plays out over time and want to give the moderators plenty of space to find their appropriate level of policing. I’ll continue to give any feedback I feel is appropriate, as I have done here in my OP.  I’m not a major poster but Dao Bums is important for me. I learn plenty from my largely silent, but deeply felt engagement here. It’s a vital part of my ongoing xing cultivation. Hence I try to be constructive in my involvement. 

While I see the importance of conflict for the reasons Jung expresses it in my OP quotation, that can only work when combined with rigorous personal introspection. Conflict with the aim of knocking the other person out is a dead end for inner growth. And it’s toxic for this forum, as we’ve all seen. 
 

42 minutes ago, zerostao said:

On my previous time serving as a mod here, at one time I was a lone mod, I did everything to avoid banning anyone. On that, I have changed. Or at least the way I look at it has changed. I was trying to keep a bum here and not noticing the bums leaving silently because of a toxic, ridiculing, insulting, disrespectful bum, that i allowed to stay.

To be clear, so there is no misunderstanding where I am as a mod, if I come to an opinion that any bum, despite perceived status,  is ridiculing , insulting, disrespecting, belittling other members, i will err on the side of removing a disrespectful bum rather than lose more silent ones that were not engaging in dealing out insults or disrespect. That is my take on civil egalitarianism. Im open to criticism.

(My bold added.) 

I completely agree with this, providing the member receives due warning, which in my experience they always do. And I thank all the moderators for their openness. I greatly appreciate their willingness to explain their actions and personally examine their motives for taking such actions. They have shown they listen to our feedback and modify their actions if they feel it's appropriate. For me, that's what makes Dao Bums a special place.  The moderation here is definitely not oppressive. 

However I fully appreciate that tolerance and introspection can only go so far without stressing out the moderators, in which case they must take actions they deem appropriate.  However, I sincerely hope no one needs to be suspended over this. In the context of this discussion, I think it's up to any member criticizing the moderators to thoroughly examine their own motives.  And when any member shows willingness to do that -- to find fault within themself rather than inappropriately blaming others -- then they have my full support, my admiration even. 

Two topics now closed fro review:

To my mind Dao Bums needs to allow this sort of discussion. It relates directly to practice and the shape of this forum.  From Carl Jung:

“The stirring up of conflict is a Luciferian virtue in the true sense of the word. Conflict engenders fire, the fire of affects and emotions, and like every other fire it has two aspects, that of combustion and that of creating light. On the one hand, emotion is the alchemical fire whose warmth brings everything into existence and whose heat burns all superfluities to ashes. But on the other hand, emotion is the moment when steel meets flint and a spark is struck forth, for emotion is the chief source of consciousness. There is no change from darkness to light or from inertia to movement without emotion.”

[As an aside, Jung’s reference to Luciferianism inspired me to research what he meant.  I first read this article about how the name Lucifer became (falsely) associated with the devil.  That got me interested in the subject and I wondered at its truth so I followed it up by reading the more comprehensive Wikipedia entry on Lucifer. Heaps of interesting info there. Reading this sort of stuff reminds me of just how rich and fertile a country Christianity is. It's a vast place, full of diversity. Although it feels like a foreign country to me, I appreciate the fundamental truths it seeks; truths that shape our Western culture.

From Wikipedia: Luciferianism is a belief system that venerates the essential characteristics that are affixed to Lucifer. The tradition, influenced by Gnosticism, usually reveres Lucifer not as the devil, but as a destroyer, a guardian, liberator, light bringer or guiding spirit to darkness, or even the true god as opposed to Jehovah.]

I like that image. I see within it the shifting of forms formless. Yin manifest, no hard edges or centre.

It reminds me of Daodejing 21:

As for the Way, it is vague and illusive
Vague and illusive!
Within it is an image
Vague and illusive!
Within it is a thing
Withdrawn and dark!
Within it there is an essence
The essence is genuine and authentic

13 hours ago, CloudHands said:

Dear Yueya, from my mind no arrow was fired. I took the opportunity to guess at someone's nature after reading a post related to that subject. Did I say something offending ? Did I draw a disgusting portrait ? I don't think so.

 

I don't intend to heal or arm Steve, sometimes discussing things let us grow a little more but I don't pretend to teach or help or educate anybody in that thread and I specially think he doesn't need it. We never interacted much but it has always been made with cordiality and I always showed him respect and consideration. 

 

So I return you the question ! Why are you thinking I fired at him ?

Thanks Cloud Hands. I’m happy to leave it at that. To my mind, any further discussion would be counterproductive. I’ve given my account and you’ve listened. Likewise, you’ve given your account and I’ve listened.  

Thanks Steve. Excellent .  I feel very comfortable with all you have said about yourself and your vision for this forum.

1 hour ago, steve said:

In terms of the inner work, I’m currently engaged in a 3 year program that integrates spiritual training and practice with elements of psychotherapy - journaling, writing out personal transformations, group sessions, and so on.

