Chapter One of the TTC

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 1 The introduction of Tao
1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。
3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。
5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。
7. 此兩者同出而異名，
8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，
9. 眾妙之門。

Revised as of 2-27-12 / 9-28-23
1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both are regarded as unfathomable, the most occult and profound;
9. The gate of all changes.

[Cobie]

This thread is not in your PPD but in ‘Daoist  Discussion’’. Does that mean you are inviting comments? And if so, may those comments be of a highly critical nature? 

 

Edited Thursday at 07:56 PM by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Cobie said:

This thread is not in your PPD but in ‘Daoist  Discussion’’. Does that mean you are inviting comments? And if so, may those comments be of a highly critical nature? 

 

 I will leave it at Wu Wei!

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2025 at 1:30 AM, ChiDragon said:

1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

The DDJ did not have any punctuation.

Inserting a comma and a full stop is misleading.

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2025 at 1:30 AM, ChiDragon said:

1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

不 (bu4) not. The DDJ uses 不 for merely  ‘not’.

非 (fei2) gainsay; run counter to. 
 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2025 at 1:30 AM, ChiDragon said:

1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

The character in the MWD is 恆 (heng2).

常 (chang2) was a later substitution (due to the taboo on the use of emperor’s names). 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2025 at 1:30 AM, ChiDragon said:

1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

常 was a synonym of  恆 , it had the same meanings.  
The meanings of 恆 (heng2) had a temporal nature e.g. ordinarily; usually; what’s usually practiced.

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2025 at 1:30 AM, ChiDragon said:

1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

Classical Chinese was polysemic.

The translator can chose which meaning to use, in order to create coherent and meaningful English .

 

名 (ming2) had various meanings at the time, including ‘morals’.  
In this context imo it means ‘morals’.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

26 minutes ago, Cobie said:

名 (ming2) had various meanings at the time, including ‘morals’.  

In this context imo it means ‘morals’.

 

How in the world have you come up with this definition?

 

Based on your definition, the line should read as follows:

2. A moral that can be moraled is not an eternal moral.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… 2. A moral that can be moraled is not an eternal moral.

You  seem to have skipped a  few of my posts, they make for another translation.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

2. A moral that can be moraled is not an eternal moral.

Classical Chinese did not have any articles.

The translator can chose which one to put in order to create meaningful and smooth English (the).

 

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

2. A moral that can be moraled is not an eternal moral.

Classical Chinese did not distinguish between singular and plural.

The translator can chose (morals).

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

2. A moral that can be moraled is not an eternal moral.

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Classical Chinese was polysemic. 

 

One of the meanings of 名 (ming2) was the verb ‘to name’

 

Classical Chinese did not have verb inflections for tense, person, or number.

The translator can chose (named).

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

2. A moral that can be moraled is not an eternal moral.

 

On 25/12/2025 at 11:20 PM, Cobie said:

非 (fei2) gainsay; run counter to. 

gainsay

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

Classical Chinese does not distinguish between singular and plural (morals).

Thank you for reminding me being the lack of understanding of the Chinese language! However, I was concerned about the logic more than anything else.
 

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Again, please do carefully red all my posts:

 

I don't see any continuity in your posts. I am lost. I will stop here.

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

常 was a synonym of  恆 , it had the same meanings.  
The meanings of 恆 (heng2) had a temporal nature e.g. ordinarily; usually; what’s usually practiced.

what’s usually practiced

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Cobie said:

Classical Chinese did not have any articles. The translator can chose which one to put in, to create smooth English. I use ‘the’.

 

You have misdefined "name" as 'moral" to put in the sentence makes no logical sense. 

 

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… the sentence makes no logical sense. 

 

It’s all logical 

 

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

the morals

 

“that can be”

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

named

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

gainsay

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

what’s usually practiced

 

The morals that can be named, gainsay what’s usually practiced.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

The morals that can be named, gainsay what’s usually practiced.

My own translation is of course different, as I use another script (the much older MWD). 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/57074-ddj-ch1/?do=findComment&comment=1059176   

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

That was fun, like on the old OD forum. 
 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie