somtingwong

The planet earth is an illusion. The sun is an illusion. 3-dimensional space is an illusion. Ours is a perceived reality. Sensory perception is instantaneous. Without memory, there is no way to perceive anything. This brings us to the nature of things. They are all perceptual in nature and have no existence independent of the perceiver. Therefore, creation itself is the illusion. What about the perceiver? Don’t mess around, Jadespear. If you are serious about this inquiry, it could unravel all your relationships and destroy your life as you are living it. That was what happened to the Buddha.

Enlightenment is not relative to each person. If it is, then it isn't enlightenment. We are going about this the wrong way. Actually, there is no enlightenment but there is ignorance. The realization of ignorance is enlightenment. And you are right when you said that there must be a way to intellectually make sense of anything that is asserted as an illusion. No scientist would present a paper on a discovery to his peers without proof.

I hail from Hong Kong and got interested in spirituality while studying martial arts. I have strong interest in finding a study group. At the moment I am concentrating on self-study.

I consciously use English words too for many things. Being a Hong Kong native doesn't mean being a Cantonese.

But it is right to alienate guys like jadespear who keep pounding on our door? Perhaps the answers that came from within us are what he wants investigated. To barricade our door and shoot him down could point to our ego that we want to protect.

Kevin said: I actually came into it through anthropology, then I started a Chinese medicine school so I could study it. Chinese medicine is based almost entirely on empirical observation, so it depends on what you mean by science. In bio-medicine there is a bias that says if it isn't based on a double-blind experiment it isn't science. However, empirical observation is also science as we can see by such things as the study of plate tectonics and cosmology. There is the impression on the outside of Chinese medicine that it involves a lot of magical beliefs, however, you will find that modern people are actually much more fantastical in their thinking about the world that the ancient Chinese were when it comes to health. Chinese medicine is based on very pragmatic observations of pathological changes in many body systems. Even though the language may be colourful doesn't mean the thinking is vague. Take "heart fire" for example, the classic Chinese were not stupid, they were not talking about literal fire in the heart. Instead they used the imagery of fire to convey the circumstances of a series of inflammatory processes in the body that centred on heart function and showed in a series of interrelated symptoms that form a recognizable syndrome (red tip of the tongue, increased cognitive agitation, insomnia, frequent and relatively rapid speech, increased heart rate, palpitations, and so on). This is the pattern of diagnosis in Chinese medicine and the treatments are based on the same kind of observation. Acupoint and herb selection isn't based on magical formulae, its based on predictable changes based on observation. A person who argues for a more "scientific" approach may say "so (the acupoint) 内关 Neiguan may reduce symptoms of nausea, but if you can't tell me what the exact mechanism of action is its just magic thinking." In Chinese medicine we say, "how will understanding the mechanism make it better for the patient?" Its not that it wouldn't be useful to understand it, but there no reason not to use the acupoint to treat nausea before that is understood. If it were merely a placebo effect of the patient's belief in getting cured the results would not be so consistent, nor would it work on animals. So to answer your question, I probably know as much biomedical pathology as your average MD, and I also know a pragmatic and highly practical medicine that has been clinically tested for over 2300 years and still stands up today. Not much faith needed.

Let's examine this statement: "Even though the language may be colourful doesn't mean the thinking is vague." The way the learned Chinese uses his language is indeed colorful. It's metaphorical. If we can cut through the flowery symbols and grasp the precise thinking, would traditional Chinese medicine (中醫) share the same concept of disease and model of the body as the western scientific method? Taking the pulse, for example, is measuring the number of beats per minute to the western doctor, while the Chinese doctor is detecting some underlying disharmony of the yin-yang kind.

Ok, General it is.

What difference? It's all in English anyway. Chow mein is ramen to a an Englishman.

Chinese, Korean and Japanese cultures share the same social etiquette. In English, their respective titles of respect are all the same to us westerners. Kevin is neither Chinese nor Japanese. So, I didn't think it mattered if I didn't address him as a Chinese would.

Wow, I really like your answer, Kevin. It's about time someone speaks with substance and rationale on the Taoist (or should I say Chinese) approach to life, in general, and medicine, in particular. I have been a skeptic thus far regardless of the fact that I grew up in Hong Kong and have had treatments by Chinese senseis for ailments. I lost all faith after the last time when I had a small lump growing up the side of my face. The Chinese doctor, quite well-known locally, applied a stinky black patch on the area. The lump got bigger after a third visit with the same procedure. I asked the sensei what was his intent. He told me that his medication will cause the lump to burst. I went straight to the hospital and was treated in the outpatient clinic by a pretty Chinese doctor. She lanced the lump, which was actually a large boil, squeezed out the pus, dressed the wound, and told me "that's it, just come back to change the dressing tomorrow." It was over in ten minutes. I think we need to continue this conversation outside this lobby meant for casual chat. If someone could point me to the right sub forum, I could start a new topic if that's ok with you, Sensei Kevin. Is it "General Discussion"? or "Taoist Discussion"?

Did you study Chinese medicine in Uni? I have always been skeptical about the Chinese approach to physical health. What do you think of acupuncture? Is your Chinese medicine based on faith or science?

Your topic is about Chi, some sort of energy that can be harnessed and directed by the practitioner. I accept that there is a way to apply one's energy such that it is effectively directed with maximum impact. I don't believe in some mystic Chi force that can be developed. So far, my interactions with Tai Chi practitioners have not caused me to change my mind. They tell me that they can do this or they can do that but I have not seen anything unusual. I am keeping my mind open to anything Tai Chi Masters have to offer in relation to martial art.

I know that Jesus is a deity in the Hindu religion and that the Virgin Mary is portrayed as a Kuan Yin to Taoists. Theosophy includes all the religions, both east and west. I suppose it depends on how one looks at religion. Raised as a Catholic by missionaries, my theology is pretty well-defined. Tai Chi is more than just martial art. It's underlying philosophy is rooted in beliefs that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus.

Oh, that's funny. Actually, my name is Wong Som Ting (王心定) and it means "steady heart". "Wong" is a surname given to me by the nuns who found me. Why they gave me a Cantonese name given the fact that I wasn't Chinese is a mystery. I should have used "wongsomting" as the username.

Yeah, crazy. I have always been wondering how a white kid got dumped in Hong Kong. I remember growing up with the nuns in Kowloon. Later, around 7 years old, I was with the La Salle Brothers. Come to think of it, my life wasn't that bad compared to other kids in Hong Kong. I had a good "family" and went to the best schools in Hong Kong (La Salle College). Studying in the States? You must come from a well-to-do family.

What joke, Marblehead?

Kevin, how are you? Although I grew up in Hong Kong, I don't know how I got there. Apparently, I was thrown into an orphanage at 3 month's old. They raised me like a Hong Konger and by the time I was in my teens I was running around town like a Chinese thug speaking Cantonese. I come across like Jason Lee to my friends. But I think I am 100% white because my face doesn't have that oriental look. It's so crazy man. I don't like kung fu because it doesn't appeal to me. I have been learning Korean Karate. Where did you learn Chinese, Kevin? Mook yan chong is not cool. Very painful to practise on. And it's not realistic training aid. I prefer moving targets.

Why are you laughing, Punk?

What does Basher mean, Chang?

Thanks Punk, do you like manga art? What your interests?

Are you a bad person? Do you think the cannabis hold you in suspension and keep you safe?

You are very persistent, Jadespear. I admire your tenacity. It has frightened away the spirits of the valley. Such is the power of inquiry.

Why is your avatar like Jesus? Is that strange or not? I never come across Christians practising Taoist stuff.