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Primary and Secondary Enlightenment?


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#1 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 07:36 PM

Intellectual percolations here... :rolleyes:

I'm going to say that there is Earthly Enlightenment, and there is Celestial Enlightenment.

Earthly is seeing the true reality of ego dust ( ^_^ you like that term ;) ? :lol: You can use it... :) ?

Celestial Enlightenment is Rainbow Body et all


To stop playing and living in make believe... this is, imo, the first goal towards peace and harmony and Earthly Enlightenment


To know "primary enlightenment" (made that one up m'self...) is more than enough to change the hegemonic consciousness towards wisdom.. :ph34r: :ph34r: ??
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#2 XieJia

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:03 PM

Thus I have heard;
maybe enlightenment exist maybe it don't

what two could be one, for one is realised and known by the two.
seeing the dust attach to the mirror and the mirror attach to the dust.

what does dust see when it look at the mirror?

what is mirror is dust, what is dust is mirror.

thus how can dust be dust, how can mirror be mirror?
when one sees, there's only the one that is being seen.


Maybe the make-believe is the playing and living;
there is no playing or living outside of that.

Thus is what I have heard.

Who knows, I don't know. What is it then that knows?
Silence is still a sound is it not?





#3 steve

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 05:51 AM

Silence is still a sound is it not?

Is silence still a sound if there is no ear not to hear?
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#4 xabir2005

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 06:39 AM

Thus I have heard;
maybe enlightenment exist maybe it don't

what two could be one, for one is realised and known by the two.
seeing the dust attach to the mirror and the mirror attach to the dust.

what does dust see when it look at the mirror?

what is mirror is dust, what is dust is mirror.

thus how can dust be dust, how can mirror be mirror?
when one sees, there's only the one that is being seen.


Maybe the make-believe is the playing and living;
there is no playing or living outside of that.

Thus is what I have heard.

Who knows, I don't know. What is it then that knows?
Silence is still a sound is it not?

what happens when mirror breaks and there's no mirror?

#5 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 08:26 AM

By ego dust, I mean that it is dust-- it lands on the mirror and it gets blown away.. it is not part of the mirror; though if you want to say that it is because it's on the mirror, ok, but really it's just sitting on there until it gets blown away and one realizes that it is in fact not part of the mirror.

What is the mirror? The mirror is the Truth of what is real and what is not.

Edited by Harmonious Emptiness, 14 September 2011 - 08:26 AM.


#6 XieJia

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 09:04 AM

@Steve
Posted Image

@xabir2005
thus is what I have heard

dust see dust in the mirror
mirror see itself by the dust

when there's no dust; there's no mirror

how can mirror still be mirror?
what is there to reflect?

@Harmonious
When there isn't falsehood; where is the truth?
Right Views is the undoing of the Wrong Views.
As Sila, Samadhi (Concentration) and Prajna (Panna or Wisdom)
is the undoing of Desire, Anger and Ignorance.

How can anything exist independently? other than the Conditioned dependent of itself.
How could one say that this exist, not exist, or either exist or not exist?

Thus is what I have heard.

Posted ImageGoodluck to all




#7 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 09:59 AM

mirror see itself by the dust

when there's no dust; there's no mirror

how can mirror still be mirror?
what is there to reflect?

something to think about.
my thoughts:
When the mirror sees dust it thinks it is dust. When no dust, the mirror sees Everything/Truth


@Harmonious
When there isn't falsehood; where is the truth?

Everywhere

Right Views is the undoing of the Wrong Views.
As Sila, Samadhi (Concentration) and Prajna (Panna or Wisdom)
is the undoing of Desire, Anger and Ignorance.

How can anything exist independently? other than the Conditioned dependent of itself.

Exactly. How can the these egos, or false-egos if we prefer, exist other than by ideas, views, beliefs, all of which are perhaps the most dependent and impermanent of all phenomena.

How could one say that this exist, not exist, or either exist or not exist?

No sense trying to answer unanswerable questions I think.

