Buddhist/Daoist Views Related to Xing/Dharmakaya(Split From What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?)

[MIchael80]

3 hours ago, cake1234566 said:

Yes that's a whole can of worms so to speak haha

The energetic bodies in Vajrayana are (generally) not the same as the yang immortal body of neidan, the rainbow body would be the closest comparison as its cultivated via reverting the consciousness back to origin but that's a very specific thing that uses an entirely different cultivation method and usually means that the physical form disappears and that life on earth has concluded

I know that several neidan lineages deal with other energetic bodies prior to the ultimate yang immortal body but I won't talk too much about that as I haven't received direct transmission on the topic

In Vajrayana I think depending on the lineage you are often instructed to assume the form of the deity 24/7 and so the merging of consciousness happens on varying levels throughout your life as perceptions are purified, there are stories of people able to physically become the deity after sustained practice of this

 

Ultimately we only have one human experience of course and so someone that has achieved each energetic body according to the tradition could tell whether they're the same or not, I would personally say that they're different as the cultivation methods and reported effects are different

 

To put on my universalism cap for a moment, religious daoism which is incorporated in varying degrees in neidan lineages deals strongly with deity yoga similarly to vajrayana, in religious daoism deity yoga is said to be a way to access ling qi or "brahma qi" as one aims to assume the authority and energy of heaven

I'd say the siddhis from yidam practice are likely similar to the religious daoism line of development even if done for different purposes

 

South east asian esoteric buddhism is super interesting, i've found some really cool stuff from Vietnam that incorporates neidan and tantric buddhism from the shingon line into one lineage

Almost impossible to find good info from there without taking a trip and knowing the right people though haha

 

Nan huai-chin has some interesting writings about the similarities between neidan and vajrayana as he says that he's studied both (mostly untranslated in chinese however)

His view from what i've seen is also that they are two separate processes that can ultimately compliment each other
 

 

Yeah, these non public south east asian buddhist lineages are super fascinating. 

They seem to be closer to the Tamil siddha lineages than modern buddhism. (with all their alchemical work etc).

 

Do you want to share a bit more what you have experienced there?

[Forestgreen]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It is entirely possible to have complete realization without energetic work, 

And it is entirely possible to have the same realization with energy work, why so one-sided?.

And it is possible to do a lot of work and not having a realization about reality, but having other experiences that a tradition values and call spiritual. 

It is even possible that, lets say a theravada buddhist, doesn't call it energywork but still practice it, because nomenclature differs between traditions and there is more to it than breathing methods and pushing energy into the head. 

Just imagine the possibilities😁

 

I feel that you are playing with words. If you do not think that practice causes realization, why did you spend so much time practicing? Why do you mention that people with a few months of practice might get short spiritual experiences, instead of saying "I watched football with the gang last saturday, and darn if we all didn't have a glimpse of reality"?

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

And it is entirely possible to have the same realization with energy work, why so one-sided?.

And it is possible to do a lot of work and not having a realization about reality, but having other experiences that a tradition values and call spiritual. 

It is even possible that, lets say a theravada buddhist, doesn't call it energywork but still practice it, because nomenclature differs between traditions and there is more to it than breathing methods and pushing energy into the head. 

Just imagine the possibilities😁

 

I feel that you are playing with words. If you do not think that practice causes realization, why did you spend so much time practicing? Why do you mention that people with a few months of practice might get short spiritual experiences, instead of saying "I watched football with the gang last saturday, and darn if we all didn't have a glimpse of reality"?

I think it is a matter of which order you do things in and what emphasis is given.  For instance in Karma Pakshi’s three/ four Kaya approach you could argue that the dharmakaya is xing- like while the sambhoga Kaya is tsa- lung related.  I have even heard it explained that lojong can be understood as energy work broadly - although I don’t think they would ever actually say that in so many words.

 

 

[SodaChanh]

Regarding gTummo teachings I heard from Lama Dawai that the order would be Yantra Yoga, then Trulkhor, then gTummo. 

 

I did a lot of energy work and found it useful. Though the knowingness of experience so to speak is the same. 

 

There are people who just sit in satsangs for 20 years Nisargadatta style with a simple pointing out that everything the mind says is a story and 'unreal' with a pointing to the real. See Sailor Bob Adamson and Sailor Sisters on YouTube for evidence. 

