Buddhist/Daoist Views Related to Xing/Dharmakaya(Split From What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?)

[Forestgreen]

On 2026-01-16 at 10:50 PM, cake1234566 said:

 

I have a lot of respect for Zen buddhism, have you read Hakuin's Yasenkanna? He describes neidan as a separate practice that is useful for supernatural health and longevity but that buddhism is supremely important for the spirit

He demonstrates solid knowledge in neidan and is regarded as one of the Zen patriarchs, he writes that the two methods are not the same

https://otani.repo.nii.ac.jp/record/8339/files/EBNVol.34No.1_OCR_05.pdf

 

The method described does not correspond to "refining the elixir nine times over" (pg 95) which leads to celestial immortality, it conforms to methods relevant for human/earth/spirit immortality.

[cake1234566]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

The method described does not correspond to "refining the elixir nine times over" (pg 95) which leads to celestial immortality, it conforms to methods relevant for human/earth/spirit immortality.

There's a few different versions around that are a bit different, I wouldn't take hakuin's advice on neidan more than i'd take wang chongyang's advice on buddhism however haha

The original has more traditional instruction corresponding to northern alchemy but is of course not translated

He specifically discusses the 金液還丹 or "Golden Liquid Returning Elixir"

https://wikisource.org/wiki/夜船閑話

I read through your Neidan 101 five ranks of Xian thread, really solid info! I don't agree with some of your conclusions but I think your viewpoint and research are really cool 

[Forestgreen]

29 minutes ago, cake1234566 said:

 

I read through your Neidan 101 five ranks of Xian thread, really solid info! I don't agree with some of your conclusions but I think your viewpoint and research are really cool 

Disagreement of how texts should be interpreted has been the core of religious discussions for millennia. Please feel free to pick my post apart in that thread.

[Antares]

On 18.01.2026 at 4:34 PM, Forestgreen said:

Disagreement of how texts should be interpreted has been the core of religious discussions for millennia.

Well, as for Daoism this is not religion. But you can find there different interpretations of terms in texts - different schools may have diff. understandings of the same terms. 

Edited Tuesday at 10:50 AM by Antares
may have vs have

[Trunk]

My two cents re: ming and xing.
heavily influenced by what-I've-been-into.

- Trunk

[exorcist_1699]

To me , there is only one truth in this Cosmos , we cannot say that there are three types of  truth that  humans  find in  this cosmos , and all are okay , say  1) the Western truth ( Modern physics : Theory of Relativity + Quantum physics  , not mentioning other disciplines  mainly because  we are talking about  the basics )  ;  2) Buddha Mind:  a Mind exists everywhere , equivalent to  emptiness where Consciousness ( Cosmic ) + information + energy  are hidden ;  3) Taoist Primordial Qi : exists everywhere , gets the  same idea of Consciousness ( Cosmic ) + information + energy   as the Buddhist . I do not intent to explore them all here in details  , a topic too big for me at this stage ,  only want to say :

 

1) Western scientific truth : A result which comes from  reasoning + observation (extend physical equipment) + related maths + measurement is a world /truth of different reasoning ( analytic mind "識神" ) ;it means what kind of mind/Mind we apply , what kind of world/truth appears to us  .

 

2) Buddhist and Daoist truth are  Truth /worlds comes from Mindless mind /  No-mind , with no words,  no mathematical symbols ,on intention and  no physical equipment's help .  Taoist Primordial Qi, its embodiment in humans' mind  is called Yuan Shen ("元神  ",literally means the Meta- Mind,   equals to the "Buddha Heart ")  used when what is emphasized is the entity and usage/expression  relation( "體用")  ;  it can also be  called  Xing ( Spiritual Nature ) when the  relation between  Shen   , qi cum jing (Meng ) needs to be emphasized .  Also called Yang Shen when its Yang aspect , not Yin's  , needs to be emphasized. The contribution of Taoist theory  are :

 

a ) Raise of the Xing and Meng ideas, which  Buddhist theory lack of , and makes them  important ;  Buddhists are unable to understand this which makes Buddhists look down  the physical proofs ; I have deep pity on them;  in fact,  capable or incapable  of reversing  your grey hair to shiny black ones or capable of regrowing  your fallen teeth or not can be the best criteria for judging  how good / correct your spiritual practice is .