I think psychotherapy of an appropriate sort has much to offer for those of us on a spiritual path . For me personally, Carl Jung's insights are a perfect complement to Daoist praxis. His style of psychotherapy goes to the heart of what is now called spiritual growth. What I particularly like is its relevance to our contemporary Western psyche. 

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

 

Yes,  no worries on my account.

 

Actually my intent was not to solicit opinions on my behavior here. My title was perhaps a bit clumsy and misleading. It was a rhetorical question meant to encourage people to look inward. You needed to read the OP to get that I guess and Cloud Hands admitted not reading the thread. My apologies Yueya, if my ambiguity caused any distress. I deeply appreciate and admire the forbearance you display here and find your contributions some of the most stimulating.

 

I appreciate all of the posts. I won’t respond so much to comments about me personally as I didn’t intend to make this about me, rather about each of us taking the opportunity to look at ourselves if we’re willing. 

 

That said, there is more than a little truth to Cloud Hands’ comments.

😁

Thanks Steve.  That you are able to respond in that calm way reveals to me the deep reach of your practice. What follows is purely my take on the situation:

During the recent time without moderation this forum, in part, became a battleground of people trying to pull each other down. But because it was recognised as a battleground by those involved, people had their defensive shields up, their hearts closed off. Most of us could see the obvious – namely, that’s not a healthy dynamic for a forum focused on spiritual growth.

Thankfully the new moderator team banished that overtly hostile dynamic. I think Steve in particular wanted to make the forum a safe place. I like that but I wondered how it would play out in practice: A safe place for people to reveal their hearts and explore their shadow side, or a safe place where people could build their egocentric persona without opposition?

With this topic, Steve in his OP, intentionally or not, has opened his heart to some small degree. He felt safe enough to do so and suggested we all do likewise in our interactions here. Yet what happened shows me how dangerous this can be. We wear our shields for good reason. As I see it, into this opening of his heart, Cloud Hands fired off an arrow. Was it an arrow of compassion designed to heal, or an arrow mean to wound? I’ll leave that for Cloud Hands to answer.

In any case I see the hand of Spirit at work here. Growth through wounding and healing are at the core of a healthy spiritual path.  I suspect Steve will be able to hold both his commendable public side as outlined by Manitou above and his shadow side, and hence become more whole as a person (though perhaps not with the easy acceptance he has implied.) This is the alchemical process – a heating of the ingredients with the fire of emotion, leading to a ‘chymical wedding’ of the previously hostile elements within our psyche so that they are transmuted into pure psychological gold.

But that is not something to be rushed into. It’s a lifetime’s work. It requires much inner refinement; especially deep compassion and humility. Try to force it and the whole process goes awry.

14 hours ago, CloudHands said:

I did not read what was written before, I will do it later.

 

The best (erroneous) feedback I can give you is the vocal tone I put on your writings. I read you with a very soft, rather low voice almost mellow. Like someone that reached some level of peacefulness through stubborn self control.

 

I think you are very sensitive and you find with Buddhism a way to deal with it. Maybe a tad of cowardice ?

 

So...  not very lively and spontaneous but extremely steady and balanced. Also gentle and compassionate.

And with that comment this topic becomes very real, perhaps too real. 

Something fundamental I learnt from my days as a shiatsu therapist is to never point out anyone’s shadow unless I can be genuinely and fully supportive of them. Otherwise I will simply arouse a fierce hatred from them. Even if asked wouldn’t do so here because it’s powerful stuff. Very emotive. It’s not something for discussion on a public forum. If what you’ve said is real, and I suspect it is, my heart goes out to Steve. My hope is Cloud Hands judgement is good, and Steve is able to handle it.  Though for me it’s aroused much emotion. A taboo has been violated; an arrow shot into someone's heart.  

On 23/08/2020 at 2:08 AM, steve said:

What I created this thread for, however, was more to explore my DaoBums persona and how that relates to the variety of personas I inhabit in my day to day. Not so much with the intention of transcending ignorance and connecting with the absolute Nature of Myself, but rather to become a bit more aware of who I am when I am here. Why I make certain choices, post certain things and not others, etc...

I find this forum is a great place to learn about the psyche of people on a spiritual path, and hence to know myself better.  The whole dynamic of discussion here interests me, as much if not more so than the actual content.  I note which topics gain interest, how the discussion flows, what power plays are active, etc etc. Currently I’m interested to see how the forum develops under the new moderator team with its emphasis on providing a safe place for discussion. 

The members who post frequently make great research subjects.  Over time they reveal plenty about themselves outside their intent, including glimpses of their shadow side. My intuition about other people is generally good, but dismal when it comes to knowing myself. (From my observation, we are all like that, with those who claim perfect insight into themselves the most blind.)  Hence I mostly get to know hidden aspects of myself through reflection. For instance, I note my reactions to comments and examine how I feel; especially when my emotions are aroused. That’s an indicator of something important bubbling up just below the threshold of my consciousness.  
 

And this one makes me weep.