 

The view from the top of the mountain is the same. How we get to the top is different. 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

See Sailor Bob Adamson and Sailor Sisters on YouTube

How do they form the pill?

[Antares]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

There are people who just sit in satsangs for 20 years Nisargadatta style

Also I wonder if everything is so simple why you think there are so many level in FP?

May be you think FDD was sort of idiot to develop such elaborate system as FP?

 

[SodaChanh]

28 minutes ago, Antares said:

How do they form the pill?

 

Problem is you take a Daoist concept and assign it as Truth. 

 

21 minutes ago, Antares said:

Also I wonder if everything is so simple why you think there are so many level in FP?

May be you think FDD was sort of idiot to develop such elaborate system as FP?

 

FDD wasn't an idiot. FP is a divine system received by FDD from a Deity as mentioned many times. 

 

I have recommended it for those who have an affinity with it. 

[Antares]

14 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

Problem is you take a Daoist concept and assign it as Truth. 

If you do believe there is no such thing as "pill", what are you doing here in Daoist Discussion?

You want to spread your own Truth?

Edited Thursday at 10:38 AM by Antares

[stirling]

On 1/14/2026 at 12:38 AM, Antares said:

WHAT IS REALIZATION in your opinion? You say about Buddhist understanding of it. That's fine. No problem for me you have your own opinion

 

Forget Buddhism. Religions and practices make give you glimpses of enlightenment or realization, but are not the realization themselves. Realization is the permanent seeing of emptiness/Dao/Brahman in this moment. It isn't something that happens because you are practicing, It doesn't come and go - isn't a state... it is a permanent shift in how reality is seen and understood. 

 

On 1/14/2026 at 12:38 AM, Antares said:

Okay, what lineage IN THE WEST do they represent now? I would like to talk to a person from that lineage personally but not to someone who only saw walking master

 

The teacher I worked with was Gyatrul Rinpoche. He is pretty old now, but you might be able to meet him.

[stirling]

On 1/14/2026 at 12:47 AM, Antares said:

No every non - dual state is the same. It depends what they experience - it can be emptiness or fullness. 

Some buddhists enter the emptiness, but this is not yang shen realization. 

 

The complete realization of non-duality is not a "state"... it doesn't come and go, and doesn't come in flavors. I has NO qualities. You can describe it in different ways, but those are descriptions, not the state itself. 

 

What is your percieved difference between "emptiness" and "yang shen"?

[stirling]

On 1/14/2026 at 1:44 AM, Antares said:

Read this thread if you want to see the difference between daoist and buddhist methods

 

The methods are unimportant. They point to the fruit, but are not ultimately the fruit of the path. 

 

I don't see any "approved" methods mentioned by Zhongli Quan. How would such a list be helpful without the "approved" methods being shared? Ultimately there are as many gates as there are people to find them.

[stirling]

On 1/14/2026 at 7:37 AM, Forestgreen said:

And it is entirely possible to have the same realization with energy work, why so one-sided?.

And it is possible to do a lot of work and not having a realization about reality, but having other experiences that a tradition values and call spiritual. 

It is even possible that, lets say a theravada buddhist, doesn't call it energywork but still practice it, because nomenclature differs between traditions and there is more to it than breathing methods and pushing energy into the head. 

Just imagine the possibilities😁

 

I feel that you are playing with words. If you do not think that practice causes realization, why did you spend so much time practicing? Why do you mention that people with a few months of practice might get short spiritual experiences, instead of saying "I watched football with the gang last saturday, and darn if we all didn't have a glimpse of reality"?

 

Not one sided - I simply take issue with the idea that there any one tradition has some monopoly on realzation, what is realized, and how to do it, my friend. I have a couple of friends that I have met along the way who did NONE of these practices and had complete realization. One is actually a stoic! 

 

In my opinion practices don't precipitate realization, but they DO make us more prone to realization ( (possibly not ALL of them). The practice isn't the cause, however, in my experience the cause is the realization itself - a misconception clarified. Are practices valuable? Certainly anyone who has ever taken up meditation for at least 20 minutes most days will see within a month that they are calmer, less reactive, kinder, etc. I'm not against practice, at all, but the discussion is about realization.

[SodaChanh]

20 hours ago, Antares said:

If you do believe there is no such thing as "pill", what are you doing here in Daoist Discussion?

You want to spread your own Truth?

 

I come from a standpoint aligned with what is written by Liu I-Ming, Buddha Shakyamuni and others who write from realization. 

[Antares]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

Realization is the permanent seeing of emptiness/Dao/Brahman in this moment.

Again - this is NOT Dao attainment  yet. You can not attain it without step by step transformation stages. Daoist theory is first you complete yuan qi and jing restoration and then join it with yuan shen and this is continuous process.

 

5 hours ago, stirling said:

What is your percieved difference between "emptiness" and "yang shen"?

 

I dont have yang shen and can't say now but they say if you have it you can travel in it in physical world. This is like subtle body of light. If you say you have DAOIST realization you must be able to do it. Can you?

[Antares]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

I come from a standpoint aligned with what is written by Liu I-Ming, Buddha Shakyamuni and others who write from realization. 

Liu Yiming used the neo-confucian terminology and one can be confused by it. There are few texts written by other (Southern) daoists where Elixir belongs more to Ming than to Xing. Golden Elixir can be attained by fusion of them so anyway Ming work must be there. If one wants/likes/dislikes it or not.

If you don't like daoist approach then you can talk about bindhus etc but this work must be done either way

[SodaChanh]

31 minutes ago, Antares said:

Ming work must be there

 

This is your belief. 

 

From Awakening to the Tao by Liu I-Ming 

 

Quote

Decline in Taoism
There has been a decline in the conditions of Taoism. How many Taoists know the true self? Instead they take fish-eyes for pearls. Many of them regard plant products as fruits of immortality. All of them have abandoned the normal and taken a liking to the strange. All of them seek happiness, but instead they bring on disaster. All who meet enlightened guides but do not humble themselves have already locked the door by themselves.

 

If you have no interest in the true self what are you doing in the Daoist section? 

[Antares]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

Certainly anyone who has ever taken up meditation for at least 20 minutes most days will see within a month that they are calmer, less reactive, kinder, etc.

Yeah, I remember 20 years ago I used to visit Buddhist Center where the taught Loving Kindness. The method was to visualize light coming from top into the body and then sitting in this light. When I asked teacher is not it a fake light she replied that it does not matter in the beginning. Just imaging it and it will do the work. To me it seems to be form of psychology but might help to be calmer. But later one will lose Ming with it. Of course they did not forget to charge people after class 

[SodaChanh]

42 minutes ago, Antares said:

Liu Yiming used the neo-confucian terminology and one can be confused by it.

The confusion is yours. 

[Antares]

7 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

This is your belief.

Read daoist texts if you are interested in neidan. I have no goal to convince someone here

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Antares said:

Again - this is NOT Dao attainment  yet. You can not attain it without step by step transformation stages. Daoist theory is first you complete yuan qi and jing restoration and then join it with yuan shen and this is continuous process.

 

I wonder if we could agree on a definition of Xing? So, this is just a starting place, but what do you think of this article that contrasts the very views we are talking about? I have highlighted some points I find interesting... you probably have your own.

 

Quote

In Taoist Internal Alchemy texts, Xing (性) and Ming (命) are very important concepts. These two terms have varying definitions within Taoist texts, causing some confusion for those studying Internal Alchemy. In the simplest definition, Xing is a reference to our Nature, our mind, consciousness, or Spirit (神, Shen), and Ming is a reference to our Life, the energy and breath that animates all life and our body (氣, Qi).

 

Within Internal Alchemy teachings, two primary practices were developed:

Cultivating the mind with the intent of removing the obstacles preventing the cultivator from “awakening to one’s true nature,” or sometimes called, “entering the Void or Tao.” Once awakened, one is seen as having obtained the Elixir (丹, Dan).

Cultivating the Three Treasures—Essence (精, Jing), Breath (氣, Qi), and Spirit (神, Shen)—which are considered the ingredients (or components) of the attainment of Immortality (the Elixir).

These two teachings are divided into Xing (#1) and Ming (#2).

But even with these two divisions made, the Internal Alchemy teachings all agree that Xing and Ming can only be realized (awakened to) in conjunction with one another.

