Buddhist/Daoist Views Related to Xing/Dharmakaya(Split From What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?)

[Antares]

7 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Because this section is more interesting.

I recall how I tried to discuss some Daoist concepts there, and they told me that I had to stop writing about it,  otherwise, I would be banned. So now I'm trying to avoid that section of the forum

[Forestgreen]

On 2025-12-27 at 8:47 PM, cake1234566 said:

not something to be found pre-existing as in vajrayana (primordial purity)

I would disagree with that. The golden elixir is pre heaven, so exist before manifestation.

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

I recall how I tried to discuss some Daoist concepts there, 

It is difficult, mixing terms. Some cross over better than others.

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

How can this mental masturbation (lucid dreaming) produce Zhen Qi? 

 

The original conversation was about "Xing"... YOU brought up Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's "Dream Yoga" which hase nothing to do with lucid dreaming, but rather with resting in "Xing" or "Rigpa"- this is what "Dream Yoga is intended to help realize. 

 

3 hours ago, Antares said:

More over that, that is direct path to the Yin reality and entities possession

 

What is the direct path to the "Yin" reality? Entities? 

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Antares said:

Here we have Buddhist section on the TDB. I personally do not go there and do not impose my ideas there, why so many Buddhist/Esoteric people come to this discussion and impose their ideas here? 

 

This is a topic about where Daoism meets Buddhism. Seems like you'd expect to see some Buddhist content here, no? If you aren't interested in the topic, go post on a more fascinating topic perhaps?

[Antares]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

The original conversation was about "Xing"... YOU brought up Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's "Dream Yoga" which hase nothing to do with lucid dreaming, but rather with resting in "Xing" or "Rigpa"

That's the final goal of it and this is fine but devil is in details.

Quote

Draw your attention to the throat chakra. Visualize, in the chakra, a deep red, luminous lotus made of light. Generate the felt experience of peace. Merge with peace. Gradually let go of images and imaginings as you allow yourself to fall asleep in peace.

Daoist methods don't use visualizations bcoz it can't produce zhen qi. Also how can one see the chakra and lotus there if all channels are not active yet? Just concentration on points of physical body can create blocks in channels and even lead to deviations

Also original conversation was about Xing AND Ming. And it was not me who brought up TWR theory here.

 

Quote

Once you are lucid in the dreams of night, there is literally no limit to what you can experience. Use this freedom to transform or remove boundaries in the mind and identity. Become a giant or a tree, a bird or the sun. Change your gender. Meet the Buddha.

Change my gender? Meet fake Buddha? Definitely nothing to do with Daoist methods, I am sorry

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

That's the final goal of it and this is fine but devil is in details.

 

Dzogchen, Cha'n and Zen see NO details... no "devil". It is entirely possible to go directly to resting in Xing/Shikantaza/Dzogchen/Zuowang immediately, though it may take a realized teacher to point it out. Does the Dao De Ching have any "details" or intermediary practices?

 

Quote

Daoist methods don't use visualizations bcoz it can't produce zhen qi. Also how can one see the chakra and lotus there if all channels are not active yet? Just concentration on points of physical body can create blocks in channels and even lead to deviations

 

Great realization is happening all the time without ANY of that in Daoist and Buddhist practices. What is your real interest - chakras and energy channels or lifting the veil on the base nature of reality, and being in alignment and ending delusion? 

 

Quote

Also original conversation was about Xing AND Ming. And it was not me who brought up TWR theory here.

 

That was not the point of my quote from that teacher.. Please go back and look. You have reduced his teaching to that single point. It is the least of his points from a teaching perspective, so, yes it was you who brought his dream work. 

 

Quote

Change my gender? Meet fake Buddha? Definitely nothing to do with Daoist methods, I am sorry

 

..or mine, but you miss the point. He mentions this because it is a way to realize that identity is "empty". Further, it is his deeper teaching that enlightened mind is present in ALL mental states (waking/dreaming/deep sleep) that is truly useful, a realization I can verify myself. Fake Buddha? There AREN'T any. It's all Tao, my friend.

 

What is it that you are hoping for with your practice?

[Antares]

14 minutes ago, stirling said:

Dzogchen, Cha'n and Zen see NO details... no "devil". It is entirely possible to go directly to resting in Xing/Shikantaza/Dzogchen/Zuowang immediately, though it may take a realized teacher to point it out. Does the Dao De Ching have any "details" or intermediary practices?