 

b ) Yin and Yang concepts,  similarly Buddhist theory lacks of them , but they are good concepts to judge whether people's  Buddhist way doing correctly or fruitlessly ( Yang always refers  productive )  : mostly witches/Taoist fortune-tellers are capable of telling people's future , yet incapable of attaining immortality ;  that means , they are entangled by trivial/ tactics ("術") , always expressions of yin type of minds, incapable of attaining Tao .  In modern jargon, what usage of A Cosmic Mind/ Quantum Mind, if it  can't enable people to get energy from the void ?

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by exorcist_1699

[SodaChanh]

26 minutes ago, exorcist_1699 said:

a ) Raise of the Xing and Meng ideas, which  Buddhist theory lack of , and makes them  important;  Buddhists are unable to understand this which makes Buddhists look down  the physical proofs, I have deep pity on them;  in fact,  capable or incapable  of reversing  your grey hair to shiny black ones or capable of regrowing  your fallen teeth or not can be the best criteria for judging  how good / correct your spiritual practice is .

 

You have reversed your grey hair? 

 

You say Buddhism but it only refers to sutrayana. Buddhist Tantric practice like gtummo is like Daoist LDT but focus is on enlightenment. What I mean by this could be read in Modern Buddhism vol 2.

 

This is from Namkhai Norbu

 

Quote

Any Dzogchen practice should always be done in a state of

maximum relaxation, observing whether there is any tension or

effort. If there is any effort you need to relax. This is very im-

portant. In Buddhist Sutra, for instance, knowledge of energy is

somewhat lacking. We discover this when we learn about Tantra.

If sensations are blocked, the energy explodes, and then a vari-

ety of things can happen. To avoid blocking it, Tantra emphasizes the knowledge of energy. But when we come to the Dzogchen teaching, we discover that Tantra is a bit lacking in the area of relaxation. Tregchö is a teaching that specifically addresses this point. In fact, sometimes when we are doing visualization we get

so charged up that we become tense. In Dzogchen teaching you

can have any kind of experience, but in a relaxed manner.

 

This is from Modern Buddhism vol 2

 

Quote

There are many different levels of purifying our mind. The subtle mistaken appearance of our mind cannot be purified through the practice of Sutra alone; we need to engage in the practice of Highest Yoga Tantra. When we completely purify our mind through Tantric practice, our world, our self, our enjoyments and our activities also become completely pure – this is the state of enlightenment. Attaining enlightenment is therefore very simple; all we need to do is apply effort to purifying our mind.

 

[cake1234566]

38 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

 

You have reversed your grey hair? 

 

You say Buddhism but it only refers to sutrayana. Buddhist Tantric practice like gtummo is like Daoist LDT but focus is on enlightenment. What I mean by this could be read in Modern Buddhism vol 2.

 

This is from Modern Buddhism vol 2

Hey just a heads up you should be very careful with any books written by geshe kelsang as he's affiliated with the new kadampa tradition which is pretty heavily discouraged by the entire vajrayana community (like orthodox teachers saying destroy the materials ritualistically, discouraged)

Namkhai norbu was great though, wish I had a chance to attend his teachings while he was still alive

[SodaChanh]

4 minutes ago, cake1234566 said:

Hey just a heads up you should be very careful with any books written by geshe kelsang as he's affiliated with the new kadampa tradition which is pretty heavily discouraged by the entire vajrayana community (like orthodox teachers saying destroy the materials ritualistically, discouraged)

 

Thanks. 

 

You agree with the quote or what is your take on Tantra vs Sutra? 

 

4 minutes ago, cake1234566 said:

Namkhai norbu was great though, wish I had a chance to attend his teachings while he was still alive

 

It was amazing. Funny thing I didn't intellectually understand the teachings, even during worldwide transmission. But he hit something deep in my heart and I still do parts of the Guru Yoga practice and Song of the Vajra. 

 

You can ask for teachings from him if you are sincere - even though he is dead.