 

A simple way of understanding this is, Xing is developed through the meditation practices of Sitting and Forgetting (坐望, Zuo Wang, Taoism) and Chan (禪, Zen Buddhism).

 

Ming is developed through the various methods of Nourishing-Life Arts (養生術, Yang Sheng Shu) of which cultivating the Three Treasures is a major part.

 

Internal alchemy also views Xing and Ming in terms of being foundational (體, Ti—Xing) and operational (用, Yong—Ming) respectively.

 

Meaning that Ming is the operational because it contains the practices. But none of that means anything unless you have Xing, the ability to have focus, this meditative aspect. That's why they say Taiji is meditation in motion. Anybody can move, but that doesn't mean anything if it's not grounded in the ability to go into deep states of focus and meditation.

 

The Ming is the movement of Qi in the body, Xing is the Spirit being awakened in the body. So Ming and Xing in turn are synonymous with Mind (心, Xin) and Body (身, Shen).

 

So when we read the old Buddhist adage, “First in the mind [Xing], then the body [Ming]; first in the body [Ming], then in the mind [Xing],” Taoist internal alchemy is Ming, and Zen is Xing.

 

In the book Jade Tablets on Nature and Life (性命圭旨, Xing Ming Gui Zhi) by Yin Zhenren (尹真人, first printed in 1615 CE), he said “Xing (性) is the Original Mind (元神, Yuan Shen) and Ming (命) is the Original Essence (元精, Yuan Jing).”

 

So, according to Yin Zhenren the two most important aspects of spiritual cultivation (Internal Alchemy) are dependent on the awakening of Spirit (Shen) and the development of Essence (Jing). For example, when we meditate the mental clarity required is Xing, and the attainment of tranquility of the body is Ming.

 

Both the Shen and Jing are reliant on the Qi, as Qi is required for the function of both Spirit and Essence. This is seen in the Internal Alchemy explanation of stages that “Jing is to be transmuted into Qi, and then Qi transmuted into Shen.”*

 

* The Four Stages of Internal Alchemy are: 1) Laying the Foundation or sometimes called “Replenishing the Three Treasures.” 2) Transmuting Jing into Qi. 3) Transmuting Qi into Shen. 4) Entering the Void. Stages 1 thru 3 are exclusively Taoist Internal Alchemy methods. Stage 4 belongs to Sitting and Forgetting, and Zen. Zen begins and starts with the 4th Stage without preparation of the body, mind, and spirit as does Taoist Internal Alchemy.

 

From:  https://www.sanctuaryoftao.org/blog/xing-and-ming

 

Some questions about the paragraphs above, if you feel you'd like to answer:

 

What does "awakened" mean here:

 

Quote

Once awakened, one is seen as having obtained the Elixir (丹, Dan).

 

Awakened to what? Is that awakening persistent?

 

Quote

So, according to Yin Zhenren the two most important aspects of spiritual cultivation (Internal Alchemy) are dependent on the awakening of Spirit (Shen) and the development of Essence (Jing). For example, when we meditate the mental clarity required is Xing, and the attainment of tranquility of the body is Ming.

 

I suppose I may have accidentally developed Ming, but resting the mind in clarity and tranquility are effortless for me at this point. I agree that both of these aspects are important, and they are mentioned as important in mind training, but the tranquility isn't arrived at by any physical/dietary/body practice I am aware of, except perhaps working with the breath? 

 

Quote

4) Entering the Void. Stages 1 thru 3 are exclusively Taoist Internal Alchemy methods. Stage 4 belongs to Sitting and Forgetting, and Zen. Zen begins and starts with the 4th Stage without preparation of the body, mind, and spirit as does Taoist Internal Alchemy.

 

Would you agree with this? Is "Entering the Void" the final stage of development, then, or?

 

-

 

11 hours ago, Antares said:

I dont have yang shen and can't say now but they say if you have it you can travel in it in physical world. This is like subtle body of light. If you say you have DAOIST realization you must be able to do it. Can you?