I believe Daoist and Buddhist practitioners see the DDJ differently. But correct translation of it matters. The problem is that was written in old Chinese that far not every  modern person can understand. Also I can not say that all these modern versions of  Dzogchen, Cha'n and Zen are the same. Non - dual state can be the same but what matters is what you do next after it has been achieved. Some people tend to think that all teachings are the same. In fact they are not.

22 minutes ago, stirling said:

Great realization is happening all the time without ANY of that in Daoist and Buddhist practices. What is your real interest - chakras and energy channels or lifting the veil on the base nature of reality, and being in alignment and ending delusion? 

I am not sure what you mean by great realization. You said Buddhists understand everything they do. That is why I asked you about your understanding of Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya. I would say your understanding of it does not fit Daoists masters understanding of it - that is what I said. Buddhist people only say that they reach "liberation" but in fact...

 

[Forestgreen]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

He mentions this because it is a way to realize that identity is "empty". 

And therefore useful. We all get attached to name and form, and any method that aids in releasing that bond is useful (until it is not). 

 

Isn't that one of the reasons that energetic practices can be useful? We dissolve the attchment to the obvious and material, and gradually learn to sense (and identify with) something more sublte. And then (rinse, repeat).

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Antares said:

I believe Daoist and Buddhist practitioners see the DDJ differently. But correct translation of it matters. 

 

How do YOU see the DDJ?

 

Quote

Also I can not say that all these modern versions of  Dzogchen, Cha'n and Zen are the same.

 

...not the SAME, but pointing to the same thing. Zuowang is also the same. They are all ways of framing a much deeper understanding that is free of qualities.

 

Quote

Non - dual state can be the same but what matters is what you do next after it has been achieved.

 

Non-duality isn't a "state" it is actually primordial - omnipresent. It is the Dao, it is Rigpa, it is Brahman - reality as it is. Truly, no "person" achieves it, and if they understand it fully (not just a glimpse, or something they see sometimes in meditation) the realization that there IS no doer. In fact, it also clarifies our relationship to time/space/self. Where there is complete and permanent realization, worrying about what happens next isn't high on the agenda. Things have a way of taking care of themselves (the Dao does that).

 

Quote

Some people tend to think that all teachings are the same. In fact they are not.

 

The teachings aren't. What is revealed after practice and with insight is, in many traditions.

 

Quote

I am not sure what you mean by great realization.

 

Using your own definition, what do "enlightenment", the "Dao", the "dharmakaya", or "Xing" mean to you? 

 

What I mean by realization is "gnosis", which is quite different from "knowing":

 

Quote

Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (γνῶσις, gnōsis, f.).[1][2] The term was used among various Hellenistic religions and philosophies in the Greco-Roman world.[6] It is best known for its implication within Gnosticism,[1] where it signifies a spiritual knowledge or insight into humanity's real nature as divine, leading to the deliverance of the divine spark within humanity from the constraints of earthly existence.

 

Quote

Gnosis is a feminine Greek noun which means "knowledge" or "awareness." It is often used for personal knowledge as opposed to intellectual knowledge...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis

 

It's isn't something you read and understand, or even do a practice and come to understand, it is a sudden perspective shift that reveals permanently the non-dual nature of reality. It dashes all of your beliefs about how things are, and rewrites your understanding of reality. 

 

Quote

You said Buddhists understand everything they do.

 

Where did I say that? I think you must have misunderstood me.

 

Many Buddhists without realization do things they don't fully understand - the "goal" of realization isn't something an everyday student of any religion or set of practices can understand. Only someone who has realization could possibly have some understanding of non-duality.

 

In any case, it isn't important to defend Buddhists. What we are talking about isn't Buddhist OR Daoist. 

 

Quote

I would say your understanding of it does not fit Daoists masters understanding of it - that is what I said. Buddhist people only say that they reach "liberation" but in fact...

 

What is it you are trying to get across with the video? I'm not sure I get your point.

 

-

 

I asked you this earlier:

 

9 hours ago, stirling said:

What is it that you are hoping for with your practice?

 

I'm asking again because I am really curious about how you might answer.

 

...sorry, one more:

 

Do you meditate? Are you familiar with the Zuowang practice?

[Antares]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Non-duality isn't a "state" it is actually primordial - omnipresent. It is the Dao, it is Rigpa,

It is not Dao yet. But might be state of Wuji. For authentic Daoist methods this is a requirement for further cultivation.

In majority of Buddhist schools this is the point where they stop practicing.

But as I said earlier in some authentic Tibetan schools they have authentic tummo that is not what you can find in western schools which in fact are commercial projects where one can get some benefits too. So I would not say they are completely wrong

It depends what you are looking for

Edited yesterday at 06:43 PM by Antares

[Antares]

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

Do you meditate? Are you familiar with the Zuowang practice?

If you mean this one https://yang-sheng.com/?p=859

I would say his hands position is wrong. As for seated practices I wrote about it here many times.

 

Edited yesterday at 05:46 PM by Antares

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, Antares said:

If you mean this one https://yang-sheng.com/?p=859

I would say his hands position is wrong. As for seated practices I wrote about it here many times.

 

what’s wrong with his hand positions?

[Forestgreen]

His variety if that mudra differs from (insert style here). It differs from how I do it, and most likely he has another goal with it. 

[stirling]

13 hours ago, Antares said:

It is not Dao yet. But might be state of Wuji. For authentic Daoist methods this is a requirement for further cultivation.

In majority of Buddhist schools this is the point where they stop practicing.

 

 

Distinctions like this don't exist where there is realization. Do things change after realization? Of course, but ONLY in the aspect that they deepen insight - not that the practice changes the realization, it only deepens it.

 

 

Quote

But as I said earlier in some authentic Tibetan schools they have authentic tummo that is not what you can find in western schools which in fact are commercial projects where one can get some benefits too. So I would not say they are completely wrong

It depends what you are looking for

 

Nonsense. I have seen tummo taught by Tibetan masters that walked from Tibet to India in the 50's. Tummo is still being taught. Either way, it is not a central teaching. No amount of energy teachings will result in realization. There ARE teachings that are suggested after realization, but they don't change the initial insight, they only deepen it. 

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Antares said:

If you mean this one https://yang-sheng.com/?p=859

I would say his hands position is wrong. As for seated practices I wrote about it here many times.

 

 I mean THIS one:

 

Quote

Zuowang (Chinese: 坐忘; pinyin: zuòwàng) is a classic Daoist meditation technique, described as "a state of deep trance or intense absorption, during which no trace of ego-identity is felt and only the underlying cosmic current of the Dao is perceived as real."[1] According to Louis Komjathy, this is one term for Daoist apophatic meditation, which also goes by various other names in Daoist literature, such as "quiet sitting" (靜坐; jìngzuò), "guarding the one" (守一; shǒuyī), "fasting the heartmind" (心齋; xīnzhāi), and "being with simplicity or sitting with oblivion" (抱朴; bàopǔ).

 

Zuowang instructions can be seen in classic Taoist texts from as early as the Chinese Warring States Period, such as the Zhuangzi. The term also appears in the title of an influential manual from the Tang dynasty (618–907), the Zuowanglun, and continues to inform Daoist contemplative practice today.[3] - Wikipedia

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuowang

 

Done properly, you could have your hands wherever you like and still experience 100% presence and stillness. Such practice is complete being-ness, and is not different from enlightenment or the Dao itself, which is the point of the practice. With some pointing from a realized teacher, it is possible to completely realize the non-dual nature of reality in such practices.

 

-

 

I remain curious about your direct answer to my questions. I hope you will consider answering them.

[Forestgreen]

16 minutes ago, stirling said:

 No amount of energy teachings will result in realization. 

That is, of course, not true. 

A more precise statement would be that no amount of post heaven energetic work, in it self, will result in realization. But used as a bridge towards pre heaven energetics, it is as good as any other bridge. 

 

But since you have stated that you weren't taught about red and white bindu, this is outside of your experience. Which is fine, much of that you write about is outside of my experience, and some of it I have doubts about. 

[SodaChanh]

From Liu I-Ming, Awakening to the Tao (good book on internal alchemy). 

 

Quote

Ignorant people who do not know the metaphors used on the Way make wild assumptions and follow wilder practices. This is what is meant by the saying that if there is no seed of reality in the cauldron, it is like boiling an empty pot. Ancient immortals have said not to cling to this body as the Way; you should know there is a body beyond the body. Worldlings who work on their physical bodies, as well as those who worry about their ovens and minerals, are fools.