Thus is what I have heard.

Posted ImageGoodluck to all



#8 xabir2005

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 03:43 PM

@xabir2005
thus is what I have heard

but do you also know this directly?

dust see dust in the mirror
mirror see itself by the dust

not bad. This is non dual case two: http://awakeningtore...ing-of-non.html

To understand case three you need to realize anatta.

when there's no dust; there's no mirror

how can mirror still be mirror?
what is there to reflect?

your statement is not bad, but it is still thusness stage 4 and not 5 of http://awakeningtore...experience.html . Therefore your answer still cannot pass this koan:

Xue Feng said, “To comprehend this matter, it is similar to the ancient mirror – Hu comes, Hu appears; Han comes, Han appears.” Xuan Sha heard this and said, “Suddenly the mirror is broken, then how?” “Hu and Han both disappear.” Xuan Sha said, “Old monk’s heels have not touched ground yet.” Jian says instead, “Hu and Han are ready-made.”

Edited by xabir2005, 14 September 2011 - 04:07 PM.


#9 Informer

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 03:48 PM

Haha, I got a chuckle from that.

+1

#10 Informer

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 03:51 PM

Xue Feng said, “To comprehend this matter, it is similar to the ancient mirror – Hu comes, Hu appears; Han comes, Han appears.” Xuan Sha heard this and said, “Suddenly the mirror is broken, then how?” “Hu and Han both disappear.” Xuan Sha said, “Old monk’s heels have not touched ground yet.” Jian says instead, “Hu and Han are ready-made.”


This is saying that the old monk is still sleeping and Hu and Han are the obvious suspects. Big Deal?

#11 Informer

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 04:00 PM

Must be pointing at deduction. Finding the answer without answering what it is, but finding what it is not.

#12 xabir2005

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 04:04 PM

This is saying that the old monk is still sleeping and Hu and Han are the obvious suspects. Big Deal?

The old monk says the way is like an all reflecting mirror awareness where phenomena are revealed exactly as it is in it.

Xuan sha is however trying to point the experience of breaking the mirror, which would be the realization of anatta. This is as thusness said, no mirror reflecting, manifestation alone is. Xue feng and xuan sha are at different stages.

Edited by xabir2005, 14 September 2011 - 04:06 PM.


#13 Informer

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 04:09 PM

The old monk says the way is like an all reflecting mirror awareness where phenomena are revealed exactly as it is in it.

Xue feng is however trying to point the experience of breaking the mirror, which would be the realization of anatta. This is as thusness said, no mirror reflecting, manifestation alone is.


Which the only way to discover that is through deduction. You can only ever see the reflection in this regards. Illusion of self is represented by the mirror.

As the illusion of self is represented within the reflection of the moon in a pale of water in another story.

Tell more stories xabir or anyone who wants too! ^.^

Edited by Informer, 14 September 2011 - 04:12 PM.


#14 xabir2005

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 04:16 PM

Which the only way to discover that is through deduction. You can only ever see the reflection in this regards. Illusion of self is represented by the mirror.

As the illusion of self is represented within the reflection of the moon in a pale of water in another story.

Tell more stories xabir or anyone who wants too! ^.^

To discover it no deductions is required... But an experiential realization

#15 Informer

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 04:22 PM

To discover it no deductions is required... But an experiential realization


You break the mirror then what is left?

#16 XieJia

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 04:26 PM

Hahaha me like the way this thread is going.
Though I am not familiar with a Koan tradition.

Let me try... Posted Image

Dust is dust
Mirror is mirror


mirror itself, the dust.
dust itself, the mirror.

The two
comes together
stands together
goes together

How can we be partial and wipe the mirror?

both are dusts, both are mirrors

what is there to see when two mirrors reflects?
dust and mirror becomes one, what does one goes to?

@Xabir
There's some realisation but yet to pass through the gate.
I still see myself outside.
I am still partial between the Dukkha, Anitjun, Anatta.

@Informer
+1 hahaha

Goodluck to one Posted Image







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