 

I'm not sure what you mean here, honestly. You mean can I teleport to other locations in a something like a spirit body? Do you mean:

 

Quote

...the belief that it is possible to prepare, with the aid of botanical, zoological, mineralogical and above all chemical, knowledge, drugs or elixirs [dan (丹)] which will prolong human life beyond old age [壽老; shoulao], rejuvenating the body and its spiritual parts so that the adept [真人; zhenren] can endure through centuries of longevity [長生; changsheng], finally attaining the status of eternal life and arising with etherealised body a true Immortal [升仙; sshengxian].[13]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangsheng_(Daoism)

 

From my perspective this body as a truly separate thing is a delusion. Regardless of what I do, it is impermanent like all things. What IS immortal is the awareness (which I would now identify as) that is omnipresent and exists outside of time and space. 

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

Yeah, I remember 20 years ago I used to visit Buddhist Center where the taught Loving Kindness. The method was to visualize light coming from top into the body and then sitting in this light. When I asked teacher is not it a fake light she replied that it does not matter in the beginning. Just imaging it and it will do the work. To me it seems to be form of psychology but might help to be calmer. But later one will lose Ming with it. Of course they did not forget to charge people after class 

 

I was taught Tonglen, which is also a visualization exercise, for the same purpose. I would agree with the teacher - whether you think you are literally manipulating things isn't that important.  My experience is that such things can be much simpler.

 

What is "Ming" and how does one lose it in this scenario? 

 

Huh. I have occasionally donated to teachers, but never paid for teachings directly. It's only my opinion, but everything one could need to know to become enlightened is available for free, including the teachers that might lead one there.

[Antares]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Once awakened, one is seen as having obtained the Elixir (丹, Dan).

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Awakened to what? Is that awakening persistent?

It was written by Western scholar. Best to read authentic texts. I can give other references to what is called the Elixir and Golden Elixir

Even Liu Yiming wrote different things and as example:

https://www.goldenelixir.com/terms/jindan.html

Quote

Conjunction of Nature (xing), Emotions (qing), Essence (jing), Breath (qi), and Spirit (shen). An image of the return to Unity.

⊛ When the three families see one another, the Infant coalesces. 三家相見結嬰兒。 Comm. Liu Yiming: When the four images join one another, and when the five agents gather together, then Nature, Emotions, Essence, Breath, and Spirit coagulate and coalesce one with the other. This is why it says, “When the three families see one another, the Infant coalesces”. . . . It is called the Infant, the One Breath prior to Heaven, the Embryo of Sainthood, the Golden Elixir. 和合四象，攢簇五行，則性、情、精、氣、神凝結。. . . 是云三家相見。. . . 名曰嬰兒，又曰先天一氣，又曰聖胎，又曰金丹。 (Awakening to Reality, "Regulated Verses", poem 14)

So Xing is just "original true suchness, a singular radiant spirit":
何謂之性？元始真如，一靈炯炯是也

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/性命圭旨/元集

 

This is not awakening to Dao yet. Closer to it? Yes, but not the Dao itself. Dao exists before Qian and Kun divison, but Xing relates to Qian. As for how the get Golden Elixir try to translate and understand

Quote

若夫至聖神人，能知道體太極之所以判，能知死生根本之所以始，能知乾坤陰陽之所以乘，能知天玄地牡之所以交，是以法乾坤之體，效坎離之用，握陰陽之柄，過生死之關，取坎中之陽，填離中之陰，離陰既實，則複純白為乾矣。 斯時補足乾元，複全渾敦，以全親之所生，以全天之所賦，是為囫囫圇圇一個完人也。再加向上功夫，精進不怠，則金丹成而聖胎圓，聖胎圓而真人現。真人出現，變化無窮，隱顯莫測，而與鐘、呂、王、馬並駕，亦又何難？

link is the same as above

 

I have question to you - what is the Infant and Embryo in your lineage? 

[stirling]

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

So Xing is just "original true suchness, a singular radiant spirit"

 

A brief experience of it, or a permanent experience? Just trying to clarify. Honestly, the terminology is a baffling.

 

What does:

 

Quote

An image of the return to Unity.

 

Sounds like a glimpse? I'm trying to understand what you are getting at.

 

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

This is not awakening to Dao yet. Closer to it? Yes, but not the Dao itself. Dao exists before Qian and Kun divison, but Xing relates to Qian. As for how the get Golden Elixir try to translate and understand

link is the same as above

 

Is it a KIND of awakening? A glimpse? What is awakened to?