 

The body beyond the body is a pointer to your true nature Consciousness / Awareness / Beingness / Dao. 

 

Nothing can change the fact this is what you are right now. If you do energy work you will still be Consciousness.

 

What is observing the change in your body? The changeless. 

[stirling]

51 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

That is, of course, not true. 

A more precise statement would be that no amount of post heaven energetic work, in it self, will result in realization. But used as a bridge towards pre heaven energetics, it is as good as any other bridge. 

 

But since you have stated that you weren't taught about red and white bindu, this is outside of your experience. Which is fine, much of that you write about is outside of my experience, and some of it I have doubts about. 

 

It is entirely possible to have complete realization without energetic work, though energetic phenomena may sometimes be present. It is fine, and indeed wise, to doubt the role of ANY practices as the "cause" of realization. It is obvious at the moment of realization, that there WAS no cause, though, paradoxically, practices seem to precede it. This may be more to do with intent than the actual practices themselves, except possibly (in my opinion) resting in "emptiness".

 

Any number of interesting phenomena and practices can be present before realization - in the end it isn't a practice that precipitates realization. There IS no prescription. 

[cake1234566]

Heres my opinion in a bit more detail now that i have some time to do a proper writeup

 

To enter into a productive

discussion I think that we need to define terms, what is the realization thats being discussed for each tradition?

 

The goal of neidan (well not really because there are stages beyond it but you know what i mean) is the formation of a spiritual immortal body which is not possible in any buddhist philosophy, as even gods are subject to reincarnation

 

Even within each tradition of buddhism realization is different, is bodhicitta the union of compassion and emptiness or the bliss coming from the winds abiding in the central channel leading to that union of compassion and emptiness?

See how its "the same" but the first isnt the same as the second in practical terms? There's alot of stuff like that

 

In vajrayana there are thousands of methods which are taught according to individual capacity, even advanced dzogchen contains physical asanas and energetic anatomy, spontaneous liberation is very hotly debated

 

In my opinion (and I acknowledge this isnt a mainstream opinion) you have to think of it like this

Teaching people to have a peaceful and compassionate mind is a wonderful practice, and saying that it can lead to buddhahood in one life quells the western mindset of seeking out the highest teachings

In buddhist cosmology this will also lead to deeper and deeper encounters with the dharma in future incarnations

 

The advanced practices of vajrayana that you would be taught on an extended retreat look very similar to neidan, physical yogas, deity yoga using the chakras and three channels, magical ritual and incantations, internal alchemic change of the body, and accessing the pure lights of consciousness leading to shamanic experiences

 

This is also taught at every level of the vajrayana path (ngondro is an introduction into everything listed above) in varying degrees

 

So in summary, there are buddhist views that are very close to neidan and those that are completely different, buddhism is so large that you can honestly find whatever views you want in there

 

Certain neidan lineages I would say arguably compose their own branch of esoteric buddhism lol

[Antares]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Distinctions like this don't exist where there is realization. Do things change after realization? Of course, but ONLY in the aspect that they deepen insight - not that the practice changes the realization, it only deepens it.

WHAT IS REALIZATION in your opinion? You say about Buddhist understanding of it. That's fine. No problem for me you have your own opinion

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Nonsense. I have seen tummo taught by Tibetan masters that walked from Tibet to India in the 50's. Tummo is still being taught. Either way, it is not a central teaching

Okay, what lineage IN THE WEST do they represent now? I would like to talk to a person from that lineage personally but not to someone who only saw walking master

[Antares]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 With some pointing from a realized teacher, it is possible to completely realize the non-dual nature of reality in such practices.

No every non - dual state is the same. It depends what they experience - it can be emptiness or fullness. 

Some buddhists enter the emptiness, but this is not yang shen realization. 

[Antares]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

Done properly, you could have your hands wherever you like and still experience 100% presence and stillness.

Read this thread if you want to see the difference between daoist and buddhist methods

Quote

These are such methods as:

1. Fasting.

2. Starvation.

3. Gathering of qi.

4. Saliva swallowing.

5. Sexual abstinence.

6. Forgoing tastes.

7. Chan meditation.

8. Silence.

9. Awareness.

Thank you for your advice but I personally am not interested in buddhist methods.

 

[MIchael80]

3 hours ago, cake1234566 said:

Heres my opinion in a bit more detail now that i have some time to do a proper writeup

 

To enter into a productive

discussion I think that we need to define terms, what is the realization thats being discussed for each tradition?