 

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

I have question to you - what is the Infant and Embryo in your lineage? 

 

I'm not sure what the terminology is intended to point to. Not sure if this is similar - in Zen there are kensho and satori:

 

Quote

Kenshō (Rōmaji; Japanese and classical Chinese: 見性, Pinyin: jianxing, Sanskrit: dṛṣṭi-svabhāva) is an East Asian Buddhist term from the Chan / Zen tradition which means "seeing" or "perceiving" (見) "nature" or "essence" (性),[1][2][note 1] or 'true face'.[web 1][5][page needed] It is usually translated as "seeing one's [true] nature," with "nature" referring to buddha-nature, ultimate reality, the Dharmadhatu. The term appears in one of the classic slogans which define Chan Buddhism: to see oneʼs own nature and accomplish Buddhahood (見性成佛).

 

Kenshō is an initial insight or sudden awakening, not full Buddhahood.[6] It is to be followed by further training which deepens this insight, allows one to learn to express it in daily life and gradually removes the remaining defilements.[7][8][9]

 

The Japanese term kenshō is often used interchangeably with satori, which is derived from the verb satoru,[10] and means "comprehension; understanding".[web 2][note 2][note 3]

 

Terminology

The Chinese Buddhist term jianxing (simplified Chinese: 见性; traditional Chinese: 見性; pinyin: jiànxìng; Wade–Giles: chien-hsing) compounds:

 

jian 見 "see, observe, meet with, perceive";

 

xing 性 "(inborn) nature, character, personality, disposition, property, quality, gender"; also 'true face'.[web 1][note 4]

History

 

Buddhist monks who produced Sanskrit-Chinese translations of sutras faced many linguistic difficulties:

They chose Chinese jian 見 to translate Sanskrit dṛś दृश् "see, look", and the central Buddhist idea of dṛṣṭi दृष्टि "view, seeing (also with the mind's eye), wisdom, false view".

 

Translators used xing 性 or zixing 自性 "self-nature" for Sanskrit svabhāva स्वभाव "intrinsic nature, essential nature".

 

Thus, jianxing was the translation for dṛṣṭi-svabhāva, to "view one's essential nature".

 

The term is found in the Chinese Platform Sutra (c. 8th century; 2, Prajñā "wisdom, understanding").[14]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenshō

 

Perhaps this bit is helpful:

 

Quote

The Chinese Buddhist term jianxing (simplified Chinese: 见性; traditional Chinese: 見性; pinyin: jiànxìng; Wade–Giles: chien-hsing) compounds:

 

jian 見 "see, observe, meet with, perceive";

 

xing 性 "(inborn) nature, character, personality, disposition, property, quality, gender"; also 'true face'.[web 1][note 4]

History

 

Here, jian would be "kensho" the glimpse of enlightenment, and xing would be the complete realization, "satori". After "satori", the realization gradually deepens until the "suchness" is a full time experience. Is this helpful?

 

[cake1234566]

@stirling

I have a lot of respect for Zen buddhism, have you read Hakuin's Yasenkanna? He describes neidan as a separate practice that is useful for supernatural health and longevity but that buddhism is supremely important for the spirit

He demonstrates solid knowledge in neidan and is regarded as one of the Zen patriarchs, he writes that the two methods are not the same

https://otani.repo.nii.ac.jp/record/8339/files/EBNVol.34No.1_OCR_05.pdf

 

The stages of internal alchemy aren't meant to be taken literally, most of the info about neidan that's public are ways for initiated practitioners to remember information from systems that they've already received oral instructions in

I've seen instructions from a few schools on refining spirit into emptiness and they were all different methods of doing a very specific thing, not involving quiet sitting except in its normal role of "bathing and cleansing"

On another note fabrizio pregadio is a better source for translations https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_stages.html
Stuart alve olson has a strange habit of shaping translations according to his own beliefs

 

Edited 9 hours ago by cake1234566
pdf link

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, stirling said:

A brief experience of it, or a permanent experience? 

It depends on stage. There is reverse, when it happens it is permanent, but anyway this is not final realization. That is why one needs Embryo, only Yang Shen can enter and experience Dao in my opinion. As for "image" IMO this is like small copy of Dao within but can not say much yet, sorry