 

The goal of neidan (well not really because there are stages beyond it but you know what i mean) is the formation of a spiritual immortal body which is not possible in any buddhist philosophy, as even gods are subject to reincarnation

 

Even within each tradition of buddhism realization is different, is bodhicitta the union of compassion and emptiness or the bliss coming from the winds abiding in the central channel leading to that union of compassion and emptiness?

See how its "the same" but the first isnt the same as the second in practical terms? There's alot of stuff like that

 

In vajrayana there are thousands of methods which are taught according to individual capacity, even advanced dzogchen contains physical asanas and energetic anatomy, spontaneous liberation is very hotly debated

 

In my opinion (and I acknowledge this isnt a mainstream opinion) you have to think of it like this

Teaching people to have a peaceful and compassionate mind is a wonderful practice, and saying that it can lead to buddhahood in one life quells the western mindset of seeking out the highest teachings

In buddhist cosmology this will also lead to deeper and deeper encounters with the dharma in future incarnations

 

The advanced practices of vajrayana that you would be taught on an extended retreat look very similar to neidan, physical yogas, deity yoga using the chakras and three channels, magical ritual and incantations, internal alchemic change of the body, and accessing the pure lights of consciousness leading to shamanic experiences

 

This is also taught at every level of the vajrayana path (ngondro is an introduction into everything listed above) in varying degrees

 

So in summary, there are buddhist views that are very close to neidan and those that are completely different, buddhism is so large that you can honestly find whatever views you want in there

 

Certain neidan lineages I would say arguably compose their own branch of esoteric buddhism lol

Yes you are right about the immortal body in neidan but not about buddhism.

 

In vajrayana there is the accomplishment of the pure illusiory body (there is also a practice called illusiory body but this is something different).... seldom talked about.... here the very subtle mind merges with the yidam (which is called a deity but is not a deity but an enlightened buddha) and they get the body of that deity.

 

There are also some non public alchemical buddhist lineages in Burma and Myanmar that create light bodies. Freeform was in one of those lineages (highly esteemed ex member here). 😊

[cake1234566]

1 minute ago, MIchael80 said:

Yes you are right about the immortal body in neidan but not about buddhism.

 

In vajrayana there is the accomplishment of the pure illusiory body (there is also a practice called illusiory body but this is something different).... seldom talked about.... here the very subtle mind merges with the yidam (which is called a deity but is not a deity but an enlightened buddha) and they get the body of that deity.

 

There are also some non public alchemical buddhist lineages in Burma and Myanmar that create light bodies. Freeform was in one of those lineages (highly esteemed ex member here). 😊

Yes that's a whole can of worms so to speak haha

The energetic bodies in Vajrayana are (generally) not the same as the yang immortal body of neidan, the rainbow body would be the closest comparison as its cultivated via reverting the consciousness back to origin but that's a very specific thing that uses an entirely different cultivation method and usually means that the physical form disappears and that life on earth has concluded

I know that several neidan lineages deal with other energetic bodies prior to the ultimate yang immortal body but I won't talk too much about that as I haven't received direct transmission on the topic

In Vajrayana I think depending on the lineage you are often instructed to assume the form of the deity 24/7 and so the merging of consciousness happens on varying levels throughout your life as perceptions are purified, there are stories of people able to physically become the deity after sustained practice of this

 

Ultimately we only have one human experience of course and so someone that has achieved each energetic body according to the tradition could tell whether they're the same or not, I would personally say that they're different as the cultivation methods and reported effects are different

 

To put on my universalism cap for a moment, religious daoism which is incorporated in varying degrees in neidan lineages deals strongly with deity yoga similarly to vajrayana, in religious daoism deity yoga is said to be a way to access ling qi or "brahma qi" as one aims to assume the authority and energy of heaven

I'd say the siddhis from yidam practice are likely similar to the religious daoism line of development even if done for different purposes

 

South east asian esoteric buddhism is super interesting, i've found some really cool stuff from Vietnam that incorporates neidan and tantric buddhism from the shingon line into one lineage

Almost impossible to find good info from there without taking a trip and knowing the right people though haha

 

Nan huai-chin has some interesting writings about the similarities between neidan and vajrayana as he says that he's studied both (mostly untranslated in chinese however)

His view from what i've seen is also that they are two separate processes that can ultimately compliment each other